Talk:Ages of consent in Asia

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Contents 1 Russia - Asia or Europe? 2 Thailand 3 Age of prostitution now 20 in Thailand? 4 Thailand second issue

[edit] Russia - Asia or Europe?

Somewhat surprised to find Russia here. I always thought it was considered an Eastern European country. Or maybe it's just a Russian biassed POV? --Goldminer 11:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There used to be an editors' note somewhere here explaining that the divisions are based on the Seven Continent model and since most of Russia lies on the Asian continent it was thrown on that page.

There's many different views of this geography but we went with roughly the techtonic plates/continents model. It's not the only model but for the sake of dividing the World into roughly equal regions of Countries/States so that in the end of the excersise all the subpages are roughly the same size it was done this way (The US has 51 Jurisdictions for example). --Monotonehell 05:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Europe/Asia division is problematic. Eurasia is common reference nowaday while Europe, Orient (East Asia), Asia Minor are treated as different "geographical" area. I'm quite sure PC movement would eventally catch on. Vapour

The divisions currently in place are more to have a similar number of countries/states on each subpage. There's at least 7 different schools of thought as to how to divide up the continents continent. This reminds me - I keep forgetting to put a link on the Europe page for Russia. *does such* --Monotonehell 10:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thailand

There's some concern with Thailand. I can't find the actual legislation in English, although I suspect it's on this page... [1] there are English translations but not of the penal code so far. Firstly there's Interpol's extracts here. Annoyingly Interpol never cite their sources (very unprofessional) and it looks like Interpol's extracts have been superceeded by a new act Art 279 CC. But I can't find a reliable source (or any source for that). Lending this weight is the fact that the provention and supression of prostitution act and this 1997 admendment to the penal code both have age borders at 15 and 18.

I would simply make the AOC 15 and cite that law however the recent addition of the text below citing the procescution of an adult band member for sex with a 17 year old casts doubt on this. Unless the aledged event occured more than 2 years prior? Can anyone cast any light on this?

The text I moved from the article According to several websites, the age of consent in Thailand is 15 years of age. If the person is engaged in prostitution, whether in a licensed premises or not, then the age of consent is 18 years ILGA Legal Survey based on 1999 data ^{[citation needed]}

However, the accuracy of this information is questionable. In February 2006 a statutory rape charge was filed against the lead singer of the Thai band Big Ass for allegedly having had sex with a 17 year old girl DNA test clears 'Dag' The Nation, 20 May 2006. --Monotonehell 08:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

See User_talk:Lerdsuwa#Big_Ass where Lerdsuwa, who lives in Thailand, claims the age of consent is 18. If you can read Thai, you may also be interested in the references given in Big Ass. I will try to contact someone from the Thai Wikipedia to get clarity on this. For now I have restored the text above, since I think it's important that we state what we know and that we counter what might very well be misinformation on a number of websites; also all statements in the given text are properly sourced. AxelBoldt 09:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"...For now I have restored the text above, since I think it's important that we state what we know and that we counter what might very well be misinformation on a number of websites..."

That's the point, we don't know anything. The only way we can counter all this conjecture is by citing actual up to date legislation. I can understand how some old references say 13, as that was the law before amended. But the only reference to the amendment Art279CC cites 15 as the current AoC. As it stands we have one citation of law that states 15, and a vague newspaper reference that confuses the issue. This is why I withdrew the section to the talk page. Currently none of the statements are verified and in fact they are contradicting each other. As per established consensus on the Age of consent pages, the prefered reference for law is a citation of the legislation, a link to the same if possible or an extract.

Above I've put a link to the site in Thai that I believe has the Penal Code that we need to verify. Unfortunately I can't read Thai. So if you can get help from That speakers that would be great.

--Monotonehell 10:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*** Talk below is moved from Thai Wikipedia:Talk Main page***

Please excuse my writing in English here. A question came up over in the English Wikipedia at the article about the Thai group Big Ass. The lead singer Dax was accused of having had sex with a 17 year old girl, and statutory rape charges were filed. Our Age of consent in Asia page listed an age of consent for Thailand of 15 (and 18 when prostitution is involved). Is that information correct, or is sex with a person under the age of 18 always illegal in Thailand? Thanks a lot, en:User:AxelBoldt 09:35, 5 มกราคม 2007 (UTC)

OK, I want to know as well so I searched online for information a little bit. I cannot find anything that talks about "Age of consent" or its concept directly. From what I found, I semi-conclude the age of consent is 15 based on the criminal law #277. It mentions about rape under 15 years old girl^[1] either forcibly or not can result in 4-20 years of prison, 8,000-40,000 baht or both. There are however other related laws which Big Ass is charged for (and also other special cases and so forth). Based on #283 it states that anyone who take away the person from 15 to 18 years ago and perform obscene? (I believe it could tranlate to rape or Statutory rape) can result in max of 7 years in jail, max of 10,000 baht or both .... Hmm.. may be someone else with expertise with Thai laws can help you --Jutiphan | พูดคุย - 11:51, 5 มกราคม 2007 (UTC)

*** Talk above is moved from Thai Wikipedia:Talk Main page*** --Jutiphan 12:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Criminal law #283 must be the one. Do we have an English or Thai version of that article, maybe at [2]? It is now also confirmed that the girl was 16 years old when the alleged sex act took place that lead to the recent high-profile case against the prominent Big Ass lead singer. AxelBoldt 19:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As I always heard from the media, they always say that the age of consent in Thailand is 18. And my understanding is that prostitution in Thailand is illegal ? --Manop - TH 23:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

After I've done some research, I got the conclusion that the age of consent in Thailand is 15. It was changed from 13 to 15 in 1987 (the Criminal Law 8th edition, 1 September 1987). For the semi-prostitution (since it's illegal in Thailand), the age is 18. In the BigAss case, it seems to me that it's kind of prostitution but the media never talked about this. --Manop - TH 00:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Since this is discussed so much. I will try to get the article about this started in Thai Wikipedia --Jutiphan 01:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I just wrote an article about this in Thai. Hopefully once people see it may comment and make corrective changes to it --Jutiphan 03:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

---

I copied the following from User talk:Lerdsuwa who first documented the affair on Big Ass. AxelBoldt 18:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I can only find Thai version. The full criminal law is at http://www.kodmhai.com/m2/m2-2/thailaw2-2.html and the relevant section about sexual abuse is at this page: http://www.kodmhai.com/m2/m2-2/m2-309-321.html for Section 317 (age not over 15, with or without consent), 318 (age 15-18 without consent) and 319 (age 15-18 with consent)

• Section 317 Those who takes child age not over 15 years old from parent or guardian, 3-15 years sentence and 6000-30000 baht fine. This includes those who buys, sells or acquires child obtained via the earlier means. If it's for profit or obscenity, 5-20 years sentence and 10000-40000 baht fine.
• Section 318 Those who takes child age over 15 but not over 18 years old from parent or guardian without child's consent, 2-10 years sentence and 4000-20000 baht fine. This includes those who buys, sells or acquires child obtained via the earlier means. If it's for profit or obscenity, 3-15 years sentence and 6000-30000 baht fine.
• Section 319 Those who takes child age over 15 but not over 18 years old from parent or guardian with child's consent for profit or obscenity, 2-10 years sentence and 4000-20000 baht fine. This includes those who buys, sells or acquires child obtained via the earlier means.

-- Lerdsuwa 16:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Are these sections above speaking about age of consent or; prostitution and child trafficing? Because these are separate issues, unless the Thai law enforcement agencies are (mis)interpreting them to apply in any and all cases. --Monotonehell 03:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to hinge on the interpretation of the term "obscenity" in 319. Does this refer to ordinary sexual intercourse, or does it mean something like pornography, prostitution or extraordinary sex acts?

Also, we should look at a translation of 283 that was mentioned above. AxelBoldt 22:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

From what I've seen so far it looks like the article needs to be worded something like this;

"The age of consent in Thailand is 15, (cite referrence to legislation) however the laws regarding protitution and obsenity are often interpreted by the local authorities in such a manner as to ostensibly make the age of consent 18 (cite referrences supporting this here)."

Or something similar, once we have worked out all the legislation and issues involved. It seems like it's a complex one. That's why I moved the section from the article to here initially. --Monotonehell 02:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that in cases of prostitution, the age of consent is 18 based on 282 and 283. OK I see it's already included. --Jutiphan 18:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

For completeness of discussion, here is a rough translation of other sections from http://www.kodmhai.com/m2/m2-2/m2-276-287.html . It was not given above in Big Ass discussion because the victim still lived with parent and the stiffer section 319 applies. (Child's parent(s) is also counted as crime victim.) Section 317-319 is in the part about crime against freedom. The sections below are under crime against sex.

• Section 277 Those who has sex with girl age not over 15 years old who is not own wife, with or without consent, 4-20 years sentence and 8000-40000 baht fine.
• If girl's age is not over 13 years old, 7-20 years sentence and 14000-40000 baht find or life sentence.
• If it's gang rape or done with weapon, sentence to life.
• For those who has sex with girl age over 13 but not over 15 years old with consent and later the court allows marriage between the male and the girl, offender do not have to penalized. If the court allows marriage while the male is jailed, he will be released.
• Section 277bis for offense according to Section 277 clause 1 and 2 causing the victim
  • to be severely injured, 15-20 years sentence and 30000-40000 baht fine, or life sentence
  • to be dead, death sentence or life sentence.
• Section 277tri ... (like Section 277bis but for gang rape or with weapon, harsher penalty.)
• Section 283bis Those who bring child age over 15 but not over 18 years old for obscenity, with or without consent, sentenced not exceeding 5 years, or fined not over 10000 baht, or both fined and sentenced. This offence can be settled by both sides.
• Those who bring child age over 15 but not over 18 years old for obscenity, with or without consent, sentenced not exceeding 5 years, or fined not over 10000 baht, or both fined and sentenced.

(Section 282, 283 are for those who arrange the sex trade, again stiffer penalty for those under 18 and under 15.)

As far as I know, prostitution is not legal. But it isn't enforced because many women rely on it for living. Can't say this for girls/boys not over 18 years old though. Here are some more news for references:

• http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/02/08/national/national_20000527.php
• http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/22/opinion/opinion_30011609.php

-- Lerdsuwa 09:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Age of prostitution now 20 in Thailand?

This quite a controvery and the fact that local authorities may be interpreting the 15 to 18 part of the law in their own interests in contradictory ways complicates the matter also. In my experience it is common knowledge to me from Thais on the street that the non-prostitutional age of consent is 15 and even the age of 18 for prostition seems to have changed to 20 in recent years. I have no idea if this is the national law or perhaps local council regulations as councils do regulate gogo bars and this 20 age was true in Pattaya a couple of years ago: ~2004. I am surpised that with all the Thai usernames I see on the postings here this and the 15 years controversy hasnt been adequately resolved yet. Mattjs 15:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest two things:

(1) In the interests of discouraging under age sex and child prostitution in compliance with the CRC etc (United Nations Conventions on the Rights of the Child including another on child pornography and prostitution) that we keep the age of consent in the Prostitution in Thailand article as it stands at 18 (or 20 see below) whatever the other age of consent line of articles may or may not say about a non-prositution age of 15 as for virtually all visitors or tourists the legal age will be 18 and perhaps as I have indicated now 20. Mattjs 15:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

(2) Contact someone like EMPOWER an NGO who are not just adult prositution neutral but sex worker rights pro-active (both as i am) so they should indeed have all the answers from practical experience operating on the street with their clients. I am tempted to email them seeking the answers - particularly given this new 20 year question - and providing links here and asking them to contribute as they can certainly provide a sex workers perspectives to the Prostitution in Thailand article. Regards, Mattjs 15:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if we can get some clarification on this issue. The information I have I only found by a lot of digging around. Not being able to read Thai I can't go to the government's site that I mentioned above to read the legislation directly, so I'm forced to go to third party translations. Please note that we need direct citation of legislation and if possible translations of the relevent sections to verify any claims we make in the article.

It's also important that we do separate the age of consent information from the prostitution information. Normally the articles in the AoC group do not speak about prostitution at all. However if the local authorities are using these laws to charge consentual acts above the age of 15 then as a side note we should include the fact.

Where did this age of 20 come from? I haven't seen that anywhere in my research as yet. --Monotonehell 15:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The 20 comes form my practical experience on the gorund from the mouth of the many thai bar girls and bars in Pattaya around two years ago (~2004). Go there, phone there, or talk to someone like EMPOWER unless they have changed it again. This may be specific to Pattaya alone I have no absolutely no idea but reason I mentioned local councils.

One last point, and I know only a little about the Big Ass case as does everyone else it seems, one may take it as an anomaly. Perhaps the laws are deliberately, even politically phrased, so that they can then be at times interpreted and used to the advantage of certain vested interests as this is very typical Thai politics. This is only amplified by the fact that the case never went to court as the charges were dropped so therefore no legal precedent was ever set and so the Big Ass case should then be taken with a grain of salt. Other cases and local council antics that actually lead to prosecutions would be of interest. Its a shame we dont get enough real experts on subjects like this at Wikipedia - an english speaking Thai lawyer who has actually worked on under age sex cases would have all the answers here and since this sort of thing is fairly wide spread in Thailand should be alot of case law. Although gain I would be circumspect about cases at the lowest level of the Thai courts until they have made it up several rungs of the hierarchy on appeal. In the same vien though perhaps only those cases that are politically motivated i.e. with a politcal sponsor actually get to court and through the courts as bribery and influence can prevent them ever seeing the light of day... bummer ... guess this could mean we will never have a defintive answer on the 15 to 18 (or 15-20?) range.

Maybe, where the prostitution age is mentioned at all then the "politics" or influence and corruption and the controversy surrounding should be menitoned as well in any article that refers to thsi age. Mattjs 15:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it confirmed that the Big Ass case has been dropped? If so, then this should be documented on Big Ass and would provide yet more evidence that the 15/18 age-of-consent is correct. Was there every any allegation of prostitution in the Big Ass case? AxelBoldt 23:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes a mention of the 15-18 age controversy given the wide "offensive behaviour" interpretation should be mentioned. Given that any foriegner sleeping with a 15 - 18 year old may be taken by the thai authorities as sex for money purely by virtue of being a tourist regardless of whether any money or kind is offered. In this case suggesting a 15 year age rather than 18 (or 20) could be disingenius without elaborating upon this issue. I think I have made a valid and sigificant point here but dont worry as I have no axe to grind. BUT if I were a foriegner (as i am) I would want to know this full story. For this reason alone my conclusion is that it is just not worth emphasing this 15 year old age. Mattjs 16:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying is the article is good how it stands? --Monotonehell 17:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Except for (and without any case law to verify the following): the 20 years..., and the risk of 15 possibley being applicable to Thai nationals only (with even the partners needing to be seemingly of verisimilar ages given the "offensive behavour" type wording of the statutes and suggestion from the Big Ass thing) and therefore very risky for a non-thai foriegn national, Yes. All this will might even be influenced - but now I am entirely guessing - by an "age of marriage" law that is lower or non existent one has to remember that there are hill tribes or native peoples who for all I know - again guessing - might even marry at a very young age like 13... All very complicated stuff. "age of marriage" is not the same as "age of consent" as I have learned and often undermines the latter as you may be aware (this is an issue I have learnt of from a loophole I have discovered in the extra-terrirotrial Australian Child Sex Tourism laws). Some countries - e.g. some moslem ones as an example - have a very young "age of marriage" indeed. 220.240.58.190 17:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

This group of articles are not concerned with Marriageable age except where it dictates age of consent (eg in places where sex outside marriage is illegal). Nor are they concerned with prostitution, again except where it dictates age of consent (as it looks like it may do in Thailand). What we need are concrete references to actual laws and practices in Thailand (and most of the other entries on this page). Unfortunately non-verified conversations someone had with a local in a bar and speculation do not meet wikipedia's verify guidelines. --Monotonehell 18:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary it is _all_ local female sex workers at _all_ bars in Pattaya Thailand who if they have an answer to the question will reply with 20 and is entirely verifiable with a phone call to police or visit there. I do suspect though that it may well be a local council by-law as there is significant regulation particularly in Pattaya and it might even just be the bar or liquor license that prohibits sex workers under 20... I will endeavour to find out more and contact someone like EMPOWER etc. If I visit again the near future I will get hard copy evidence. BUT you are right little of this is relevant here rather in Prostitution in Thailand and other places... 220.240.58.190 08:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The article on Soi Cowboy (Bangkok) documents the signs at all these gogo bars: "no one inside below the age of 20". This seems to be a regulation on the age of people allowed in these places and unrelated to age-of-consent issues. It seems understandable that any woman working in such a bar will state her age as 20 or above. AxelBoldt 23:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

So much on this. About 20, it is the now the minimum age to go to bars and stuff, but not related to age of consent or age of marriage or anything like that. Don't get confused. --Jutiphan 23:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thailand second issue

What wrong with the sentence that "age of consent in Thailand - misunderstood - for women only," clarify please. --Manop - TH 06:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh sorry! I forgot to include that in the rewrite. I was going to ask, do you have any referrences that back up this claim? Thanks for reminding me. I'll put the point back in. --Monotonehell 08:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)