Talk:Akiba ben Joseph

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Contents 1 Biography vs legend 2 merge 3 References 4 {{cleanup-tone}} 5 Fixing

[edit] Biography vs legend

The "biography" strikes me as containing a healthy dose of legend. Can someone clarify what is and isn't established historical fact? Josh Cherry 02:48, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Josh: Don't you see that it says the sources are Mishnah, Midrash, and Talmud (do you even know what they are?). They are the most reliable written sources of classical Judaism, see also Category:Jewish texts. IZAK 03:35, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• • My comment was perfectly civil; there's no need to be insulting. Yes, I know what these works are. I know that much of what they contain is legend. The "Biography" section states things as historical fact. Someone reading this would be entitled to believe that, for example he really returned home with twelve thousand disciples, but that would seem to be a legendary embellishment. Josh Cherry 12:12, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree. The entire article seems to be made up of legend, which was the reason I clicked on the discussion tab to begin with. Is there an objective biography of him available? :) --Jen Moakler 19:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

He is not attested to outside of Mishnah, Midrash, and Talmud. Much like Jesus, who is not attested to outside of the New Testament, and who has even more fantastic claims made about him. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg would have had a point if the article on Jesus had been a simple summary of the four gospels. However, that article has a section discussing the historicity of Jesus as well as links to articles discussing different viewpoints. On a side note there is also quite a debate whether Jesus is attested outside the NT, in other "gospels", as well as in the writings of Josephus and some Roman historians. The NPOV version of this article should at least use words like "according to the Talmud".--itpastorn 15:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Blast! The very statement that "what they contain is legend" is POV. This article is obviously "according to the Talmud". What did you think? According to the awen gilayon (gospel)? hasofer 00:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Josh. The "biography" part of this article is a naive retelling of the talmudic sources with no hint to a text-critical or scholarly approach. I don't have the time to rewrite it in a way worthy of an encyclopedia but I wish somebody did. The way the text reads now, it's fit only for a cheder textbook.

I have to agree with those who are very skeptical of this article. Take the following passage for example:

"It was at dawn of the Jewish Day of Atonement when the burnt offering that day was to be the great Rebbi Akiva, the wise and considerate teacher and father of his people. He had attained the same age as Moses, one hundred twenty, yet his body was still powerful, his eyes undimmed and his spirit unbroken. They tied him to a stake, and the Roman torturers tore lumps of living flesh from him with red hot pincers. But no cry of pain escaped him. As the sun rose in the East, Rebbi Akiva put his hand over his eyes and cried out with a loud voice: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is One. Blessed be His Name for ever and ever. And thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might.'"

The following heroic exagerations are noted:

great, wise, considerate; 120...and still powerful; undimmed, unbroken; and tied...[yet his hands are placed over his eyes and with lumps of flesh missing no less]....

This sort of article is exactly that which leads people to question the validity of Wikipedia. Comic book writers need not apply. Maybe Wikipedia should be divided into a serious side and a non-serious side. Articles that remain silly should be relegated to the non-serious side until improved. Then they could be transfered to the serious side and locked with further commentary pending reasonable inspection. I like Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is too good a resource to allow it to be tainted by fiction writers.

[edit] merge

I have redirect the the article `Aqiba ben Joseph to here. The aticle said:

`Aqiba ben Joseph (c. 50-132) was a Jewish Palestinian rabbi, of the circle known as tana. It is almost impossible to separate the true from the false in the numerous traditions respecting his life. He became the chief teacher in the rabbinical school of Jaffa, where, it is said, he had 24,000 scholars. Whatever their number, it seems certain that among them was the celebrated Rabbi Meir, and that through him and others `Aqiba exerted a great influence on the development of the doctrines embodied in the Mishnah. He sided with Simon bar Kokhba in the last Jewish revolt against Rome, recognized him as the Messiah, and acted as his sword-bearer. Being taken prisoner by the Romans under Sextus Julius Severus, he was flayed alive with circumstances of great cruelty, and met his fate, according to tradition, with marvellous steadfastness and composure. He is said by some to have been a hundred and twenty years old at the time of his death. He is one of the ten Jewish martyrs whose names occur in a penitential prayer still used in the synagogue service. `Aqiba was among the first to systematize the Jewish tradition, and he paved the way for the compilation of the Mishnah. From his school emanated the Greek translation of the scriptures by Aquila of Sinope.

[edit] References

• {{1911}}

[[Category:50 births|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]] [[Category:132 deaths|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]]

If you see anything that should be added here, please do so. Jon513 21:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{cleanup-tone}}

I've added a cleanup notice to the article, as the biographical section does not attempt to sort hagiography from history. I know of the limitations of historical sources on Akiva, but at least an attempt should be made to summarize uncontroversial points in a historical section before embarking on the lengendary stuff from the Talmud. Taragüí @ 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Taragui: So far, what was cited are not "legends" -- legends would imply "tall tales", whereas classical Judaism regards these as the the truth, or do you wish to dispute that? IZAK 08:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

A legend is something that may be regarded as true, but lacks convincing historical evidence to support it. Almost everything in this article falls into this category. While Orthodox Judaism may adhere to it, there is no evidence that it actually happened. Think of, say, Greek myths about their gods or Aztec ones; ancient Greeks and Aztecs regarded them as true, which is not to say we should take them at face value.

Please do not single-handedly remove a cleanup notice without settling the issue with the tagger; it may be construed as vandalism, specially when you have already tried to push your own POV as regards this article many times. Taragüí @ 17:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The only relevant difference is that ancient Greeks and Aztecs don't publish their opinions in contemporary publications in a way that meets WP:V and WP:RS. If they did, Wikipedia would be as obligated under WP:NPOV to report their current religious views when discussing subjects relevant to them as it is to report living religious views when discussing issues relevant to living religions. The WP:NPOV policy discusses how to address the issue, noting that one can resolve conflicting points of view by putting the different perspectives in different sections in a way that makes it clear who is saying what without endorsing any view. Thus, one could have a section called something like "Rabbi Akiva in the Talmud" describing how Rabbi Akiva is depicted in the Talmud without Wikipedia taking an opinion on whether what the Talmud says is true or not, and another section entitled something like "Rabbi Akiva and the History of Ancient Judaea" describing how Rabbi Akiva is depicted in the writings of various academic historians -- and without taking an opinon on whether what academic historians say is true or not. All the content involved is encyclopedic and appropriate, and it would be appropriate to describe the Talmudic writings using the term Aggadah. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing

I am going to try to fix some of the issues with this article. Let me take a crack at it, and then we'll see. —Dfass 02:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm done with it now. I merged a large amount of material from the Jewish Encyclopedia article with the existing material here. I moved some of the more "legendary" content to a section of legends at the end (as per JE), but kept some of it up front as well. I hope this will satisfy everyone, but I know it won't, so fire away. I will now return to editing more obscure articles that no one cares about. Thanks. —Dfass 19:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)