User talk:Alcarillo/Military brat

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[edit] Military brat

Alcarillo, here is a challenge for you. Find me a single case where somebody has been sued over the use of Military Brat or even complained about the usage. If the term were libelous, then news papers and magazines would not use it to describe people. But a quick search on the web will show that they do, and do so without fear. There is more concern over other terms (such as gay or athiest) than military brat. I also encourage you to look up the sources cited in the article or find ANY blog wherein somebody familiar with the term decries it. Take a look at these cites:[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] Trust me, the term is in NO WAY libelous, you are reading brat and assigning connotations that are not there in this context... note how many people support the category. None of the people who oppose it have identified themselves as brats---those who support it have.Balloonman 23:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I knew this would happen... Anyway, note in my comment that I use the conditional word "could". I never said calling someone a military brat was libelous. It's like calling someone a cracker for being born in the South. I know plenty of Southerners who proudly call themselves cracker. That doesn't mean I have the right to call them that. Also, if you look in those links you provided, the people talk about being a military brat in the first person, such is their prerogative. Not yours, not mine, or anyone else's. Alcarillo 00:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Alcarillo, I'm not trying to be offensive or rude, I'm just trying to demonstrate that in the military community, the use of brat in the context of military brat is accepted (as I've provided numerous support.) But I do have a compromise that I think might work. Third Culture Kids is a broader term that looks at the effects of kids who "followed their parents into a foriegn culture." It is definately a studied sociological term with definitive meaning. I've proposed creating a new category called Third Culture Kid and then creating a sub-category for military brats. That way anybody reading the category will instantly be able to see that it is referencing a studied specific term in a specific context---and not some hypothetical insult.Balloonman 21:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not about the possible pejorative connotations of "brat" (I'm intensely pro-military, personally.) It's about validity. I dispute the reasoning behind objectively labelling someone else a "military brat". See my latest comments in the CFD section: a great example is Jim Morrison. He is currently categorized as a military brat, but based on the description, research, analysis and observations contained in the article there's very little of the term that can be applied to him. Maybe the criteria in the article are wrong. Alcarillo 22:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That's acceptable... I do believe that it is still a valid category because like any subculture, there will be exceptions to the rule. The exceptions don't invalidate the overarching themes though and applicability to the larger population---which I think is more definable than many other categories that aren't as well defined/researched.Balloonman 23:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Having read over the Morrison article, he was definately a military brat. While military brats are, on a whole better behaved, some do rebel---and often experience delayed adolescence---especially with overly authoritative parents which he apparently had. ;-) Balloonman 23:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

But in the context of the article, is it correct to call him a military brat? Or Bob Marley? I would rather that the category tag be removed from their articles, but to my point below, perhaps the article needs to broadened if the category is going to stick. Pat Conroy is on the other side of that coin -- he is pretty much on record saying he's a military brat (I refer to the intro he wrote for that book, the name of which escapes me at the moment.) Alcarillo 00:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I responded to your comments in the CfD, but basically yes he does belong.User:Balloonman|Balloonman]] 18:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

unindent Alcarillo, I was wondering if your could take a look at the changes that I made to the discipline section in the article. I added some stuff about brats/tcks during their 20's/30's as it relates to discipline and behaviorial issues in adulthood.Balloonman 17:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the facts are still being made to fit the intent of the article. I've seen no reasonable evidence that someone like Jim Morrison, for instance, aside from parentage, would truly qualify as a military brat. He just doesn't fit the pattern -- and I mean this is the literal sense, with the commonly-held definition of a culture/subculture as a shared system of values as evidenced in observable patterns of behavior. The article goes to great lengths to catalogue those patterns, however it backs itself into a corner: if there's no way for children of the military to not have those values, then it's not really a subculture but a demographic.

At the same time, if you try to push for a case that Morrison and others like him (there are plenty here) are indeed military brats, then the argument that it's about identity (and thus a subculture) collapses. Here we're back to the problem of labeling someone a military brat, and I've repeatedly said that it cannot be done and still call it a subculture. That those who call themselves military brats exhibit objectively observable traits is not in question. But if you claim there is an objective criteria to being called a military brat, then all you are talking about is parentage.

I think there are more factors involved in what makes a person a military brat, which may be beyond the scope of a wikipedia article -- and certainly call the list of famous military brats into question. The career choice of the parent (which is a value-based decision, and values are a culture's glue) has to be taken into consideration, including the time the parent was in the military. Just thinking off the top of my head, compare the child of a 20-year Gunnery Sergeant to one whose parent was a 4-year enlistee. Or the son of a highly decorated Air Force fighter pilot versus the son of an ordinary Navy swab dishonorably discharged. Even so, there are still the choices the child makes throughout his/her life to take into account, which help shape a person's identity. There's very little shared identity-wise between Newt Gingrich and Michael Stipe, for example. Or between John McCain and Jim Morrison, even though they were both sons of senior Navy officers. Stipe and Morrison fail the litmus test. Alcarillo 22:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You've raised some excellent questions, that I'll have to think about and digest. I don't want to respond right now, because any such response would be off the cuff and not worthy of the questions you've posed. But thanks for the thoughts, I do appreciate being challenged in this ;-) Balloonman 00:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I've thought about this and explored the terms (Demographics v culture). And I think I understand why it is a subculture that is applicable to anybody whose parents are in the military. Military brats are raised in a specific culture---military culture---that has certain norms and expectations applied to the brat. Jim Morrison clearly was raised in that culture and it clearly had an impact on him. The fact that he doesn't fit the mold as an adult doesn't affect the cultural norms/expectations of his childhood. The subculture is how they grew up, not where they ended up, although where they ended up is affected by the lifestyles they lived as kids. So, I believe the solution is that the usage of "Subculture" as compared to "demographic" is accurate, but that the article needs to explain this better. Does this make sense? Again, you posed some EXCELLENT questions that really challenged me to think... Balloonman 09:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

But what about the child of someone who only serves for 4 years? By parental definition they're brats, but I don't think they're given enough time to live according to the norms of the subculture. Alcarillo 15:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

They would fit into the category similar to national guard/reservist kids. Yes, the child of a reservist is still, technically a military brat, but they may not identify with or acclimate to that culture. Short term brats are still included in MOST of the studies on the effects of growing up as a military brat (I only came across one study that explicitly was for career brats.) Just because the exposure is limited, doesn't mean that it is invalid or negligible. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything comparing "career brats" with short time brats. But, based on your observations, I'm going to add something to the article. If I can't find something authoritative, it will probably be a simple sentence pointing out the obvious. But ideally, I'll try to find something authoritative that discusses this.Balloonman 20:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military brat (U.S. subculture)

Alcarillo I would love it for you to give me your critique on the "niggling" problems with the article. I want to get this to FA status and a more critical point of view would be greatly appreciated. I already know two things I need to work on 1) Expand the intro and 2) Per comments above make sure that I include something along the lines of exceptions to the rule. But if you could give me any other advice on the article, I would gladly appreciate it. I did go through and better document the photos at your request.Balloonman 23:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The article veers a little too close to POV in that it seems to celebrate military brats more than exploring what makes it a valid subculture. Maybe it's because the article works a little too hard to sell "military brat" as distinct (true) and positive (debatable). The text reads somewhat like military brat = super-patriotic/anti-racist/smart-as-hell/disciplined/all-around-awesome-American. I'm being a little facetious, of course, but I do think the triumphalism should be toned down a bit. Or add an examination of the down-side of being a military brat: the constant moving, instability, reduction of parental influence during deployment, and so on. Alcarillo 00:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I hafta smile... one of the more belligerent voices on the CfD say its too negative ;-) I'll take a look at it and see what can be done. John Denver, who you cite was also on the record as declaring himself a brat, but I don't remember where I saw that. Balloonman 01:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

And therein lies the issue -- someone like Jim Morrison might not take too kindly on being labeled a military brat if it means he holds those values cited in the article. That's why I believe it's more of a self-identification, and a fluid one at that. Pat Conroy probably didn't have the greatest experience growing up a military brat, and he may not agree with the criteria in the article, but he has associated himself with the term Alcarillo 01:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Some may object to being labeled an "African American" because they don't like the term or don't like the culture surrounding it, but that doesn't stop us from having African American XXXXX categories. If you are part of a subculture/culture, you are part of that group whether you like it or not. But let's assume you are 100% correct, and Morrison were alive (he's dead right?) and he came out and blanketly said he wasn't a military brat. First, that would not change the fact that he was---the truth is always a defense against libel. He may not like it, but he is part of the subculture. Second, in order to prove libel, he'd have to show malicious intent, which he couldn't prove because it is not an offensive term.Balloonman 16:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

unindent we've digressed in this thread, I'd rather keep the CfD discussion separate, any other comments advice you have for the article? I do appreciate your contributions to the article and want to make it stronger, so any other things that you would like to see added/expanded? Any problems with the prose?Balloonman 18:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)