Talk:Al-Karaji

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[edit] Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn al-Husayn al-Karkhi - an Arab Mathematician

A great Arab mathematician who was born in Karkh, a suburb of baghdad. The name Al-Karkhi is used in older texts, so its more likely he was called al-karkhi and not al-karaji. It is not disputed that he lived most of his life in Baghdad(Iraq)- an Arab city- and during this time he wrote his three major works, Al-Badi' fi'l-hisab ("Wonderful on calculation"), Al-Fakhri fi'l-jabr wa'l-muqabala ("Glorious on algebra"), and Al-Kafi fi'l-hisab ("Sufficient on calculation").


Because of the large numbers of Nationalist Iranians in wikipedia, this info is likely to be deleted away in the main article. Thats why, I choose to post this Info here, where its protected from deletion. For more neutral info, please read the following articles:


By G. Donald Allen, Professor Director of Technology Assisted Instruction, Department of Mathematics Texas A&M University

By J J O'Connor and E F Robertson, School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland

Petkovšek, Wilf, Zeilberger; A.W.F. Edwards; Graham, Knuth, Patashnik; Richard Stanley; A.W.F. Edwards; Benjamin and Quinn; Roger B. Nelsen.

Jidan 18:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually Jidan, the very source you posted above from McMaster uses the word Karaji, not Karkhi. And it says:
"The significance is that Karaj is a city in Iran and if the mathematician's name is al-Karaji then certainly his family were from that city. Historians seem divided as to which of these interpretations (karaji or Karkhi) is correct...but al-Karaji, the version which is most often used in texts today, was suggested as most likely by della Vida in 1933." Also supported by:
    • Biography in Dictionary of Scientific Biography (New York 1970-1990).
    • R Rashed, The development of Arabic mathematics : between arithmetic and algebra (London, 1994).
Merely living in baghdad is not a reason for being Arab. Otherwise we'd apply the same reasoning to Khwarazmi.
And besides, living in Baghdad is not synonymous to being Arab. Baghdad itself was designed by Persians anyway. The Lingua Franca was merely Arabic. Like New York today.
Not to mention that the same source says: "However, at some later point in his career, al-Karaji left Baghdad to live in what are described as the "mountain countries". And where do you think that means?--Zereshk 20:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

We need Persian sources on him, not Greek and Arab --Kash 18:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

The standard approach is to place references at the end ("There are two basic formats for external links. The most common is to add a list of external links at the end of an article. Put here, in list form, any web sites that you have used or recommend for readers of the article. The standard format for these is to have a level 2 header (i.e. == Header ==) named "External links" followed by a bullet list of links." Wikipedia:External links); reverting that change with the misleading edit summary "don't remove references" isn't acceptable (especially when it includes a blind revert of other edits, such as tidying of the format of other references).

The second, less common, form is to embed the links in the text. Southern Comfort has done neither, but has used the less appropriate method of references. If there's a good reason for using anything other than the usual form, could the reasons be given here? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al-Karaji is Persian

Numerous authoritative sources have been cited that Al-Karaji is Persian. Please don't replace Persian with Islamic, if you want to be "comprehensive and accurate". --ManiF 05:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If he was born near Baghdad he was probably not Persian, and I don't see any evidence refuting the claim that he was born in Karkh. Since it's not clear if he was Arab or Persian, it's better to just call him a Muslim mathematician. AucamanTalk 05:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Read the published sources provided, he was born in Karaj and he is clearly called a Persian. --ManiF 05:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
There's no evidence that he was born in Karaj. We don't even know his exact name! In any case the article says he could be from somewhere near Baghdad, and if this is true he's not Persian. AucamanTalk 05:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, read the published sources provided. According to most accounts, Al-Karaji was born in Karaj. Regardless, the place of birth is irrelevant to this discussion, as Baghdad at that time was a multicultural city with a large Persian population. And, according to all the reputable sources, Karaji was a Persian. --ManiF 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed "he was probably Persian" to "most sources identify him as being Persian" - both still do not state "he was Persian", which would be POV. Cheers, Khoikhoi 07:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why MaiF insists on reverting my version, given that I'm agreeing with him (fallout from a conflict at another article, perhaps?). The version that I'm trying to preserve didn't replace "Persian" with "Islamic", it retained the two designations, putting the former later, and in the context of the dispute about his nationality (whilst also clearly stating that the modern consensus is that he was Persian).
I've now tried to re-organise the article again, still trying to omit the rash of unnecessary and unsightly footnotes in the summary, and placing the references at the end. I've tried to incorporate some of Khoikoi's additions and compromises. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Mel, please assume good faith. This issue has nothing to do with fallout from a conflict at another article. I have no problem with your current version which states the facts about his ethnicity, I'm just going to replace "Islamic" with "Muslim" and tidy up the reference section, you have an online shop listed there and two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 11:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I went to check the references, and I can't see either a commercial link or two references on the same line; are you thinking of an earlier version? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

http://binomial.csuhayward.edu is an online shop and a personal website. Also, the first two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 12:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The first two references are now correctly formatted, but [1] isn't a shop (I think that you've been confused by the jokey title). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Persian or Arab!?

There is a strong Persian presence in all these 'controversial' article that’s why the keep deleting every thing related to Arab people or Arabic language and sometimes Islam ....remember most of those 'Persian' scientists (if they all really were Persian) studied in Baghdad, Cairo or Damascus and the majority of their work (and sometimes all of it) has been written in ARABIC Under the Arab empire .Also in that time no one actually cared about being Persian or Arab they just say we are Muslims…..Aziz1005 00:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well actuallly Neshapur and Baghdad were the big two and Baghdad was metropolitan. There is a lot of Arab scientists as well. Also the Abbassids were run by Persians vaziers and later on controlled by Buyids and Seljuqs. Note Arabs , Persians and etc.. all contributed to the Islamic civilization. But a person from karaj (part of modern Tehran now) is a Persian Muslim just like someone from Cairo is an Arab Muslim. و السلام . --alidoostzadeh 02:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
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