Talk:Ahmad Kasravi

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[edit] Azeri Language

Well, actually he couldn't show that azeris are persians, the strongest reason that he provided was 4 small villages with turkish names that were located around "khalkhal" that were using the "talish" language. he had nothing to do with even smaller cities in azerbaijan, and as some people know almost at the end of his life he changes his mind about azerbaijan that they couldn't be persians, nor indo-europeans, which we can see at this time what genetic and new historical founds shows.

He didn’t say Azeris are Persians. He shows that Azeris have Iranian origin like Persians

The commentator is correct. He based his proof on his research in an Iranian dialect samples of which he found among the Safavids and which survived in some villages in Azerbaijan. He did not, however, make any argument about whether the Azerbaijanis were "pure" Iranians or "pure" Turks. Such a view was foreign to him at the time he wrote that article.130.156.7.7 15:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Evan Siegel

130.156.7.7,23 August 2006; are you Evan Siegel or you are quoting from him? Kiumars

[edit] Protected

Azerbaijani,

The words "solid", "showed" and "discovery" are almost never used in social scientific research. There are two excpetions to that: Duverger's finding about electoral systems and number of parties, and so called "democratic peace" idea. Even in these cases there are exceptions to the rule, and thus social scientists refrain from calling them discoveries. In that sense, he cannot "show" he can only "argue" or "claim". The conclusion cannot be a "discovery", it can be a "study" or say, a "reserach". Of course, what makes the wording above worse than what it already is (which has been unfortunately protected), is that it serves a political aim of making Azerbaijan just a marginal aspect of Iran. Azerbaijani, the user, is very active in other pages related to Azerbaijan (for instance, Azerbaijan) where he does just the same thing. Inserting wordings and paragraphs out of context with very questionable references (Armenian or pan-Iranian sources) regarding their objectivity to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani does all these, moreover, despite the overwhelming objections to his addiditions and deletions in the related discussion pages. What I do, on the other hand, cannot be interpreted as distorting anything or being offensive. I keep the main substance of the paragraph removing its biased political connotations that depict Azerbaijan as a leaf in the grand Iranian forest. This is childish. I am really sorry to deal with this. Opportunity cost is too high. Thank you. Elnurso 02:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Kasravi was known for advocating the assimilation of Azeri people with Persians. I think this fact should be reflected in the article. Please see the quote:

The idea of linguistic assimilation was espoused by a leading intellectual of Azarbaijan. Ahmad Kasravi, who has been described as the most controversial of modern Iranian thinkers, saw as his chief concern the transformation of a disunited Iran into what he hoped would be an integrated Iran at whatever the cost. He wrote his magisterial work, Tarikh-i Hijdah Saleh-i Azarbaijan (Eighteen years of history of Azarbaijan), to prove that the fate of Azerbaijan lay with the rest of Iran. He believed that Iran owed its backwardness to multidimensional disunity, and among the forces working for this condition were linguistic differences, which he considered as harmful as tribal loyalties. Kasravi's concern with the lack of linguistic unity began at the early stage of the constitutional movement, when the shah had attempted to fragment the reformist forces by playing up the differences between Persian- and Turkic-speaking liberals, and this concern grew stronger when the Ottomans tried to awaken separatist sentiments in Tabriz. In the mid 1920s, as Shah Reza was preparing for his assimilation campaign, Kasravi wrote a pamphlet titled Zaban-i Azari ya zaban-i bastani Azarbaijan (The Azari language; or, the ancient language of Azarbaijan), a venture into historical linguistics. Azari, the original language of Azarbaijan, had been closely related to Persian, and the influx of Turkic words began only with the Seljuk invasion. Therefore, the argument went, Turki was a foreign tongue imposed by conquerors, and the true national language of Azerbaijan was Azari, which survived only in geographical names and among inhabitants of a few remote villages. The belief in the intrinsically Iranian character of the Azeris, as well as in the need for national integration on the basis of Persian, was the essence of what became known as Kasravism (Kasraviyya).

Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russia and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition. ISBN: 0231070683

Another one:

Along with his own strong Iranian identity, Kasravi's unwavering commitment to eradicate any subidentities to Iranian identity calls into question his ability to conduct objective research on Azerbaijan. As Ernest Renan wrote: "Getting its history wrong is part of being a nation" (Renan, "What is A Nation?" p. 145). Kasravi himself claimed that historical materials on the origins of the Azerbaijanis in Iran were often manipulated to suit interested parties' needs in the political polemics raging in the area. (See Ahmed Kasravi, al-'Irfan, Tishrin I, 1922, pp. 121-123, Evan Siegal translation).

Brenda Shaffer. Borders and Brethren: Iran and the Challenge of Azerbaijani Identity.

Grandmaster 07:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Brenda shaffer is not reliable source but just a scholar for hire. Evan Siegel provided a very good response to her claim. As for Kasravi's research it has been quoted by the likes of Minorsky, Savory and Boseworth. Note Professor Swietochowski (see history of the name of Azerbaijan article) also agrees that the original language of Azerbaijan was not Turkic and thus he actually accepts Kasravi's thesis in the historical sense. Of course Kasravi did not put the theory out first either, it was Markwart and other scholars before Kasravi. --alidoostzadeh 03:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)