Talk:AH-1 Cobra

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Contents

[edit] Armaments

How come only the M197 gun is listed under araments? What about AGM-114 Hellfire, 70m rockets, AIM-9 sidewinders, and bombs? Adeptitus 21:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Because no one has added them or listed them. Be bold! --Falcorian (talk) 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Dont forget the TOW  :) Joe I 09:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ask not what Wikipedia can do for you, ask what you can do for Wikipedia :) HueyCobra 07:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Depending on how far down in the weeds you want to get, you can also mention that the Whiskey can carry 5.00 in Zunni rockets in a 4-shot pod. The 2.75 in rockets can be loaded in a 7-shot or 19-shot pod.--Mbaur181 02:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal on AH-1 specs

I'd like to propose we change the AH-1 Cobra specs from AH-1S to AH-1W/Z. The specs for AH-1W can be found here:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/supcobra/index.html#supcobra8

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/supcobra/specs.html

The reason for this suggestion is because the AH-1W represents a more modern model more than AH-1S.

-- Adeptitus 23:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I recommend having two models' specifications. For instance, the AH-1G and the AH-1W. This gives an idea of how the capabilities and qualities of the aircraft have changed since the original version was produced. (Born2flie 05:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC))
I have added AH-1W to the specs, thought the figures need to be updated. We can change this to AH-1Z when that model is fully in service (several years). -- BillCJ 00:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: unopposed troop drops

It soon became clear that the unarmed UH-1 troop helicopters were not able to make unopposed troop drops in the landing zones, but that heavy firepower would be needed to clear the Viet Cong and NVA troops out of the way first.

"Unopposed" keeps being changed to "opposed". At first glance, "opposed" seems to be correct, but it is not. I have checked the original source for this paragraph ((2004) International Air Power Review, Volume 12. AIRtime Publishing. ISBN 1-880588-77-3.), and it does read "unopposed". We may need to reword this sentence to make it clear what is meant. For now, I have put "unopposed" back in, as in the original source. --BillCJ 04:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is clearly a typo, if the source supports the "unopposed statement". What does the source state? What possible reason would render a helicopter unable to make unopposed landings that firepower would fix? --Mmx1 04:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be desirable for any helicopter to make an unopposed troop drop. It would be unable to do so if it were opposed, i.e. the enemy was firing at them. Firepower would clear the site, thus making it unopposed. Thus if the site had enemy gunners, the helicopter would not be able to make unopposed troop drops. I disagree that it is a typo.
--BillCJ 04:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
If the site had enemy gunners, wouldn't that constitute an opposed drop? Okay, I see what you mean; that sentence does need to be edited. It's not that the helicopters were unable to make unopposed troop drops; it's that there were no opportunities to make unopposed troop drops.--Mmx1 04:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Right.--BillCJ 04:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sioux Scout

If Bell 207 (Sioux Scout) is going to redirect to this article, the article should have a bit more about the development, and possibly a picture, of the Sioux Scout. (Born2flie 17:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC))

Once we get that much information on the Sioux Scout, it would make sense to give it its own article. --BillCJ 03:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I doubt there is enough information on the Sioux Scout out there to create its own article without violating the Wikipedia policy on original research. There is only one or two pictures on the web that I have seen over and over again in reference to the Sioux Scout. As far as a private industry endeavour, the aircraft and its associated program wasn't long-lived. I feel that, if created, it will remain a stub or start article. However, it is directly tied to Bell's development of the AH-1, and deserves credit here. If you would like to work on an article for it, you can reference these links. [1][2](Born2flie 12:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC))

I remember somewhere, that the Bell 47 demonstrator was called the Bell Warrior and the actual Sioux Scout was merely a body design that never flew. (Born2flie 03:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

Disregard, I had Iroquois Warrior mixed up with Sioux Scout. I'm straight now. (Born2flie 04:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

Or maybe your thinking of the kiowa Warrior OH-58D[[3]]ANigg 06:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

No. The Iroquois Warrier was a early-1960s Bell study based on the UH-1B with a tandem cockpit. It was a precursor to the Bell 209, but the rear cockpit was a lot higher than was used in the 209. Only mock-ups were ever made of the Iroquois Warrior. I've seen pics of it in books, and would love to find one we could use for this article. - BillCJ 07:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TH-1G?

The only reference I found for a TH-1G was here. On this site, I found a reference to a TH-1S circa 1970. Using the DoD references as shared on this site, I could only find a reference to a TAH-1S for the purpose of instructing AH-64 pilots.

Not quite sure this meets the definition of a variant, either. Still, I think it needs more research if it is to be included in the variants list to establish what the designation was. My bet would be on the TAH-1S as there are also references to TH-1s that are UH-1 variants. (Born2flie 01:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

The TH-1G/TH-1S (sometimes refered to as the Cadillac, only deployed at Ft Rucker, AL) has a hydraulic assist on the front Cyclic (short joystick type) to give it a 3.2 to 1 ratio increase which allows the IP in the front seat to have the same mechanical leverage as the full size cyclic in the rear seat. This and some armament override switches in the front cockpit are the only real differences from the AH-1S. (Which all the newer Cobras were - AH-1S(MOD), AH-1S(PROD), AH-1S(ECAS) and AH-1S(FMC), these were later changed). Excobrapilot 15:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Model 209

I had labeled this paragraph as unreferenced since several of the statements seemed beyond credibility, but the unreferenced tag is removed with only one reference:

  • Donald, David: Modern Battlefield Warplanes, page 165. AIRtime Publishing Inc, 2004. ISBN 1-880588-76-5

Since the requirement for references is that they be verifiable by the reader, and I have no access to the above volume, is this reference intended to apply to the whole paragraph or the statement it follows in the very last paragraph of this section? (Born2flie 01:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

It references most of the whole paragraph. I'm still new to citing here, so I'm not sure how exactly top cite the whole section.
The volume is a recently published book that is still available on the publisher's website. The section in the book on the Cobra is a reprint from (2004) International Air Power Review, Volume 12. AIRtime Publishing. ISBN 1-880588-77-3. , from which much of the Wiki article is taken (not word for word, but clearly sourced from it). If you feel we need a separate source, then by all means add the tags back. But the information is in the book; that's what I verified. As far as to the TH-1G, I haven't seen anything about it in that book yet. -- BillCJ 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I have just found a reference to the TH-1G in an older book I have (1990). It also mentions the TH-1S Night Stalker, a PNVS trainer for the AH-64A. Do you want the source information? -- BillCJ 01:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably where the references on those other sites I mentioned came from. No, I don't really care for that source information. Easy enough to check against official DoD designations to see that there were no official designations other than the TAH-1S I mentioned, earlier. (Born2flie 03:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

Well, issues I have are the claim that in 1965 the AAFSS was experiencing technical problems and that 1965 was the deadline for the AAFSS. The Source Selection Board (SSB) did not select Sikorsky and Lockheed as the winners of the Project Definition Phase until February 1965. Lockheed wasn't announced as the winner of the design competition until November 1965 and the Equipment Development contract wasn't awarded until March 1966. Comparatively, the Model 209 wasn't evaluated until late fiscal year 1965 (early autumn 1965) and wasn't awarded a production contract until April 1966. And, even though it had already flown, didn't enter theater until over a year later. There weren't technical problems as the author/editor suggests, but there was an impatience for something with more capability than a UH-1B/C and waiting for the AAFSS was going to take too long. Technical and political issues with the AH-56 began in 1967 as Lockheed attempted to adjust requirements to allow modifications to the design (reportedly increased rotor diameter) to meet performance requirements.1

Additionally, the article claims, "In Vietnam, events were also advancing in favour of the Model 209. Attacks on US forces were increasing, and by the end of June 1965 there were already 50,000 US ground troops in Vietnam." Not quite sure that this makes a case. It doesn't even make the case that UH-1B/C aircraft were inadequate to the job. The shortcomings of the UH-1B/C were slow speeds because of design and gross weight, not inability to support troops.

The article mentions the Piasecki 16H being evaluated. Army documents1 state that it was the H-16. The Piasecki website (piasecki.com) says that in 1964 the Air Force was interested in the turbine version and the Army was on board with that program. Since the Army was evaluating the CH-47 (and in fact, had test ACH-47s in theater), it is possible that it was the H-16 and not the 16H being evaluated for an interim aircraft. As it is, conflicting source documents suggest that somewhere else, another source needs to be introduced to validate one or the other.

  • 1 An Abridged History of the Army Attack Helicopter Program. (1973) Prepared by: Office of the Assistant Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, Office of the Director of Material Programs

(Born2flie 03:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

OK. Had I understood this from the beginning, I would have left the tag in. I simply misunderstood what you were asking to be verified. Anyway, we've confirmed that what is in the article is what was in the book.
As far as the UH-1s being inadequate to do the job or not, I can see where slow speed and gross weight would hinder the abillity to support troops. The aircraft were slower than the slicks they wer escorting, which could certainly affect troops on the ground waiting for reinforcements. Low gross weight would limit the amount of weapons that could be carried, which would affect support, especially if they ran out of weapons. Small quibble that could go either way, as this is more of a matter of interporetation by various sources. Your other points definitely need confirming one way or the other. -- BillCJ 04:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Piasecki H-16/16H

The Piasecki PV-15 Transporter (YH-16) was a 15-ton helicopter which flew c. 1953, and was not put into production. It resembles a larger version of the YHC-1A/CH-46, and "may" be a direct ancestor. So I am inclined to think that the 16H may be correct, tho I do not know what it is either. Piasecki had sold Vertol to Boeing c. 1959, but continued to make helicopters, tho I have no info on what they were producing in 1964 that would have made an interim solution. -- BillCJ 04:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I checked the Piaseki website you gave. At [4], the first line states, "In 1964, development of the H-16 was initiated in response to a U.S. Air Force requirement for a long range (1432 mi.) Rescue helicopter . . ." Yet further down, it states, "The first flight of the YH-16 was 23 October 1953." My printed source also gives a early-50's date, so I believe the "1964" is a typo.

[5] lists three compound aircraft: the 16H-1 (flown 1962), the 16H-1A (flown 1965), and the 16H-3 (never flown). The 16H-1A [6] appears to be the one in question here, as it was developed for the Army in 1964. Whether it was actually submitted for the Interim AAFSS remains to be seen. -- BillCJ 04:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Easy enough to check, I just emailed them to see if they had any info as to which one might have been considered. (Born2flie 02:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC))
Born2flie: The webmaster seemed confused by the question and I haven't received a reply since. Guess the Army may not be the only ones confused. Maybe a request to the Army Aviation Museum is necessary? --17:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Users - Saudi Arabia

Is/was Saudi Arabia really a user of the Huey Cobra? I've never seen any reference anywhere else to the Saudis owning them, with Bell 406CS scout helecopters and AH64 Apaches being the only attack helecopters owned. Nigel Ish 19:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Born2flie: This site[7] says, yes. However, this site[8] only lists the following countries as having AH-1 helicopters in service: Bahrain, Iran, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Pakistan, South Korea, Spain, Taiwan, Thailand and Turkey. Which is echoed by this site.[9] --00:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah Got say the Saudis don't have any Huey Cobras, AH-64 Yes. I think the site is inaccurate [10]all though this site has serial/Bu Number which I have to say is more on the ball [http://www.uswarplanes.net/uh1ah1.html

I'm gonna kill it in the users List until there's more evidence to proof otherwise. I can Promise you all 100% that the Saudi's don't have Cobras in there inventory —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ANigg (talk • contribs) 02:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree they don't have them now. But since we've been listing both past and present users together (they are now separate lists), can you aslo confirm that they never did use them? Thanks. - BillCJ 07:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Date

Born2flie: Akradecki, I noticed you undid/reverted the change to the Infobox date by an IP editor.

new users and unregistered users do not have any date preferences set, and will therefore see the unconverted ISO 8601 date.

– Wikipedia Manual of Style

I wonder if that was a necessary revert. In fact, the examples on the template show inputting dates as other than ISO 8601 format. Is there a Project discussion that I haven't found or come across (...again) on a WP:AIR guideline that suggests ISO 8601 format? --17:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chilean AH-1?

The following article, Chilean Army, has the following reference for Chile operating AH-1 aircraft:

"World Military Aircraft Inventory", Aerospace Source Book 2007, Aviation Week & Space Technology, 15 January 2007.

--Born2flie 21:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

But which version, the F or the W? I hadn't heard of Chile using the W in my sources, but they are a few years old. Just wanted to make sure on this. - BillCJ 21:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It's a reference, but the verifiability of the reference and what is being referenced is unclear. The book costs $49 from Aviationnow.com[11]. It's new, so maybe it is up-to-date? --Born2flie 03:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe someone in the project has a copy, or access to a copy. - BillCJ 04:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to buy a copy myself, but I'd rather preview the info to see if it is worth it. --Born2flie 04:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not worth it, I’ve been subscribing to AW&ST for years & I can tell you that info unfortunately is not accurate, in their source book. I’ll update ref; material ASAP FYI you can just go down to your local Library and check out the AW&ST 2007 Source book in the Magazine deptANigg 22:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna dump'em in the users List until there's more evidence to proof otherwise. I can Promise you all 100% that the Chilean & Egyptian Amries dont have Cobras in their inventory ANigg 06:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with ANigg on the Argentina reference that I added as well. Like most Central/South American countries, helicopters are part of the Air Force and not the Army. The Air Force website[12] lists UH-1. The uswarplanes.net website[13] shows that Chile received UH-1s, and the Argentine website also shows UH-1s in the inventory. What is likely, is that the CDI reference had misunderstood H-1 for AH-1, as it is the first H-1 one would come across alphabetically and it would fit the agenda of the article that was the reference for my addition. I think we need more than one independent reference to consider adding anything to this list of users. --Born2flie 14:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanx Born ANigg 22:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Operations map

the map [14] shows Saudi Arabia as a user country of AH-1 Cobra , and doesnt mark Egypt . while the article shows Egypt as a user country and not Saudi Arabia , shall we post some of the [citation needed] template here ? Ammar 13:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the map, as I can't find any evidence Saudi Arabia used Cobras. This is one reason I'm not much in favor of user maps - they can be inaccurate, and I've no clue how to change them! - BillCJ 06:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Egypt is definetly not a AH-1 Cobra User. They have AH-64 Apaches which they just up grade to longbows. [15] ANigg 17:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Having AH-64s doesn't automatically mean they don't have AH-1s too. Although they may not. -Fnlayson 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Egypt is definetly NOT a AH-1 Cobra User. They have AH-64 Apaches which they just up grade to longbows. [16] ANigg 18:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Find me a cobra & i'll be a beleiver [[17]]

  • They don't have an entry for Cobra images there. However, a search for Cobra on that domain turns up not hits. -Fnlayson 19:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Why do you keep removing operators without stating any reason what so ever in the edit summary? That could be taken as vandalism by some. -Fnlayson 23:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

He stated his reasons in the above section, tho I agree edit summaries would be helpful. Born and I agree the source for Argentinian use is somewhat questionable, given the "agenda" of the article and organization. As it's the only source we have, and given the article is 4 years old, I'm for leaving it out until we get more recent, independent confirmation. - BillCJ 23:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I see reasons for Egypt's and Chile's removals. I did put a verification needed tag on the Argentina reference. -Fnlayson 23:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
He thanked Born for his statements on Argentina, and then removed the item based on that. My interpretation anyway. :) - BillCJ 23:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • OK, I guess I'm just not sure then. I'll let others police this one henceforth.. -Fnlayson 23:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanx Bill & Fnayson. I apologize for the mix up in the edit summary I put it in. I thought talk page was suffient enough for comments on changes.ANigg 03:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks. I apologize too. I didn't go through the discussions above well enough before. -Fnlayson 03:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious operators

The article's operators section menitoned past and present. That past ones will be more difficult to check. Should the past part be removed?

Here are the entries that have been removed recently. -Fnlayson 23:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Flag of Argentina Argentina
    • 12 AH-1 aircraft transferred as Excess Defense Articles.[1]
  • Flag of Chile Chile
    • AH-1F (24 in use)

I think it should stay but at this point the only true past operator is the AH-1G for the spanish Armada [[18]] ANigg 03:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I've contacted the edtior at air forces monthly magazine, to see if they can give us any insight to this matter. They are very good source of info. The title of Air forces monthly isn't there for no reasonANigg 06:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tzefa what?

For those of us not bilingual in Urban Hebrew, can somebody translate? Trekphiler 00:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Makes you wonder what Google is for... --Born2flie 01:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

There is a mistake in the weight section

The AH-1W Super Cobra reads "Max takeoff weight: 14,750 lb (4,500 kg)"

I know that 14,750lb does not equal 4,500 kg, but I don't know if the lb needs changing to match the kg, or the kg to match the lb?

perfectblue 15:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

  • The pound values are probably correct. It was most likely designed in US customary units. It appears the F data was copied and changed for the W with the metric MTOW unchanged, since the F table lists 4500 kg as well. The globalaircraft page lists a MTOW of 14,750 lb (6691 kg). -Fnlayson 17:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Operators in Lead

There's 9 users listed in the lead now. (Upgraded versions continue to fly with the United States Marine Corps, the Islamic Republic of Iran Army Aviation and Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps Air Force, the Israeli Air Force, the Japan Self Defense Forces, the Republic of China Army, the Pakistan Army, the Republic of Korea Army, the Turkish Armed Forces and several other users.) Seems like listing the top 3-4 would be enough. From the numbers in the article, that'll be USMC (269), Iran (202), Japan (89), and Pakistan (78). Does that sound reasonable? -Fnlayson 23:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh my! I didn't realize it had gotten that big! I've gone ahead and cut it back to just the USMC. If you waat to put that list in the "More users" field in the infobox, that's fine with me. THe Lead is just supposed to be a summary, and the USMC is the primary user and developer of the type now. I'd like to see a good source on how many of the 202 AH-1Js Iran bought in the 70s are still operational, but the way everyone is caving into them politically, that's likey to be unknown for a long time. - BillCJ 23:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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