Talk:AIDS reappraisal

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Contents 1 Foaming rant 2 Major edit 3 AIDSwiki 4 Copyright issues? 5 Alleged harm section 6 Broken reference

[edit] Foaming rant

[Discussion on this thread through 9 January 2007 archived to /Archive 6]

The neutrality of this article and also that of Wikipedia on AIDS is highly disputed. It relegates it to political movement which it is not. All articles on AIDS by Wiki needs to carry this headline 'The neutrality of this article is disputed' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.214.192.79 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Major edit

OK, in accordance with the discussion above, I've gone through and substantially trimmed the section on "Points of Contention". Here is a permalink to the version immediately before my major revision, for reference [1]. The reasoning is that there are already a ton of sites and information debating the fine points of Koch's postulates, etc etc - Wikipedia is not really supposed to be a front in this battle, but rather to report on it. This article already contains dozens of links to both dissident and mainstream sites which address the claims, and playing them out in point-counterpoint here was just not seeming encyclopedic anymore. Also, it's remarkable how much shorter the article is without going into the evidence for Hepatitis B/C and how they're similar or different, and also remarkable how many unreliably sourced or unsourced assertions this removes. MastCell 23:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I realise now that I shouldn't have put that paragraph back into the "Impact in North America and Europe" section without discussing it first, as I'm sure you had a good reason for removing it. The paragraph in question is the one that begins, "In the following few years". It seems to me that this part of the article needs to mention the promotion of dissident views in the mainstream media. However, perhaps you think the paragraph should be rewritten? Trezatium 10:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

No, that's my fault for removing a sourced paragraph without giving any indication of my thought process. I was thinking it was a bit vague and didn't flow with the rest of the paragraph. However, after re-reading it with the paragraph reinserted, I think it actually looks fine. Sorry about that. MastCell 19:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AIDSwiki

I've removed the link to the dissident AIDSwiki. WP:EL clearly lists, under "Links to Avoid" #12, links to wikis without a substantial number of contributors and a substantial history of stability. Alexa rankings don't enter into it; it's a matter of reliability as encyclopedic content. The fact that the link appears to be added by the founder of said wiki is probably a WP:SPAM issue as well, but regardless of who adds it, it violates WP:EL. If there's a question about this, I'd suggest getting independent input from other editors. MastCell 06:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with MastCell; it is not a substantial/stable/reliable wiki, and thus should not be linked in accordance with WP:EL. In addition, EL acceptable additions are not based on relative merits (edit summary when added was "the wiki has more traffic than any other dissident site listed here"). JoeSmack ^Talk 06:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if anything I was thinking that was reason to remove some of the other links as well (and some of the mainstream links). In general I'd prefer fewer external links - this site isn't intended to replace Google. MastCell 05:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, why don't you just get rid of *ALL* the links?? If you can't have a link to the most trafficked dissident site, just throw them all away. God forbid we should mention the existence of websites directly relevant to the subject of the article. 68.54.12.225 12:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not the most trafficked dissident site, it is the most trafficked dissident wiki site; every wiki that has an article to one of its subjects on wikipedia does not get a cart blanche to linking it here. JoeSmack ^Talk 13:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

So, tell me "JoeSmack", which dissident sites are more heavily trafficked? I only know of 2 possible ones -- YBYL ("You Bet Your Life") and Virusmyth. The latter has more traffic than the wiki, but has slid and is not up to date. All the others you list here have much less traffic than the wiki (some by a factor of 3-5). But, don't let the facts get in the way of anything. Facts never got in the way re: HIV, no point starting now. 68.54.12.225 10:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL is pretty clear on this point. I understand that 68.54.12.225 (talk • contribs) is apparently directly involved in the creation and operation of the AIDSwiki, but it's not an appropriate external link for Wikipedia per the guideline. Many highly trafficked pages (blogs, MySpace, YouTube) are nonetheless generally inappropriate as external links. MastCell 16:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You're missing my point. My point was -- IF SOMEONE HAD UPLOADED ALL THE INFORMATION THAT IS AT THE WIKI ONTO A GENERIC "WEBSITE" (LIKE WWW.VIRUSMYTH.NET), YOU WOULD HAVE NO RATIONALE FOR DELETING IT. This is what I mean when I say you are "penalizing it just for being a wiki". This is a clear-cut example of "gaming the system". 68.54.12.225 10:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright issues?

The following reference ([2]) was removed by Ghostoflearnedhand (talk • contribs), with an edit summary claiming that the article was "subject of a copyright dispute". Can you provide more details? I've removed the ref for now, but would like to know the details, as the POZ magazine site says nothing about any copyright issues. MastCell 18:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged harm section

I'm considering excising the subsection entitled "Alleged harm caused by dissident views". It consists mostly of quotes from the two sides, and doesn't add much that hasn't already been made clear earlier in the article. Thoughts? MastCell 19:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the article must at some point mention the allegations that dissident views have contributed to avoidable illness and deaths. For example see this article (PDF) recently posted on the AidsTruth.org site. I agree that the existing section is not very good, but I think it should remain until we have something better to take its place. Without this section, the article would give the impression that the causation debate is merely academic. Trezatium 20:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No question that should be mentioned... I was just thinking that we already mention it in the lead ("endanger public health"), and in the Impact in South Africa section ("responsible for 600 deaths a day"). Maybe an added mention under "Impact in North America", and the section would be superfluous? MastCell 21:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you think of the addition to the "Impact in North America and Europe" section? I'm a little leery of directly linking to AIDStruth's reprint of the Newsweek article - it seems a little sketchy from a copyright standpoint, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. MastCell 21:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the quotes from Montagnier and Sandra Thurman are superior because they explicitly allege that the promotion of dissident theories endangers life. However I agree that the copyright status of that article is unclear. Could we just reference Newsweek without providing any link? I agree that the quotes from Geffen and Moore could be removed, but perhaps the reference to the "HIV Science and Responsible Journalism" transcript could be retained and moved elsewhere. In any case I think we should keep the counterarguments from Duesberg and the Perth Group, for the sake of neutrality. Trezatium 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Please ignore my suggestion about referencing the Newsweek article - I didn't realise you had already cited it. Trezatium 21:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest replacing your addition to the "Impact in North America and Europe" section with the following, or something similar: "AIDS experts including Luc Montagnier (co-discoverer of HIV) and Sandra Thurman (White House AIDS policy director) have alleged that the AIDS reappraisal movement endangers lives by persuading people to abandon safer sex or medications." This could then be followed by the dissident rebuttal. Any thoughts? Trezatium 21:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds fine. I'm all for keeping it brief (i.e. short summaries of allegations from Montaignier, and short rebuttal, without the quotes). Recently I've been feeling like many of these articles are too wordy (maybe I'm just in more of a hurry). I think we should keep the HIV Science & Journalism transcript - it's under external links, but perhaps could be sourcing for statements in the article body as well. MastCell 22:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's another thought - the Durban Declaration states, "HIV causes AIDS. It is unfortunate that a few vocal people continue to deny the evidence. This position will cost countless lives." (in terms of sourcing the claim that AIDS denialism is dangerous). MastCell 04:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent suggestion - well found. Essentially my point is that the article should at some point mention the alleged harm caused by dissident views, which after all is why this topic is significant and controversial. Perhaps the existing section ("Alleged harm caused by dissident views") could be replaced with a short paragraph to that effect - referencing the Newsweek article, the Durban Declaration and perhaps the "Responsible Journalism" seminar as well - plus another short paragraph explaining that the Perth Group and Duesberg reject such accusations. Trezatium 20:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good - I'll work on it as time permits, or feel free to go for it. MastCell 20:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Broken reference

The reference I just added (INTERNATIONAL EXPERTS MEET IN MEXICO CITY TO PLAN AIDS 2008 PROGRAMME, WITH FOCUS ON LATEST DEVELOPMENTS IN RESEARCH, PREVENTION AND CARE) isn't displaying properly, but I don't know how to fix it. Trezatium 09:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed it. Trezatium 19:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)