Talk:Ainulindalë

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This article contains a great deal of information not directly related to the Ainulindale, especially after the sentence "Melkor was among them, and has meddled in every development of History, just as he did with every element of the Great Music in Heaven". Is this someone's essay? Original research? --Urbane legend 12:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

1 A disappointing article
2 Angel Analogy
3 Original Research
4 Merge with Music of the Ainur

[edit] A disappointing article

Not really up to its subject in content or style.

[edit] Angel Analogy

"...have a role and level of power similar to that of angels in Judeo-Christian mythology." Disagree. Angels were chiefly messengers of God. They dwealt in Heaven and had no real power over the Earth, except when God sent them down for some specific task. OTOH the Ainur (Valar + Maiar) were created by Iluvatar to have dominion over the World. They dwealt on Arda and lived alongside its people, albeit in a separate land initially. The Valar had the power to create and destroy, to shape the world, basically whatever they saw fit--although they were not permitted to "animate" living beings, as exemplified by Aulë and his Dwarves. If anything, the Valar represented "gods" with Iluvatar representing an "over-God", as it were. No analogy exists in the Judeo-Christian mythos for this relationship (although Hinduism & Bhuddism may be a different story.) Any angelic role might tenuously be represented by the Maiar, the servants of the Valar. (FYI Melkor/Morgoth was one of the Valar, whereas Sauron was a Maiar as were Gandalf and Saruman.) --Jquarry 22:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

If you disagree, edit it out of the article. --Urbane legend 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Some very basic parts of the entry I found in place, but a substantial part did come from an essay I wrote, though have never published. Perhaps I ought to have noted the later bits as 'filler' or elaboration relevant to Ainulindale? At any rate, you'll find it's been modified. The question of whether the Ainur are comparable to Judeo-Christian 'angels' is a bit more complicated that the commentor would make it seem. There are quite a few variants on 'angel', when one walks the route from Babylon to Rome to Canterbury. At the end of the day, in all Christendom, Islamdom and Hebrewdom, the angels are immortals, sons of god, who have power in the world, up to and including the ability to meddle. The Hallmark Cards image of Cupid-cum-blonde-Harp-Player is not, strictly speaking, the 'priestly' or 'theological' view of just what Gabriel and Michael are. Angelic beings are divided into hierarchies and given sweeping responsibilities: many traditions hold that the world and everything in it has been 'given over' to Satan, for example. The djinn of Islam are accorded elemental realms (air, earth, fire, water). There is a stronger connection between Valar and Angels than one might think, which is only natural considering Tolkien's religious beliefs and education. User:Blackthornbrethil

- Pronunciation & Elements -

Prehaps something should be said of the pronunciation? I know when I first read it, I remember thinking it was "an-yool-in-dale" or something like that, when it's pronounced "ein-oorl-een-dal-eh" - I don't know the correct pronunciation. Someone else does, I hope.

Also, had it not been noted in the original essay that the four chief creators of the earth are very similiar to the classic water-air-earth-fire grouping? [Ulmo, Manwe, Aule, Melkor]. --Poddster 13:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I added the pronunciation aid, but will leave out the earth-wind-fire thing, as it might seem too 'commentary-like' for some. User:blackthornbrethil Black Thorn of Brethil 13:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

While the correction from 'lee' is absolutely correct, I disagree with the change to 'lay'. Of course, there seems to be a dearth of 'final authority' on the question of pronunciation of Elvish words. I have found many sources giving directly contradictory advice about such words as Ainulindalë, which casts grave doubt on such sources. Using the texts (LoTR, Silmarillion and the HoME series by C. Tolkien), I have found several remarks about how the diacritical mark ¨ over a vowel at the end of a word is not to be confused with the European umlaut (demonstrating "the change of a vowel that is caused by partial assimilation to a succeeding sound or that occurs as a reflex of the former presence of a succeeding sound which has been lost or altered" [thank you Merriam-Webster!]), but rather is used only to show that the final vowel is neither silent, nor lengthens a prior vowel. That is, to show that it is pronounced as it normally is elsewhere in a word. Since 'e' in transliterated Elvish is always produced as is the short 'e' of English (like 'pet', 'step', 'Shetland'), the final 'e' on any such word is thus pronounced 'eh' (or thereabouts). Hence "leh" in the article. The question of using the IPA symbols for pronunciation is left to a real linguist - it certainly can't be the only pronunciation model used in this article, as the vast majority of readers are unfamiliar with the IPA in any detail. I do encourage any adjustments to the pronunciation to include specific text-references. For starters, I would refer readers to the simplest examples - the Appendices in LoTR - especially the notes on 'pronunciation'.black thorn of brethil 20:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research

This page appears to contain substantial amounts of "original research" and POV, especially in the Comparisons section. These need to be removed or referenced if possible. QmunkE 13:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Referenced. Point out the remaining original research and POV needing cleanup. black thorn of brethil 18:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)