Talk:Al-Ghazali

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Muslim scholars article assessment section, a WikiProject related to the Muslim scholars. note:the project includes non-Muslim scholars.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	Philosophy Portal This article is within the scope of the Philosophy WikiProject, which collaborates on articles related to philosophy and the history of ideas. Please read the instructions and standards for writing and maintaining philosophy articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents 1 HE WAS PERSIAN 2 Arab vs. Persian 3 Some comments in the article 4 Sources that he's Persian? 5 Alims 6 clear copyvio 7 Criticism

[edit] HE WAS PERSIAN

The article must state his ethnicity.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/g/ghazali.asp Dariush4444 23:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arab vs. Persian

was he a Arab??

He was muslim! Nationalism is a modern concept introduced to the islamic world by colonial powers.

Irrelevant, more quotations might be useful

---

Not my speciality, but my grasp of the history shows that since the C7th, when arab forces conquered Persia, there have been important questions over ethnicity within the Islamic world. I'd accept that Islam has generally been able to reach across national and racial divides, and that most Muslims accept the idea of a broad community of Islam, but the idea that race and nationality either don't matter within the Umma, or that dividions along these lines are all due to the perfidious colonials is ahistorical.---- Charles Stewart 09:54, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Postscript: wrt to above question: he was Persian. An afterthought on what I have written: I don't mean to say that muslims have no legitimate grievances against their colonisers, rather that, while divide and rule was an explicit, destructive strategy of European colonisers, its effectiveness depended upon there being divisions to exploit. ---- Charles Stewart 10:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think some people?! have this tendency to make all the great Muslim minds "Persian" when one cannot really tell with certainty. This is really very disturbing. -Serkan

I think it's disturbing to see the same thing from the Arab and Turks as well.--Zereshk 00:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

There needs to be some sort of consensus among all editors of Muslim scientists, as there are constant revert wars between Turks, Arabs, and Persians on whichever article you look at.Yuber^(talk) 01:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the only way is to acknowledge everyone and be inclusive. Thus Rumi can be identified as both Turkish and Persian. Or Ibn Rushd can be mentioned to be both Arab and Spanish. Or Zinuddin Zidan is both French and Arab. Only then can we avoid this stupid racial shit, and get to the more important stuff.--Zereshk 07:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Although Islam is inclusive in theory, the reality is more complex. Read for instance this essay: Blasphemy Before God: The Darkness of Racism In Muslim Culture.

This article is unsatisfactory IMHO. It appears to be confusing and contradictory. Was Ghazali an Asharite or wasn't he? I have heard him quoted as saying that "the study of science and philosophy was harmful because it would shake man's faith in God and undermine the Muslim religion." Did he shut the door on Islamic science or not? I'm no clearer on this question after having read the article. --BirgerLangkjer 11:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

His name, where he was born and where he died screams Persian! We're not talking about Baghdad or Basrah here, we're talking about Khorasan/Tus and Kharmathein. Alireza Hashemi 22:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments in the article

Al-Ghazali explained in his autobiography why he renounced his brilliant career and turned to Sufism. It was, he says, due to his realization that there was no way to certain knowledge or the conviction of revelatory truth except through Sufism. (This means that the traditional form of Islamic faith was in a very critical condition at the time.) This realization is possibly related to his criticism of Islamic philosophy.

The comment this means that the traditional ..." seems an original research to me.

"Through his own religious experience, he worked to revive the faith of Islam by reconstructing the religious sciences upon the basis of Sufsm, and to give a theoretical foundation to the latter under the influence of philosophy. Thus Sufism came to be generally recognized in the Islamic community."

I am not sure that Sufism was not recognised in Islamic community before Al-Ghazali.

[edit] Sources that he's Persian?

What are the sources that state he's Persian? Please provide some in the article, in accordance to WP:V. MB 14:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The article doesnt say "he's Persian" (or Arab or Turk).--Zereshk 00:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Yet he's included in a list of Persian scientists, funny, don't you think? MB 15:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

He has many Persian writings the most important one being Kimiya As-Sa'adat. He was also from Tus, which did not have any Arab colonies unlike Merv. So he was Persian since Arabs did not write in Persian. --Ali doostzadeh 18:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, "scientists" in those days would also include philosophers. Modern science did not exist at the time.--Zereshk 07:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alims

These "alim"s are belonging to Islam. Their Muslim identity is more important than their ethnic identity. There is no racism in Islam.

There is not MEANT to be any racism in Islam but you know as well as I that, that isn't the case with many Muslims who say they practice Islam. --JH

[edit] clear copyvio

This article is copied verbatim from here. As an example, two paragraphs from the article:

Al-Ghazali is one of the greatest Islamic theologians and mystical thinkers. He learned various branches of traditional Islamic religious sciences in his home town of Tus, Gorgan and Nishapur in the northern part of Iran. He was also involved in Sufi practices from an early age. Being recognized by Nizam al-Mulk, the vizir of the Seljuq sultans, he was appointed head of the Nizamiyyah College at Baghdad in AH 484/1091 CE. As the intellectual head of the Islamic community, he was busy lecturing on Islamic jurisprudence at the College, and also refuting heresies and responding to questions from all segments of the community. Four years later, however, al-Ghazali fell into a serious spiritual crisis and finally left Baghdad, renouncing his career and the world. After wandering in Syria and Palestine for about two years and finishing the pilgrimage to Mecca, he returned to Tus, where he was engaged in writing, Sufi practices and teaching his disciples until his death. In the meantime he resumed teaching for a few years at the Nizamiyyah College in Nishapur.

Al-Ghazali explained in his autobiography why he renounced his brilliant career and turned to Sufism. It was, he says, due to his realization that there was no way to certain knowledge or the conviction of revelatory truth except through Sufism. (This means either that the traditional form of Islamic faith was in a very critical condition at the time, or he simply did not agree with the standard day to day grind of "ordinary" Islam.) This realization is possibly related to his criticism of Islamic philosophy. In fact, his refutation of philosophy is not a mere criticism from a certain (orthodox) theological viewpoint. First of all, his attitude towards philosophy was ambivalent; it was both an object of criticism and an object of learning (for example, logic and the natural sciences). He mastered philosophy and then criticized it in order to Islamicize it. The importance of his criticism lies in his philosophical demonstration that the philosophers' metaphysical arguments cannot stand the test of reason. However, he was also forced to admit that the certainty of revelatory truth, for which he was so desperately searching, cannot be obtained by reason. It was only later that he finally attained to that truth in fana' which in Sufism refers to the state of losing one's self and ego. Through his own religious experience, he worked to revive the faith of Islam by reconstructing the religious sciences upon the basis of Sufism, and to give a theoretical foundation to the latter under the influence of philosophy. Thus Sufism came to be generally recognized in the Islamic community. Though Islamic philosophy did not long survive al-Ghazali's criticism, he contributed greatly to the subsequent philosophization of Islamic theology and Sufism.

And from the original article:

al-Ghazali is one of the greatest Islamic Jurists, theologians and mystical thinkers. He learned various branches of traditional Islamic religious sciences in his home town of Tus, Gurgan and Nishapur in the northern part of Iran. He was also involved in Sufi practices from an early age. Being recognized by Nizam al-Mulk, the vizir of the Seljuq sultans, he was appointed head of the Nizamiyyah College at Baghdad in AH 484/AD 1091. As the intellectual head of the Islamic community, he was busy lecturing on Islamic jurisprudence at the College, and also refuting heresies and responding to questions from all segments of the community. Four years later, however, al-Ghazali fell into a serious spiritual crisis and finally left Baghdad, renouncing his career and the world After wandering in Syria and Palestine for about two years and finishing the pilgrimage to Mecca, he returned to Tus, where he was engaged in writing, Sufi practices and teaching his disciples until his death. In the meantime he resumed teaching for a few years at the Nizamiyyah College in Nishapur

Al-Ghazali explained in his autobiography why he renounced his brilliant career and turned to Sufism. It was, he says, due to his realization that there was no way to certain knowledge or the conviction of revelatory truth except through Sufism. (This means that the traditional form of Islamic faith was in a very critical condition at the time.) This realization is possibly related to his criticism of Islamic philosophy. In fact, his refutation of philosophy is not a mere criticism from a certain (orthodox) theological viewpoint. First of all, his attitude towards philosophy was ambivalent; it was both an object and criticism and an object of learning (for example, logic and the natural sciences). He mastered philosophy and then criticized it in order to Islamicize it. The importance of his criticism lies in his philosophical demonstration that the philosophers’ metaphysical arguments cannot stand the test of reason. However, he was also forced to admit that the certainty, of revelatory truth, for which he was so desperately searching, cannot be obtained by reason. It was only later that he finally attained to that truth in the ecstatic state (fana’) of the Sufi. Through his own religious experience, he worked to revive the faith of Islam by reconstructing the religious sciences upon the basis of Sufsm, and to give a theoretical foundation to the latter under the influence of philosophy. Thus Sufism came to be generally recognized in the Islamic community. Though Islamic philosophy did not long survive al-Ghazali’s criticism, he contributed greatly to the subsequent philosophization of Islamic theology and Sufism.

This should be labelled accordingly. Ori Redler 08:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Neil deGrasse Tyson claims that Al-Ghazali is one of the people responsible for the decline of science and civilisation in arabic/persian/muslim culture. I see in this article that he denounces Aristotle. But I couldn't really find a good explanation about his role in the decline of civilisation that has been lasting till today. Just look at the number of muslim nobel prize winners. --80.56.36.253 13:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Such prominent Muslim scientists as there are nowadays mostly work in Western institutions in Western countries. Prominent scientist Steven Weinberg freely grants the existence of the Arabian Golden Age, and the presence of brilliant Muslims among his colleagues. But, he says, in forty years he has never seen a scientific paper worth reading from a Muslim country.

The Sanity Inspector 02:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• But I couldn't really find a good explanation about his role in the decline of civilisation that has been lasting till today. Look at the "Legacy" section in the wiki article on al-Ghazali' The Incoherence of the Philosophers to see one hypothesis.

The Sanity Inspector 13:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think what Neil deGrasse Tyson has stated is completely incorrect. Have you ever read in any of Ghazali's works where he has declined the science and civilisation? I am sure, you have not. Here's the online edition of his book Book of Knowledge in his work Ihya'ul Uludmuddin (The Revival of Religious Sciences): LINK

Ghazali has dedicated a complete book on Sciences and Knowledge, and he has never declined science or civilisation.

In his book Kimyaye Sa'aadat (Alchemy of Happiness), he writes, using a strong language, about the scholars and some Sufis of that period who used to prohibit people from learning modern sciences: ...and those who call themselves as Shaikh or Peer, and tell people not to learn knowledge because it will become a veil between them and their lord, are fully in ignorance. They have not yet found the truth. Any modern science that the society needs is an obligation upon an individual to learn. (I hope there wasn't any mistake in translation).

I suggest to go directly to the original source instead of listening from a person reporting.Ariana310 13:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)