Talk:Afsharid dynasty

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Contents 1 Afshrid dynasty 2 origin 3 Zaparojdik 4 I am afshar and I am Turkish.

[edit] Afshrid dynasty

This site needs many improvements if possible can someone please add information and pictures... I have done my best to improve on this.Pedram 4:01 PM ET, June 6, 2005

[edit] origin

While the "Afshars" as a people belong to the Oghuz Turkic tribes, (as far as I am informed), Nadir Shah was not of Turkic origin. He was a native Persian of Khorasan. He and his mother were captured as prisoners and slaves by the invading Uzbek Khans when Nadir was stiull a child. Some time later, he managed to escape while his mother was killed by the Uzbeks. As a young boy, he found refuge in an Afshar settlement in Khorasan. He was adopted by the chief of the tribe and thus called himself "Nadir-e Afshar". Tajik 09:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Right, since we have Court-TV footage of these events that make them undisputable :)) Where is the source and proof for this heart-braking story? "He managed to escape while his mother was killed by the Uzbeks".. There better be sources to colloborate this story, since it makes specific allegations. Bunch of legends and family-fire stories told at night doesn't make them real.. Where are the eye-witness stories? :) Baristarim 12:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zaparojdik

Incase you decide to revert again, I'm making this comment and posting the evidence. The Afsharids were an Iranian dynasty and they thought of themselves so, see this coin: [1]Khosrow II 19:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, all the coins minted at the time had "Iran Zameen" on them, proving that Afsharids thought of themselves as Iranians, and therefore were an Iranian dynasty. --Mardavich 10:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, they ruled over Persia, of course they were going to have to speak its language and cater to local sensitivities, that doesn't make their Oghuz-Turkic origins disappear, right? Baristarim 12:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Another thing: Nadir Shah was Sunni, not Shia, so, considering the importance of religion for self-identification back then, how is that a sign of him considering himself "Iranian"? If he considered himself Persian, he would have become Shia, now wouldn't he?? Gees, what the heck is going on? Baristarim 12:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Nadir Shah and his sons were not of Turkic origin, he was only raised by the original Turkic tribe, and later assumed their leadership. He was Iranian, and so was his dynasty, and that's what they called themselves as you can see on their coins. Religions is irrelevant here, many Iranian dynasties were Sunni.--Mardavich 12:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean Turkic dynasties that ruled over Persia were Sunni, I think. Of course they were going to cater to local sensitivities, what were they going to do? Print Turkic coins in Iran? I just don't get it, why is it so hard to accept that Persia has been ruled over by many Turkic tribes for centuries? This is just historical reality. Baristarim 12:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Turkic and Sunni are not synonymous. Neither Nadir Shah nor his dynasty were Turkic, they called themselves Iranians. Infact, they fought the Ottoman Turks, and they defeated the Ottoman Turks on several occasions. --Mardavich 12:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And that proves?? Turks also have fought between themselves for centuries, just like the Germanic tribes have done.. Don't confuse ambition for power with ethnic origin.. He was raised by a Turkic tribe, but was not Turkic? It is pretty safe to assume that when you grow up in a family you kinda pick up on the culture.. So, it is even better, Nadir was Turkic by his upbringing.. I mean, I don't get this: there are Turkic elements popping up at every corner in every argument used to prove that they were Persian, you cannot simply put an intro that overlooks this fact as if they dropped from heaven.. That's all I am saying.. Baristarim 12:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No, they didn't drop from heaven, they were Iranian, they were born and raised in Iran, they called themselves Iranian, practiced Iranian culture, and spoke Persian. Learn to live with it, the world doesn't revolve around Turks or Turkey. --Mardavich 13:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Kinda funny that Tajik says the opposite above when he says that Afshars were Oghuz Turkic.. Interesting.. The reality is that a Turkic tribe simply ruled over Persia, because they were stronger.. That's all.. Baristarim 13:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Who is talking about a tribe here? Read Tajik's comment, Afsharid dynasty were not Turkic! Nader Shah was not Turkic! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why are you removing the word "Iranian" from the intro, when the Afsharid dynasty called themslves Irannian and this is documented on their coins, official proclamations etc? Put aside your Turkish nationalistic feelings and be reasonable for once. --Mardavich 13:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim, your not making any sense. The Seljuks also spoke Persian and promoted Iranian culture, along with most other Turkic dynasties of the region. Nadir shah considered himself Iranian, as did the Seljuks, and Ghaznavids. By the way, what did the Ottoman coins say? Did they say Rome on them? Because according to you, Nadir Shah was only trying to please the locals, so why didnt the Ottomans do the same thing?Khosrow II 16:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

My comment at the beginning of the discussion is wrong. Nadir Shah was a Persian-speaking Turcoman from Khorasan. He was not really an "Afshar", but a "Qirqlu" Turcoman. He lost his parents at a very early age and was adopted by the Khan of the Afsharids.

However, the dynasty created by Nadir was certainly not "Turkic" or "Turkish". It was an Iranian kingdom which understood itself as a continuation of the previous Iranian Shahdoms. That's why he adopted the title "Shah".

See the article "Afshars" in Iranica.

As for Baristarim: 90% of his comments are nonsense. Claiming that "Turks ruled in Iran because they were stronger" is pure nonsense, because none of the dynasties in the Islamic world was "pure". At the time of Nadir Shah, the overwehleming majority of the armies - both in the Ottoman Empire as well as in Iran - were Non-Iranian and Non-Turkish, because both groups - though known as fierce fighters throughout history - had lost all fighting qualities. The Iranianm Turcoman soldiers were already replaced by loyal Armenian and Georgian elite fighters, the Ottoman army consited largely of converted European soldiers. In addition, the army of Nadir Shah was dominated by another elite group, the Ghilzai Pashtuns of Afghanistan, who were fierce fighters - and still are fierce fighters until today. They were regarded a Martial Race by the British who were never able to fully subdue the Pashtuns. Along with the Pashtuns, another relatively unknown group made its appearance as "fighters", the Tajiks of Panjsher and Badakhshan. Although these Tajiks" (modern Panjsheris - see also: United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan or Ahmad Shah Massoud) were already known to Babur (whose army was dominated by Badakhshani Tajiks), they were quite unknown until they defeated the British army during the Anglo-Afghan wars (they are known as "Kohistanis" in historical documents[2]). These regions had always been autonomous and were only ruled by the local tribal leaders (until today; that's why Afghanistan is still such a mess).

In the 18th century, Turks did not play any major role as "fighters" or "conquerors". The Ottoman Empire was a dying nation, the Central Asian Turks were overrun by Russian armies in the following decades, Anatolia was overrun by allied forces.

Tājik 22:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tajik, Nader shah defeated the ghilzai pashtuns, and conquered afghanistan, later he used them in his army as something like "pawns". The brittish were perhaps not able to subdue the pashtuns, but many others did, including nader shah as said before. Ghilzai pashtuns previously had defeated the remaining safavids, conquering most of persia, including its capital Isfahan, in which they cut the head of 70,000 civilians and built a monument with them, showing the world what a martial race as you call them can do to unarmed civilians. After some 7 years they were defeated by nader shah, the invading force which was trying to flee were all hunted down and killed, including their leader ashraf.

Baristarim, i myself am a ghashgai Iranian, one of the tribes turks claim as their own, much like the afsharids we have nothing to do with turks, we are more Iranian than the people in Irans great cities. It seems you claim every dynasty that defeats you as your own, the safavids and their ghezelbash, and the afsharids are two of which. --213.113.243.25 14:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear IP, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that Nadir Shah defeated the Ghilzai in mainland Persia, but that he only managed with the help of rival Durrani Pashtuns. Actually, I did a mistake in my previous comment: not the Ghilzai were allied to Nadir Shah, but the Durrani. Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder of modern Afghanistan, was Nadir Shah's high ranking general and his personal bodyguard - his 4,000 soldiers were the elite of the Persian army and the major force in Nadir Shah's invasions in India.

What I am trying to say is that Baristarims claim that "Turks were stronger as the rest ... blah blah blah" is pure nonsense. People back then did not fight in the name of certain nationalities, the identified themselvs with their religion and their loyalty to a certain king - no matter wether that king was an Arab, a Turk, or a Persian. By the time of Nadir Shah, Turks were not the same fighters they used to be a few centuries earlier ... they had already been replaced with mighty fighters from all corners of Asia, most notably from the Pashtun areas, from the Caucasus, and from the Pamir region.

And none of the dynasties back then actually identified themselvs as "Turks", "Persians", or "Indians".

Tājik 18:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

If none of them identified themselves as such, why are we referring to them as "Persian" in the intro then?? We can say "a dynasty of Persia/Iran" in that case.. Look Tajik, I definitely agree with you that such ethnic identifications were not common back in the day, but all I am trying to say is that it is the preference of one over another is what is inappropriate.. And don't jump so easily on my flamebaits :))) I didn't say that "Turks were stronger than the rest blah blah".. I was just trying to say that they were stronger for a period in Central Asian-Middle Eastern history.. They were not, however, strong at all in 18th, 19th centuries.. Baristarim 20:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"Iranian dynasty" with a Wiki-Link to Iran is OK. However, the old version of the text, namely "Turkic dynasty", was deffínitly wrong.

Tājik 21:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I am afshar and I am Turkish.

Unoubtedly Afsharid dynasty is originally Oghuz Turkic tribe. Since I am afshar and I am and Oghuz Turkish.