Talk:Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi

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Contents 1 Ambiguous 2 Somali clan? 3 Split? 4 Ethnicity 5 A Fact 6 let's discuss the Added info

[edit] Ambiguous

The article is well written, congrats to the author (assuming its his/her own research), just a note of concern however, exactly what does this line in the 5th paragraph mean?

"While the Portuguese expedition were victorious in most of their engagements with Ahmad's forces, da Gama allowed himself to be trapped by Ahmad somewhere north of the Tekezé River, where he was killed along with all but 140 of his troops."

perhaps its just me but the sentence suggests the Portugese general da Gama ALLOWED himself to be captured. Does it assume the Somalis were unable to capture him? or was this some selfless act by an invading European, giving up his life so that his troops may be saved? Both seems doubtful and strage at best, kindly clear it up.

franz fanon

The source I had at the time stated in vague language that da Gama was maneuvered into a poor tactical position by Ahmda Gragn, who was then able to decimate his troops and kill him in the process. Since then, I've gotten my hands on a translation of Castanhoso's account of the Portuguese expedition (which is commonly accepted as the best account of these events), & learned that what actually happened was more complex. My intent in the next few weeks is to contribute this material to Wikipedia under the relevant articles. -- llywrch 19:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somali clan?

The Akisho, Gadabuursi, and Leelkase articles each claim that Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi (Ahmed Gurey) was a member of those respective Somali clans. None of these articles cite a reference, though. Was any sort of clan affiliation ever documented? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. It is presumed these confederated large clans (that is the four major ones) that exist now actually came at that time or later. No one knows his true Soomaali clan. Many different clans claim, with absurd assertions. Soomaali March 13, 2006

I also just notcied that the Ogaden article states he is from that area. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion and Harar both state he is from Harar. Should all these references be removed pending citation? - BanyanTree 21:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

He's mentioned again in Darod, as a member of that clan. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's false. Though clans probably existed back then, no one knows which clan he was a part of. Futuh al-Habasa doesn't mention his clan, and that's probably the most likely source to mention it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yom (talk • contribs) 04:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

There's evidence that he was actually Afar (but he could be either), and the quotation has little to do with him, being relevant for the article at Adal instead, so I've removed the information, and added relevant info to Adal. Btw, Futuh didn't apparently didn't even mention his ethnicity at all. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Marehan article has made this claim, as well. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahmed Ibrahim Ghazi was from the Dir clan is an agreed fact amoung Somalis. However, the real dispute that remains is was he a Gadabuursi Dir or Madahweyn Dir(Akisho or Gurgure). Their is a plenty evidence that this Somali hero is from the Gadabursi whose present day homeland is called Awdal (Adal) which is the kingdom Gurey ruled. Futhermore, it is in the Gadabuursi Mandaluug Dir region which the Christian Ethiopians always targeted in the attacks against Ahmed Gurey and today in the Amuud region you will find the ruines of buildings where the ancient Samaroon used to live and it was the hometown of the Somali saint and general Imaam Said Samaroon who was the defender of the western flank of the Somali nation from Amhara intrusions.

Imam Ahmed Gureey could not be from the Darood clan since he lived in the 1500's before even the Yemani ancestor of the Darood(Darood Ibu Ismail Jabarti reached the shores of Somali. Therefore, Gurey was from the Dir Mandaluug or Madahweyn clan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.219.199.169 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As has already been noted, multiple articles about Somali clans have each claimed that Ahmed Gurey belonged to one particular clan or another. If you do not cite sources for your assertions, how can we distinguish your own claims from those of others? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Though the article isn't big enough to warrant a split right now, I think that we should have two separate articles. One for the Ahmed Gragn, and one for the invasion of Ethiopia by Adal. The two are obviously distinct even if they are so closely related. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:

"A. was of Somali origin, later called Guray, which is deliberately ignored by his Muslim chronicler." (Franz-Cristoph Muth, "Ahmad b. Ibrahim al-Gazi" in Siegbert Herausgegeben von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden:Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003), pp.155.)

It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)

It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:

"Although the exact influence of the `Afar inside the Kingdom of `Adal is still conjectural due to its multiethnic basis..."

Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading the Futuh al-Habasha, I've noticed that there is some evidence in this primary source -- although not conlcusive -- that Ahmad Gragn could have been of the Belaw, a Muslim people who currently live in Eritrea. -- llywrch 04:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean the Belew (modern pronounciation - the vowels would be pronounced Balaw in Ge'ez). The name seems to refer to Arabized Beja groups or Beja-ized Arab groups who ruled in NE Sudan (in Beja areas) and parts of western Eritrea (i.e. Kunama and Nara lands). This is the definition given by the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. However, it also seems to refer to Christianized rulers of northern Ethiopia (Tigray and Eritrea) of Beja stock during the Zagwe dynasty (version supported by Taddesse Tamrat). Their origins seem to be diverse, though, so the rulers may have been members of a group similar to the Tigre (who came about later) of nomadic Tigrinya (-related language) speakers (? some conjecture on my part). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Mostly for entertainment purposes, I thought I'd mention that Samuel Gobat, a European missionary who lived in Northern Ethiopia around 1830, stated that the Imam was a "Mohammedan Galla"! While he offers no support for this statement, I can understand how he came to this wildly erroneous opinion -- but do we need this kind of information added to the article just to engage in borderline original research to refute? -- llywrch 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Fact

zeila the birth place of ahmed gran is in present day somalia and was also inhabited by somalis 500 years ago

afars were part of the kingdom just like the harari's but doesn't make ahmed gran a harari evendo he made harar the capital of Adal

the imam was supported mainly by his own people the somalis

here is an excerpt from the french historian Rene Basset

• Histoire de la Conquete de L'Abyssinie* (trans. Rene Basset),

http://i2.tinypic.com/t0i0s9.jpg

Rene Basset doesn't address why he calls him Somali, though. Calling someone Somali in passing isn't evidence that it's more likely than being Afar. Harari back then probably didn't exist as an ethnicity, though. Maqrizi notes that Ifat, for instance, spoke Amharic. If you read what I said before, Afars were probably the predominant ethnic group in the kingdom. Either way, being born in Zeila doesn't make him Somali. Zeila was a port city with many ethnicities living in its borders. The current version makes it clear that the common consensus is that he was Somali, though. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 22:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] let's discuss the Added info

I agree there is the possibility that Ahmed Gurey could have been a Afar and i have no problems with that being mentioned. from the added info:

He has a nephew Muhammad bin Ali, whose mother was the Imam's aunt; Muhammad was the Sultan of the Somali tribe of Zarba.

if the Mother of a Sultan of a Somali tribe is the sister of Ahmed Gurey's Mother or Father how is this not a Somali connection?

The Futuh mentions one Ibrahim bin Ahmad as a ruler of the Adal Sultanate for three months, whose name suggests that he may be the Imam's father. This Ibrahim is described as one of the Belew people and previously having been the ruler of the town of Hubat.[8] The possible connection between the two is strengthened by the fact Hubat is later mentioned as one of the power bases of Imam Ahmad (the other being Za'ka).

^^to claim this part regarding the connection between the Belew people and Ahmed Gurey and then at the same time claim the following

Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection.

which ethnic connection was made in Futuh between Ahmed and Adalites that justifies the isolation of the Somali people?

Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, would this embarassing detail have been mentioned?[10]

Pure speculation and personal interpretation of the text, the Futuh also mentioned the amount of destruction Ahmed's army caused and that's not praising someone's legacy, not to forget the many times these Same warrior were praised in Futuh

Somali forces contributed much to the Imam’s victories. Shihab ad-Din, the Muslim chronicler of the period, writing between 1540 and 1560, mentions them frequently. (Fatuh al-Habasha, ed. And trs. R. Besset Paris, 1897.)

it looks very POV to me RoboRanks 04:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)