Talk:Al-Aqsa Intifada

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is part of WikiProject Arab-Israeli conflict, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles related to Arab-Israeli conflict. For guidelines see the project page and Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Maintenance An appropriate infobox needs to be added to this article, or the current infobox needs to be updated. The template to use is {{Infobox Military Unit}}.
Peer review This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute.
Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Al-Aqsa Intifada article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies
This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.


Old page, 1, 2, 3

Contents

[edit] Disengagement plan

What's wrong with just saying "West Bank"? It appears to be the more commonly used term. Khoikhoi 05:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Samaria"

There's been several reverts back and forth about the use of Samaria in sentence about the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from four settlement outposts in the northern West Bank. Samaria is the name of the biblical area roughly comprising the northern West Bank (the area around Nablus, or Shekhem as some people like to call it). It is also part of the name of an administrative region claimed by Israel recognized by nobody else. I think Samaria deserves mention in the article about the West Bank, but not in any article that the northern West Bank is mentioned in. Wikipedia is not a forum for pushing the Israeli point of view (through multiple reverts), but should use language understood by AND agreed upon by the World community, that is as neutral as possible. --Fjmustak 08:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I just saw this thread, but as I said in my edit summary, this has nothing to do with the modern Israeli state, its administrative divisions, or any politics. Samaria is a geographic term describing a specific region within the northern West Bank. I think that people are being confused by reference to Judea and Samaria, which is an Israeli administrative area and political term. Cheers, TewfikTalk 05:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tewfik, Palestine is also the name of a geographic area, however, just like Samaria, it can also refer to a political area. Part of the geographic region Palestine is the modern-day State of Israel, and the geographic region Samaria is roughly equivalent to the modern-day northern West Bank. So if an article is talking about pre-1948 Palestine, I would use Palestine, otherwise Israel it is. Same with Judea and Samaria. If it's about biblical history, then Judea and Samaria it is. In the 21st century, the West Bank (and maybe in the 22nd century a real State of Palestine). --Fjmustak 08:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Palestine refers to a geographic area, and so does Samaria - neither currently refer to a political area. As I said above, I fear that you are confused with Judea and Samaria, which is a political term/Israeli administrative area. Samaria refers to the northern part of the West Bank north of Jerusalem, and is not an exclusively Israeli/Jewish term. TewfikTalk 16:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to rename

I propose to rename this article into more neutral "Second Intifada". The only reason to call it "Al-Aqsa Intifada" is a POV linking Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount with Palestinian violence. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur. If there are several popular names, the more neutral term is most appropriate. Plus, "Second Intifada" gets more google hits than "Al-Aqsa Intifada". --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 22:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I concur as well, though I suppose we should make sure there's the appropriate redirect and "also known as..." in the introduction. --Leifern 22:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the fact that "Second intifada" is both more neutral and more common should make the renaming almost automatic.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The "official" name is Al-Aqsa Intifada, and not the Second Intifada. It is not a POV, just a name. Similar names include the 'Yom Kippur War' (not the Fourth Arab-Israeli War) or the 'Boston Tea Party' (not the 1773 American protest). The link between Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount (Al-Aqsa) and the Palestinian uprising is a fact, and not a POV. They both started on the same day. Whether Sharon's visit was the reason for the outbreak of the uprising or was the last straw that broke the Palestinians' backs (or even an excuse used by those bloodthirsty Palestinians to murder Israelis) is really irrelevant. The BBC Timeline in the Links section calls it Al-Aqsa Intifada, and then goes on to describe it as the second Palestinian intifada (small s and small i). --Fjmustak 23:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
That is the POV I was talking about. There is no "official" name, and as it's been noted out by MPerel, "Al-Aqsa Intifada" is not even the prevalent name - unlike Yom Kippur War or Boston Tea Party. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

"The link between Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount (Al-Aqsa) and the Palestinian uprising is a fact": considering that the article devotes a whole section to discussing the multiple POVs on the chronology, the title shouldn't be the place to press one of them over the others. TewfikTalk 00:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The section that starts with "On September 27, Sgt. David Biri was killed;[11]" is a sneaky way to trivialize Sharon's visit and delink it from the intifada. An intifada is an uprising. A singular killing incident is hardly an uprising. The major violence started after Sharon 'stormed' the Temple Mount complex. The Palestinians are the ones who dubbed it as such, as they are the ones that were uprising. As to the 'googling' of "Second Intifada" and "Al-Aqsa Intifada", the results are very close, and the "second intifada" ones could be inflated for two reasons: 1- Google is not case sensitive, and the second intifada (as in the second Matrix movie) is just saying that there was an original event called the "Intifada". 2- There is only one way to write "second" (it's not a transliteration). --Fjmustak 02:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for confirming that 1) the name reflects solely Palestinian POV, 2) hostilities began before Sharon's visit (which BTW, was dignified, and not 'stormed'), and 3) there is no reason to use POV title because "the results are very close". ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
1) It's a Palestinian event with a Palestinian name. 2) hostilities began in 1948 (and before) when Jewish gangs terrorized Palestine, but that doesn't mean the intifada started back then (I will keep the comment about the dignified part to myself). 3) The "results are very close" comment was only meant to shed some light as to why 'googling' in this case is not really indicative. --Fjmustak 08:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
User:Fjmustak, I request you keep a balanced representation here or at least make an attempt to learn the subject that you're speaking of. In your mentioning of these gangs which "terrorised Palestine", you've left out the "locals" who came in from outside in order to mooch off the Jewish economy by theft and looting or the local peasantry Fellahs who refused accept compensation after the land they were working on was sold to zionist organization by Arab Effendis and went on to terrorize Jewish communities by a multitude of tactics (usually by random shooting and killing and extorting "protection" money) despite not having any ownership rights to the land they were occupying (or the nearby area). Thefts and attacks by Arabs existed long before 1920 and before parts of the Jewish community organized any retribution - I'm sure that you know retribution is considered the proper way in Arabic society, esp. in those days so don't go on like the standard pseudo-historian revisionists who "blame the jews" for a situation that was caused mostly by Arab theft from their own people.
Here's a retribution example: the retubition attempt backed up by an official Fatwa of the Farkhi brothers to avenge the assasination of their brother Haim Farkhi in Akko. Jaakobou 18:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
1) Exploding buses, pizzerias and discos inside Israel is not merely "a Palestinian event". 2) You wrote: "hostilities began in 1948 (and before) when Jewish gangs..." - Nonsense: see 1920 Palestine riots, Jaffa riots, 1929 Palestine riots, 1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. 3) Your argument works against your POV. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Humus sapiens. For everybody Al-Aqsa Intifada has started after Sharon visit not before. Sorry to say but nobody notice 1 dead civilian or soldier in Israel region. Only in Israel and maybe in U.S. people think that this intifada has started earlier. For Israel is normal to blame other side and for U.S I will only say that 20-25 % of population support Israel in anything because God has given this land to Israel (Polls say that not I) 06:00, 28 March 2007 --Rjecina

I strongly support renaming the article. Al-Aqsa Intifada is a POV title, and, incidentally, is a name that I have read only on Wikipedia. The relationship between Sharon's visit and the uprising is a matter of historical debate. This should be (and is) represented in the article; the debate should not be decided, in favor of anti-Israel propaganda, in the title. "Second Intifada" is neutral. 6SJ7 05:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The title is not POV. It is simply the name of the conflict, get over it. No one complains about calling it the Yom Kippur War, so why should people complain about this being called the al-Aqsa Intifada? We don't complain about calling it the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict when Lebanon itself wasn't even fighting, and if we do, if we're not going to change it, we might as well leave this one alone as well. There will never be a neutral term for any subject this politically and emotionally charged. If we change it to the "Second Intifada," then we will be ignoring the prominent link between the uprising and Sharon's visit to the Noble Sanctuary and offend someone. There is never a neutral term for anything regarding history. It has all been renditioned and renamed to fit someone else's status quo. If we don't complain about anti-Semitic being only leveled for Jews and not Arabs as well, we shouldn't nitpick the name of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.35.11.39 (talk • contribs) 06:31, 29 March 2007.

You are correct that "Second Intifada" doesn't assert the point of view that Sharon started it, which is exactly the point. I think that the rest of your examples and your consistent substitution of the neutral Temple Mount for the exclusionary Noble Sanctuary on this page further strengthen that argument, and I highly suggest that you review the oft-cited WP:Neutral point of view policy, which I admit is not as easy as it sounds. Cheers, TewfikTalk 03:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with those who are against renaming the article. It is widely referred to in the press and in popular discourse as the Al-Aqsa Intifada and I do not think the name is POV. Oneworld25 18:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  • The Second Intifada is more common on Google, and has been used on all sides, including by al-Jazeera. [1] It's also the more neutral term, because there's a POV that says the Sharon visit was just an excuse for an uprising that was about to begin anyway. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to renaming this article. The only thing that should be considered in settling this dispute, is which name is the most common. Not which name some editors think is more neutral, not who started the conflict, not whether Sharon's visit is or is not the cause of the conflict, but what is the more common name, in the English speaking world. That is how the naming dispute over Yom Kippur War was settled, and that's how we should settle this one also. So far, the evidence that has been provided to support "Second Intifada" being the more common name consists of: a count of Googe hits, and one article (in al-Jazeera) which refers to the conflict as "second Intifada". Fjmustak has provided good reasons why counting Google hits is not strong evidence that "second Intifada" is more common than "al-Aqsa Intfada" as the name of the conflict. As to Slim Virgin's example from al-Jazeera, here is an example the other way from ynetnews: [2]. A lot more examples are needed, and this discussion hasn't even begun. Sanguinalis 01:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

  • "Second Intifada" is more common on Google, as well as Google Scholar -compare this and this. It's clear that there is no "official" name so given that "Second Intifada" is more common and avoids POV, this is the title WP should use. <<-armon->> 06:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC) The hits are close enough though, that we also need to make sure there's the appropriate redirect and "also known as al-Aqsa Intfada" in the introduction, as per Leifern. <<-armon->> 06:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Now try the google scholar search again, using advanced scholar search with exact phrase "in the title of the article".
So if when we are talking about the name of the article, rather than whether the words "second intifada" might have occurred somewhere in the article, it seems that scholars choose to use "al Aqsa intifada" over "second intifada" at a ratio of about 23:1 - from my own observation it's rare to hear the phrase "second intifada", which is why I was surprised to see people suggest that it was more common - more common on blogs maybe? --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 14:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I just edited my own post as I'd transposed two digits when copying from google - although it doesn't make a big difference - it's still a 23:1 ratio of articles in favour of "al Aqsa intifada". In case there was any doubt, I oppose the proposal to rename the article. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 14:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
A search on allintitle: "al Aqsa intifada" actually returns 69 articles. <<-armon->> 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, my mistake, looks like I copied from the wrong window or something. So 69 vs about 59 - much closer than I would have expected. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 15:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well given the closeness in results, and that it's only the title search where "al Aqsa" beats "second", as well as "al Aqsa" being in quotes in some of the titles, I'm going to stick with renaming. In a case like this, the more NPOV title should be used. If "al Aqsa" does become the standard name, it's not like we can't change it back later. <<-armon->> 15:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but the title is what matters - otherwise some random text in the article, or even a footnote like "sometimes known as the second intifada" would hold just as much weight as the title. Yet another search for what it's worth - regular google this time... and this discussion is about the "name" or "title" of this article.
I hope I got the copy/paste right that time - hopefully someone will check again. Once again, "al Aqsa intifada" has the greater numbers, although as I remarked before, even searching for results by title, there could be a lot of blogs and other minor entries in those numbers, which I think we might be able to agree, shouldn't hold quite as much weight as a scholarly article or a report on a major international news service such as from the BBC, Reuters, AP or AFP. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 15:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
OK but then look at this search on "2nd intifada". This turns up an additional 36,500. <<-armon->> 00:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I support "Second Intifada." I think it's more accurate and less POV. IronDuke 15:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Google phrase searches:

The wikipedia guidelines lean toward the Google scholar results for title searches, I believe.

Google Scholar phrase searches. In titles only:

So that means Al-Aqsa Intifada should probably be used. The main (non-title) google searches are pretty close. Maybe later the Google scholar results will change. Maybe not. But for now Al-Aqsa Intifada is the more popular name in Google Scholar title searches. So I believe the guidelines indicate it should be used. It can be changed later if the results change. --Timeshifter 01:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The numbers 62 vs. 68 don't mean much (especially in the light of other ghit test), and given that "Al-Aqsa Intifada" implies very strong POV, I still think the title should change to a less POV, of course with proper redirects, mentioning other names, etc.
To summarize, I still haven't seen any serious objection: 1) ghit is inconclusive at best, 2) POV is not serious, and 3) revenge for "Yom Kippur War" is laughable. Did I miss something? ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

About the "Yom Kippur War". I assume it is the main name for that war since it is the name used for the wikipedia title. But according to the wikipedia article it is also called the Ramadan War, October War, 1973 Arab-Israeli War, and the Fourth Arab-Israeli War. I assume the editors and admins working on that page had similar discussions concerning the name. --Timeshifter 01:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yom Kippur War is by far the most common name in English. Please look in the talk archive. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I support the rename to "Second Intifada", the "Al-Aqsa" title is a somewhat propagandish term. Jaakobou 13:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Most people would recognize "Al-aqsa intifada" over "second intifada" given the BBC and CNN (two of the most popular media in the English speaking world) used the former term over the latter. See my edits below.Bless sins 01:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Many users consider teh name "Al-Aqsa intifada" to be "POV". Can someone point out the type of bias "Al-Aqsa intifada" exhibits? Israeli, Palestinian, Arab, Western, rich and poor sources seem to use both terms.Bless sins 01:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what bias exactly. It is a POV to link Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount with Palestinian violence. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some wikipedia guidance

From Wikipedia:Naming conventions:

This page in a nutshell: Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

From Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Identification of common names using external references:

Identification of common names using external references.

A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.

  • The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term.
  • International organisations. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc.
  • Major English-language media outlets. Use Google News and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as BBC News and CNN to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g. The Guardian's style guide says use Ukraine, not the Ukraine).
  • Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English.
  • Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp .

From: Wikipedia:Naming conflict

Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.

---

So there are some wikipedia guidelines. I haven't looked yet at the other methods in the above list. Such as Google News, encyclopedias, UN, BBC, CNN, Guardian style guide, etc.. --Timeshifter 02:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google title searches

Google phrase searches limited to the phrase in article titles:

It seems that people title it the Al-Aqsa Intifada, but use "second intifada" inside articles. Probably because most English speakers have a hard time constantly writing, and spelling correctly, "Al-Aqsa." If I were writing a web page on this intifada, I would try to title it by the most distinctive name. Then I would say that it was the second intifada in the Palestinian territories. Then I would continue with "second intifada" in the article because it is easier, and does not require capital letters. --Timeshifter 06:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Al-Aqsa intifada is the name used amongst scholars, we should stick to that.Bless sins 01:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There could be several reasons for the google search giving higher results to "second intifada".
  • It is likely that when searching for "second intifada" the word "second" may be used in a minor or irrelevent context. E.g there could be a sentence like "During the intifada, the second attack on...".
  • Some hits don't have the word "second". Consider this link inthe google search.
Google searches should not dictate wiki content.Bless sins 01:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
See the URLs I used for Google searches. I used phrase searches. See also the previous 2 sections of the talk page. The definitive searches are the Google title searches for phrases. 30,500 results. That is far more results for "Al-Aqsa Intifada" title search results than for "Second Intifada" title search results. You have to put quotes around the phrase in your google searches. To only get results for the phrase found in titles you have to put allintitle: in front of the phrase with a space in between it and the phrase. Click the Google shortcut URLs at the beginning of this section to see. --Timeshifter 02:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Google searches for the phrases in all parts of pages come out with around the same amount of results. BBC uses "Al-Aqsa Intifada" or just "Intifada". Title searches in Google Scholars lean slightly toward "Al-Aqsa Intifada". See the previous talk sections for the URLs to click to see the current results. --Timeshifter 02:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

"Al-Aqsa intifada" is used by BBC,[3] CNN, [4].A "second intifada" search on CNN shows nothing useful,[5], same with BBC. [6]. Can anyone show how "second intifada" is more notable?Bless sins 01:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

"Google searches should not dictate wiki content." - sure they should not. Also the propagandist POV that Sharon's visit initiated the violence should not dictate the article title, and sensationalist news agencies should not as well. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions states "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize". Thus a name used by popular media in the English speaking world should be given preference, as most English speakers would easily recognize it. Also, can you specify what type of POV does the title "Al-Aqsa intifada" exhibit? The term is used by both Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs and Westerners, activists and professionals. "Al-aqsa intifida" is not specific to a race, religion, nationality, profession or class.Bless sins 01:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from changing the name to back to "Second intifada" as you've not yet achieved concensus on talk, and "Al-Aqsa intifada" is a long-standing name.Bless sins 01:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. Another attempt by User:Bless sins to pretend upholding WP guidelines while trying to elbow in his POV. Of course Al-Aqsa is specific to a religion and of course the idea that Sharon's visit initiated the violence is propagandist POV. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate if you minded WP:Civil. You are free to attack my arguments, but no personal attacks against me. Please just answer to my objections. Yom Kippur is also specific to a religion, yet we use Yom Kippur war, thous others refer to it as the Ramadan war, and it can be neutrally referred to as the October war. Bless sins 02:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
LOL. Bless sins, you'll need to work hard to regain good faith. Unlike Yom Kippur War, which is by far the common English-language name, the name Al-Aqsa Intifada did not gain advantage compared to Second Intifada, despite all the propaganda. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Please, don't make me the subject matter, rather my arguments. Answer my objections: towards whom is "Al-Aqsa intifada" biased? Why do the most popular English media prefer "Al-Aqsa intifada" over "second intifada"? What reason do you have for "second intifada", except google seraches that are irrelevent?Bless sins 02:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Your question has been answered repeatedly. Once again: "Al-Aqsa intifada" is biased toward the POV that the violence began as a grass-roots response to Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, vs. the POV that this was a calculated outbreak of violence , pre-planned by the Palestinian leadership months in advance, and unleashed under the pretext of the visit. Isarig 02:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm assuming you believe the POV is anti-Israeli as it appears to blame Sharon (it doesn't). But why do the following Israeli sources use the term: Ynet news, Political Science professor at Tel Aviv University Haaretz? Even a very anti-Arab piece uses the term [7]Bless sins 02:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
You assume too much. You asked why it is POV, and I explained it to you. Israeli sources are not beyond using POV descriptions. Isarig 03:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Humus sapiens. I will take this to the incident boards if you insist in changing the name to a less popular name according to Google title searches. This is in violation of the wikipedia guidelines for naming articles. You are an admin, and you must follow wikipedia guidelines. I don't personally care either way what the conflict is named. But the wikipedia guidelines demand we use the most popular name. And please stop your personal attacks on Bless sins. --Timeshifter 02:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


I have shown how popular sources (in the English speaking world) prefer "Al-aqsa intifada". Can Humus Sapiens show any source comaparable in popularity to the BBC and CNN that prefers "Second intifada" over "Al-Aqsa intifada"?Bless sins 03:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Both BBC and CNN were noted for being non-neutral in the AIC, but this is a wrong place to discuss it. Also, news media may have other considerations: al-Aqsa is shorter and snappier (read sensationalist, POV) than bland (read NPOV) "second". WP is an encyclopedia. Given that both names are widely used, we should choose a neutral one. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/l/-/Talk%7EAl-Aqsa_Intifada_70e8.html"