Talk:Advance fee fraud

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    Contents

    [edit] Early notes

    This article has several repetitive sections, especially an unnecessarily repeated statement that the scams are not exclusive to Nigeria. The repetitiveness needs to be cleaned up. __________________________________________________ Added some notes about how the spams are actually sent, and included a reference to the Spanish Letter scam, of which the 419 is merely a (highly visible) variant. Also moved the FTC warning from the "How The Scam Operates" section, where it really didn't fit in, to the introduction (although I dont think it really fits there either.Twisto 21:45, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

    "Spyware" is software used to collect personal information on a victims PC - "Spamware" is software used to send unsolicited bulk email. They don't want to spy on their own machines, they want to send spam from them.Twisto 11:07, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

    Is the bad check scam really an example of the Nigerian money transfer fraud? Populus 17:20, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

    I agree, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 419 fraud cases, except perhaps that most of the scammers are living in Nigeria. But the defining characteristic of 419 scams is that the victim is asked to help smuggle money out of a country, not the fact that the perpetrator lives in Nigeria. It's not even an "advanced fee fraud", because you aren't paying any money before you (theoretically) get more money back. -- Khym Chanur 04:58, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)
    The bad check scam is definately an example of the Nigerian money transfer fraud, since it usually only works via wireing money to a country like Nigeria where the police either don't have the resources or dont care to figure out who actually recieved the money in that bank. It would be much harder to pull that type of thing here (meaning have the recieving bank being a US bank), as it would involve semi sophisticated identity theft as well.
    The cheque/bankers draft scam is definitely carried out by the same groups as the 419s and lotto scams. I'll add some notes on the main MOs to the article, as this is an area I can claim some knowledge (from the investigative side, rather than the victim/perpetrator side, thankfully). I don't know whether (from a purely academic POV) the later scams belong in this article though - a pointer to a separate article might be appropriate, but as much of the content would be identical, it might be a little redundant. Twisto

    [edit] A new kind of Nigerian scam

    It appears that Nigerians that use a free personals site www.bookofmatches.com and a free friends site www.myspace.com have contacted me countless times wanting a relationship. They usually send me a picture of a beautiful African woman posing in a professional photo. They seem to prey on lonely men in richer parts of the world. This is a conversation that I have been having with one woman who claims to be a US citizen but is conducting "business" in Nigeria.

    * Date:     Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
* From: Send an Instant Message "Carolina" <xxxxxx@yahoo.com>  Add to Address BookAdd to 
* Address 
* Book
* Yahoo! DomainKeys has confirmed that this message was sent by yahoo.com. Learn more
* Subject:      Re: HELLO MATT.
* To:   "Matt" <xxxxxxxxxx>
* Thank you so much for your response and I appreciate your concern about my health, I am only 
* surprised the way you took my request, I am never a scammer but a legit and truthful human, I  
* didnt like the way you refered me as one of the 419, no no, it is unbecoming of you to say such a
* thing,I never thought you have too much of money or that you are a millionaire, it is different 
* from that totally. My condition is tight and I gat no other means of of raising this fund,that is 
* the reason why I mailed you and with the real and truthful intention of refunding you immediately 
* I arrive the states or even when I get my money from the financier in the states, they have called
* 2 days ago that they would pay me in check but, I made them understand that there is no way I can 
* cash it here in africa,but I think I should infrom you about this if you could help cash it but, 
* it is going to * be in the mid next month before they will approve my loan anyway.
* 
* I am thinking about you seriously but, here you are doubting me, I am just after my ill-health at 
* the moment and later on I will see to the aspect of getting my busines firm again.
* 
* I am promising you that I will refund you and can even pay more than that 500 I reuest of you, I 
* gat no means of raising it at the moment but have hope of getting it later when I am strong again
* and I will refund you immediately, I can even make a written agreement of this if you are doubting  
* me.
* 
* I want to beg you for one thing, I dont want you to in anyway liken me to any scammer or refer me 
* to the Nigeriam 419 code, I dont like it at all cos' I work so hard for everr dime I get, kindly 
* bear this in mind.
* 
* However, I will infrom you when the financier approve of paying me and if it would still be in 
* check, then you be helping me to cash it and and may be you will even deduct your money from it if 
* you are able to help me raise it.
*
* 
* I want you to note that I am a God fearing human and would not do you no harm in any way.
*
* I am writing you this mail in tears cos you made me remember my lost properties and investments 
* worths Millions of Naira.
* 
* Anyway, let meread from you soonest.
*
* 
* bye.
* 
* Carro.
* --------------------------------------------------- 
* Hello Carolina, how is the weather in Nigeria? I
* really hope your health gets better. I dont know why
* you are asking me for money. I will never, give
* anyone money that is in Nigeria.
* 
* You should look up the Nigerian law code and look up
* code 419. ;-)
*
*
* --------------------------
* Hello Matt,
* hope all is okay by you ? how are you doing health
* wise and otherwise.
* I tried to call you but could not just get thru,i
* guess the number is somewhat incorrect so , would
* want you to give me the correct number again.
*
* I actually need you to grant me a favour which could
* be some how hard but like I told you, I am not in
* good condition of health and my friends here would
* not do much help cos I didnt help them transfer
* thier money to the states the last time when I
* talked to you about it.
*
* I will be so much appreciative if you could grant me
* the IOU of more or less than 500 till I arrive the
* states, I need to complete my treatment due to my
* sickly health and the hospital bill is yet to be
* balanced,plus I need to get my flight ticket to the
* states which costs alot here ,so I cant all alone do
* all these ,this is the more reason why I am pleading
* that you grant me this IOU and I promise to return
* it to you immediately I arrive the states.
*
* Yes, the fact could still stand out that we are yet
* to meet in person, but the picture you and your way
* of handling things convinces me that you are a good
* hun to be with and may the LORD bless you for that.
* My own picture as well I belive would have told you
* something about me but, this is yet to be revealed
* to me by you.
*
* I am counting on you for this request.
*
* Thanks and God bless.
* Roselyn loves you.
*
* __________________________________________________
* Do You Yahoo!?
* Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
* protection around
* http://mail.yahoo.com


    They now purportedly come from Russian females.

    Jackiespeel 16:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Name change

    I've modified the name of this article; "advance fee fraud" is the canonical name of this type of fraud. -- ChrisO 22:48, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Tech-savvy?

    Not to be anally politically correct, but isn't this a bit of a sweeping generalisation:

    "The often very professional layout of web pages and so on used in the scams suggests that they do not lack technical sophistication at least at the upper levels of the gangs. Alternatively, the gangs may hire experts from tech-savvy (i.e. non-African) parts of the world."

    Some of the best technical expertise in the world can be found in South Africa, as one mere example, to say nothing of Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria itself.......It just seems a little unfair! -- TheManWithNoName 17:42, 30 Nov 2005 (GMT)

    [edit] Nigerian Renting Scam

    I put our apartment up for rent and within 2 days was contacted by a man who said he wanted it and was working for the UN in Nigeria. He said he'd fly from there to England and then to Canada to sign the papers on the apartment. Via email, he sent us a scanned photo of his passport to show how serious he was about the apartment. He said he would deposit the downpayment ASAP - all he needed was our bank account number. He said he'd also send us $2000 more -- to deduct the rent from it and to send the rest to a friend called "Okewole Kazeem" who lives in Nigeria. He said he knew it was a big favor and was desperate. Throughout his frequent emailings during the two weeks, I noticed his english was very strange for someone born and raised in the UK. His grammar was similiar to the woman in that african email that is posted above. He was very chatty and friendly, and said that he wanted to meet me for dinner the next week to sign the contract on the apartment. He also asked for my "land phone and mobile phone." I gave him one -- and then he asked for my MSN messenger so that we could get to know each other. This sounded even stranger and was just way too "friendly." The name on his passport was Robert Bennett, yet he had his own name confused when emailing -- signing it Bennett Roberts. His email even contracted his own last name: benroberts334@yahoo.com (these scam artists always use yahoo addies). I started searching on the net for his name to see if he was some criminal on the loose but found nothing... until I searched for his "friend" Okewole Kazeem. The first link stated that this name was always used in the Nigerian Scams. I was really shocked -- but all the clues added up. All of that trouble and in the end there is no renter for the apartment. Here are a few examples of what he wrote to me when I listed the apartment:


    • Email #1: The Details: I'm Mr bennett Roberts, a british, I'm working with the UN in Nigeria so i just got posted to canada.That will take effect from the end of June so i will like to rent an apartment where i will stay when i get over there. I will be expecting from you ASAP so that we can agree on the payment terms.Though i will prefer a direct transfer of the money into your account. Thanks, Bennett


    • Email #2: Hello, That will be great.I think $700 is okay. I will like to have your bank account details that will be necessary in making the transfer of the money.i have a creditor that owes me some money and he's ready to transfer the money via the Royal bank of canada account as i told him lately that i am being posted to canada.So i just think it will be best if i should just use the money to settle the bill for the rent and the parking of my luggages to my new location so i will have a relief over paying rents and all that again. thank you and i will be expecting from you. i have attached a copy of my british passport so that you'll know how serious i am about getting this apartment. Thanks once more. Bennett


    • Email #3: Hello John, I have booked the ticket for my flight to England already.I hope the journey will be safe as you wished. Do you use chat lines?Since you dont have a mobile number i will like to have your yahoo e-mail address or msn e-mail address so that we can chat using the yahoo messenger or msn messenger.I will love to chat with you, at least to know a couple of things about my landlord to be. I have forwarded the details of the account to my creditor and he promise to make the transfer in early days of next week and he will be transferring about $2,500CDN, One last favour that i will need from you, I have arranged with an agent here in Nigeria that will be responsible for transporting all my properties to Montreal and that will cost me about $2000.So I will appreciate it if you can cash the money when it gets into your account and deduct your $700CDN, then send the balance to the agent. I will send you his details later, before i travel. Hope your account is operating on canadian dollars because my creditor said that it is necessary that your account be operating on canadian dollars. .I look forward to meeting with you in Montreal. Thanks and get back to me.


    [edit] Billions?

    Are there any references to back the claim that billions of dollars are made annually in such scams? Seems high to me.

    [edit] email for ftc.gov

    I think the email is now: spam@uce.gov (not: uce@ftc.gov)

    [edit] Weird advice

    What's this section for? Is it an example of a spam email, or is it true and in the article as advice? I find the first point a little hard to believe.

    * It is a Federal Crime for an United States citizen to participate in an non U.S. Lottery.  
* You cannot win a Lottery that you have not entered, especially through email!
* A Legitimate Lottery would never force you to pay Advanced-Fees prior to receiving your winnings.

    -- Tarquin 11:12, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)


    Although weired, I think it is appropriate. There is other sections in this article containing advice: "It is not recommended that you attempt to get your money back" etc. This perhaps is a departure from the wikipedia:NPOV rule, but unless there is some way of providing an OBVIOUS link to an external source for authoritative advice, I think an exception should be made in this case.

    [edit] Spoiler alert

    While I find the "Spoiler alert" funny, I think it has no place in this article; this isn't about a movie or a book. Any objections to me removing it? -- Yoghurt 14:31, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Recent merge

    419 guestbook spam was recently merged with this article. Now it's under the section "419 guestbook spamming." -- Stevey7788 22:59, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    (This comment restored by me after being accidentally erased) DanielCristofani 21:16, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Humor

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Al_Bahah_Province&oldid=14579969 - these people can find you anywhere... but *shhh* like she says, keep it confidential gren 12:02, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Factual contradiction ... or inconsistency at least

    Factual contradiction ... or inconsistency at least

    From the article Advance fee fraud :

    This type of scam, originally known as the "Spanish Prisoner Letter", has been carried out since at least the 16th century via ordinary postal mail.

    From the article Spanish Prisoner :

    The Spanish Prisoner is a confidence game dating back to at least the 17th century.

    Ok so given the word "at least" the two statements are not actually contradictory. However, we may want to do a little more digging and decide which date should go in both articles.

    I have posted this comment on both talk pages. Dalf | Talk 20:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    I have added more information on the Spanish Prisoner page. This page is correct as it is 1588 i.e. 16th Century.--NHSavage 08:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
    There is a reference to a Spanish Civil War prisoner scam in The Times (I was looking up something else on the microfilm so don't have more details). Jackiespeel 16:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] How much has been netted by scammers?

    The article needs a dollar amount reference, imho. Apparently the article ref to billions lost has been deleted, and there is no mention I can see of an amount estimate. I recall reading a year or so ago at one point the scam income was in the top 3 re Nigerian GDP income figures.

    [edit] audio file

    I saw a link to a guy who had read out one of these letters in a sort of shakespearean voice - it was hillarious, do you know where that might be, I have a feeling this article used to link to it... Trollderella 15:50, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


    [edit] Translations?

    I recently had some 419 scammers impersonate addresses from my company, which does non-profit work in developing countries. I found out about it when we started getting responses back to the nonexistant addresses at our domain.

    I sent back quick notes to everyone that got tricked into believing the 419 emails either were or might be legit (amazing to me how many folks were looking to proceed. wonder how many did..). I referred them to the Wikipedia articles in English, French and German for background.

    I found myself wishing for one in Burmese/Myanmar. There's barely a Burmese Wikipedia, so I didn't even bother trying to post a request for one there, but it got me thinking.

    It seems that as Wikipedia comes online in places that are "coming online" so to speak in the more general sense, there might be opportunity for the Wikipedia community to facilitate that transition.

    Somehow prioritizing translation of (and perhaps promotion somehow though that could flirt perhaps closer to social activism than might be desirable by the community depending on how done, perhaps) of articles like this 419 article might be a good thing in that direction. There might already be suggested lists of articles to prioritize at the start of a wiki, but stuff like that. Maybe be able to tap the Wikipedians pocketbooks for little projects like hiring translators to translate some things to other Wikipedias? I know translators are always looking to pick up a few freelance bucks. Wonder if there's roome to seed development in that direction somehow.

    Anyhoo, just musing here a bit.

    -Pfwebadmin 21:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Victims, not only in rich countries

    Internet advance fee fraudsters don't target exclusively "investors from richer countries". Victims from not so rich countries are constantly reported and some scammers specifically target people from Latin America, India, Central and South East Asia or Middle East, where general public is less aware of their tricks. Some email spiders have features that allow harvesting email addresses linked to specific locations (e.g. from url's containing ".com.in" and so on).

    --Filius Rosadis 22:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Needs citations and specific numbers

    This article unfortunately needs to be run through the style guideline Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms. "Some" travelers are held for ransom, "some" people meet fake government officials ... much of the supposed data on this scam needs to be verified. There's no need for us to exaggerate in order to caution the public. Tempshill 23:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Why is it 419?

    This page needs some sort of an explanation as to why the number 419 is used to refer to these scams. --Cyde Weys votetalk 17:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

    It's called 419 because that is the number that is used in Nigeria's criminal code to describe this sort of crime and explains the penalty for it. The code states that they can only be charged if there is evidence against the individual, or if they're caught comitting it. In Nigeria, the penalty is 3-7 years for this sort of crime. I believe the article has a link to Nigeria's criminal code in it. PRueda29 / Ptalk29 / Pcontribs29 19:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

    I added a sentence based from what you said. —Quarl (talk) 2006-01-16 07:37Z

    In Nigerian pidgin English (a commonly spoken, English-like language in Nigeria) "419" is also used as "cheating" in normal sentences. You can use it in sentences like "You no go 419 me-o" (don't cheat on me). "Dat man na bigbig 419" (that man can not be trusted).

    419 is pronounced as "four-one-nine".

    [edit] Proposed split

    We need to split the check fraud and lottery fraud out of this article, as they aren't relevant. Stifle 01:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

    Both of those frauds are "advance fee" fraud - you are conned into paying an "advance fee" of some sort, expecting to get goods or money in return.
    82.46.76.125 11:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


    Both are also spread by the same scam organizations that do all the other advance fee frauds. Splitting it up will also give the ilusion that there are diffrent perpetrators behind an advance fee fraud and the lottery and check fraud which is not the case.

    If this article was cleaned up and pruned there would be no need for a split. Removal of unsourced nonsense, the lenghty "example", and other things that have nothing to do with the subject of this article would go a long way. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

    Agreed. The article hangs together pretty well as it is, and lumping all these scammers together, since they really are the same people using the same methods, makes sense to me. I don't think it's too long and could easily be cleaned up a bit (as I've begun) without rambling. Steve Rapaport 08:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Example scam letter

    Should be moved to wikisource. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

    We now have far too many example scam letters, and I guess Wikisource would be a better place for most of them. Plus, some of the letters have had spellings corrected by bots. which is not appropriate. Pontificake 23:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Very inaccurate article

    1. Many statements in the article are here-say, cannot be verified and are in fact false. The second paragraph is false since there are many countries missing from that list especially the USA. Also, the allusion that it only occurs in areas "with large West African populations" is spurious. It is racially biased and unfair. I personally have been scamed by people who were not from West Africa.

    2. The Link in the subtopic: "Invitation to visit the country" is slightly out of context, since the person was not smuggled into South Africa.

    3. The "credit Card" subtopic should be revised since this is just plain old credit card fraud rearing it's ugly head.

    4. The "Romance angle" subtopic is more relevant to the verifiable "russian bride" scam that is all over the internet and this should be clarified.

    5. "Auction overpayment": Should this even be here at all? Simple bank fraud.

    6. "Classified advert scams": How is this different from the bank fraud of Auction overpayment?

    7. "Monetary Loss estimate": The link (i.e. #5) attached to the highly speculatory second paragraph does not justify the sentence. May I add from my experience that it is not as successful as the public thinks it is. it just looks that way because of the low cost of scamming and the dedication the scammers put in- a behaviour similar to the "gambler's addiction" -As described by gambler who rarely wins, but when he wins causes a lot of commotion and arouses a new dedicated army of believers that their jackpot is next.

    8. The "physical harm or death" lends credence to fraudulent activity evident in the USA, and as stated, citations ae needed.

    9. The "Terms" subtopic: Please can the relevance of this be explained?

    I hear from a lot of folks who argue that advance fee fraud should be described without any reference to Nigeria or Africa, because specifying those locations is "racist".
    But the fact is that the 419 letters really are the product of a fraud subculture based in Lagos, Nigeria.
    Yes, of course there are all kinds of fraudsters and scammers in every country in the world. But it is the Lagosians (and some expatriates) who are flooding our inboxes with their dishonest and attention-demanding letters. I get thousands of scam letters per year directed to my personal inbox alone, directly from the scammers.
    You'd think that the Miriam Abacha or Nigerian National Petroleum stories would have played out by now, but even today, roughly half the scam letters SAY they are from Nigeria. The format and the names and the stories and the methodology are so numbingly repetitive, and the world has been so saturated with them, that it's hard to imagine a separate set of scammers in, say, Indonesia or Wales deciding that it's worthwhile to imitate these peculiar messages down to the details.
    The defenders of Nigeria's honor say that I'm ignoring all the other kinds of fraud in the world. But I'm not interested in fraud as such. I'm interested in spam. In this case, one specific group of fraudsters, from one specific city, is generating a stunning quantity of spam. Kestenbaum 01:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
    I think the problem here is that the article describes advance fee fraud as if it encompases 419 (which it does), but then goes ahead to say that it is done by west africans only in certain places. To answer you directly, (First paragraph:) Some Nigerians are actively involved in 419 scams and describing this cannot be racist! What is racist is trying to make it seem that ONLY Nigerians do all frauds listed there. Second paragraph: Have you ever been to Lagos or read a citable unbiased reference to this? What do you mean by subculture? I don't this is verifiable but prejudiced. Third paragraph: Perfectly true, but that is mainly email scams (they are almost exclusive in email scams) not the other types of Advanced fee fraud. Also, this alone is not enough to justify paragraph two or be completely prejudiced to the whole Nation concerning fraud. Paragraph four: As for the types of letters, I do agree on content and style but I can't agree with you concerning indonesians unless it is verifiable. Paragraph five: I am not a defender of Nigeria. In fact, I was defrauded by a Lagosian. I'm just against dishonesty, unfairness and exaggerations.
    You say "they are almost exclusive in email scams" -- that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't especially care about "other" (non-email) kinds of advance fee fraud, or any other kind of fraud. I think people come to this Wikipedia article to find some explanation for the emails that are flooding their inboxes.
    I haven't been to Lagos, but I have been studying these emails and reading analysis of them (including law enforcement, security, international sources) for years. My mention of Indonesia was intended as a joke. Kestenbaum 14:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
    Racism accusations are completely out of place here. In the modern world accusing someone of "racism" has become a fashion and a really cheap tool for discrediting. Saying that *Nigerians* perform these scams is not racism. Racism is not related to nationality but to ethnicity. Saying "Nigerian" is not singling out some ethnical group, it's singling out a nationality. You can say that it's unfair towards the country of Nigeria and its inhabitants, but that's different from racism, which is prejudice based on ethnicity/race and has nothing to do with nationality. Nowadays the "racism card" is a really cheap trick for getting points in a discussion. It's a childish gimmick, and we should be above that. Wopr 02:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

    The article is very accurate and very fair. At one point in time, I was told in a face-to-face meeting in Nigeria, with an Interpol Agent, that these types of scams were the third largest export in the country. And this was in 1994!! I have been to Nigeria, as I mention elsewhere, and I assure you that the scams are so prevalent that they can be found in almost every segment of society. At one point, I was targeted because of my actitivites to expose these scams that I actually had several Nigerian soldiers guarding me durng the day. Later, when I get back to the U.S., I started one of the first Nigerian scam websites and received emails everyday from people all over the world thanking me for my website and saving their lives and their money.

    So, let's be clear, this article is indeed saving lives and money. And the scammers hate Wikipedia for doing it. You know when you've done something right because that's when scammers will try and delete an article or aim vandalism at it. Jtpaladin 18:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Government reporting

    Warnings issued by United States government: The United States Federal Trade Commission has issued a consumer alert about the Nigerian scam. It says: "If you receive an offer via email from someone claiming to need your help getting money out of Nigeria — or any other country, for that matter — forward it to the FTC at spam@uce.gov." The United States Department of the Treasury advises: "You may also email the 419er documents, especially any banking data they may have given you, marked as described above, to Task Force Main in DC 419.fcd@usss.treas.gov; that is also acceptable."
    I wonder if this ought to be removed unless there is evidence the FTC or Treasury department is actually doing anything with the reports. From what I've seen they haven't done anything useful with the reports since 5-10 years ago when they started asking for them. -Rolypolyman 19:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] The Check Scam is Advance Fee Fraud

    The title of this article is advance fee fraud. According to the classifications used by most Internet crime investigators including the FBI and the antiphishing working group the check scam is an advance fee fraud even though it is not a 419 scam or nigerian letter.

    The current article is too Internet centric in any case, an advance fee fraud is a very general category. The encyclopedia should not be biased towards the categories that the editors are most familiar with. There is even a non-Internet version of the fraud done as an in person confidence trick where a person on a beach 'finds' a wallet stuffed with money.

    If the article is going to go into the Nigerian gangs it should also include details of the 'wish wash' scam that is usually played if the Mugu actually goes to Nigeria. This again is an advance fee fraud.

    Finaly Phill Hallam-Baker has speculated that the current crop of nigerian letters are the result of the original gangs selling 'franchises' for the fraud to gullible people thinking they will make a fortune. In effect running the same advance fee fraud against their franchisees that the franchisees hope to play on others. --Gorgonzilla 14:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Removing unsourced statement

    Another effect of the scam's proliferation is that ordinary Nigerians are having their access to the internet hindered. One reporter in Nigeria sent this in an email to his producers in late 2005: [citation needed] "Connecting a lap top in a cybercafe [in Nigeria] is a nightmare. Because of the 419 scam, cybercafe operators are reluctant to connect peoples lap tops. The few who do have to make some settings to your lap top and most often it would not work."

    I've searched for various combinations of this quote and keywords, and nothing has come up to indicate it has been published elsewhere (online). If another source is available for this, please cite it. --Marysunshine 21:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Propsed reorg

    This article is a mess because it is writtend as if 419 fraud is synonymous wth advance fee fraud. In fact the nigerian letters are only one example of a very old scam. The FBI used thye term advance fee fraud before there was an internet. The article should be rewritten accordingly. It should also link to sites describing the wish-wash and other examples. -- Gorgonzilla 23:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

    The article is really about Nigerian money transfer fraud. Perhaps Advance fee fraud should redirect to confidence game (or one of the other articles like Spanish Prisoner), and this article be renamed Online advanced fee fraud or the like? But perhaps "Advance fee fraud" deserves a separate article spun off from this one... it's quite a mess. Well.. be bold :) —Pengo 23:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
    I don't think splitting would be useful. Advance fee fraud is the superset. The nigerian letter is merely the best known current example, the cashiers check schemes are essentially the same game, as is the wish-wash in which the mark is given a suitcase full of money covered in a dye and told that the removal agent is costly to get hold of. It is the same people behind those scams. Meanwhile there are gangs all over the world doing the 419 scam. --Gorgonzilla 03:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
    This article is VERY long ( althrough removing the example letters would help ) and Internet fraud is probably more important to the average person today than 17th century Spanish prisoners. A split might be warrented. FireWeed 19:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Counterfeit check image

    Somone replaced the counterfeit check image with this one that has "FAKE" repeated across it. That doesn't make sense to me, because:

    • The original image is still there, and not linking to it is hardly a secure way of keeping it from scammers.
    • If the original were removed, we couldn't delete every copy that has been distributed even if we had the legal authority--which we don't because the image has already been distributed under the GFDL.
    • There's nothing stopping an unscrupulous person from getting a cashier's check and scanning it, so removing this one doesn't make scamming much harder.
    • The new image is much less readable, defeating the purpose of having one at all.
    • The original image already has some of the personal information blacked out.

    Wmahan. 06:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

    I restored the original image again. If you really think it risks enabling scammers, I think the appropriate step would be to list commons:Image:Well's fargo counterfit cashier's check.jpg for deletion. Changing the image here won't make it unavailable. Wmahan. 01:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Let's don't panic

    I have been in Nigeria many times and have to say that even though I have seen myself 419 fraud and crime, my perception of Nigerians was generally positive. They are intelligent and creative people and most of them are very hard working and honest. I felt safer in Nigeria then i do in most US metropolitan areas. Vigilance is good but lets put it all in perspective, we are being ripped off in our home countries, by our home grown criminals, by far more often then by Nigerians.--Mike Sorensen 14:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] 255 ip addresses per all of niger?

    According to [1], Niger only has 255 IP addresses assigned to it. Makes one wonder if a majority of so-called Nigerian money scams do not, in fact, come from Niger. I mean, for some reason, I doubt that all such scams come from the same 255 IP addresses... TerraFrost 18:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

    Niger is not the same as Nigeria. The latter must have much more IP addresses assigned. However you're right about scam-spam coming from other countries, like the rest of West Africa (Ghana, Togo, Benin), South Africa and places like Amsterdam, London, Dubai, Madrid. --Filius Rosadis 18:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Mary Winkler

    Mary Winkler has not been found guilty of any crime yet (in relation to the shooting of her husband, connected with a 419 scam), as such the text has been changed to reflect that she has yet to stand trial in a court of law. Doctorbob 17:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Scam-o-rama reference

    This book was added to the list of books by Scamorama (talk • contribs). I have removed it as a possible violation of WP:COI:

    • "'Scam-o-rama' by Eve Edelson, published by the Disinformation Company. Ms Edelson is the curator of the 'Scamorama.com' web site. The emphasis there and in the book is on the amusing, as some folks retaliate against the scammers. Quite a lot of it is hilarious. ISBN 1932857389"

    --A. B. (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

    I think this quote is far too short to be a copyright infringement, especially seeing as how it doesn't give away the most saleable parts of the book. ( Gerald Ford was able to sue a newspaper for copyright infringement for publishing a small excerpt of his book, because it was the part explaining why her pardoned Richard Nixon - the reason most people would buy the book. ) I don't see any reason this could be a problem, although it should be noted I'm not an attorney, just an interested individual. FireWeed 19:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Spanish Prisoner Scam? Does anyone have a source for that?

    I would be very curious to learn more about this 1588 "spanish prisoner letter." Just because it's a great story. --Crestodina 00:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


    See my comment above. Jackiespeel 16:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Proposed Legislation section cut

    Most of this material seems to be simply a cut and paste job of very long press releases which lacks any sort of cohesion. Normally, I would cut and paste things I cut to the talk page, but due to the length I am going to simply cut it and if anyone wants to retrieve it they can do so by going into the history tab.


    [edit] Effectiveness of the scam

    How effective is this category of scam now? (Likewise "Dear (XYX Bank) Customer, Please send/confirm your details" letters and several others.)

    Does the Law of Diminishing Returns apply - and if so how?

    Jackiespeel 16:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] yet another one?

    Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:39:44 -0700 From: "Barr. Anthony Floyd" <Floydsolicitor_chambers@yahoo.co.uk> To: Subject: SEEKING FOR YOUR SINCERE ASSISTANCE From Barr. Anthony Floyd, Solicitor Chamber Palm building, Palm ave, 7th floor London ,UK. Date: 5th March, 2007.

    Good day,
I am the above named person and i own the above chamber in london, UK. This mail is regarding

    my pass experence with the UK Government and the Law guiding the Banking system here in uk. I once had a client by the name Mr. Sayed .A. Mohammed, he was a South Korea Business Consultant, whom was in United kingdom for some years on a business trip and i was his lawyer for seven years, he had done and sealed alot of transaction with several Firm's here in UK.

    Mr Sayed A Mohammed died few year ago when he visited his country, before his death, Mr.

    Sayed A Mohammed deposited a large sum amount of money in a Bank, here in UK. The amount of the money deposited and the Banks name is not necessary now. To cut the story short, few years after his death i recieved a notification letter from the Bank, saying that the UK Government has given me a duration of time to get the next of Kin of Mr. Sayed to stand forward and claim his money and i was given six months to do this. I traveled to South Korea twice in search of any of his family but i couldn't find any of them, before the given time and the money was claimed by the UK Government.


    Mr. Sayed .A. Mohammed never had a WILL before his death and i tried to locate his family in

    South Korea but i couldn't. Am having similar problem at hand now, i have been given six months by the UK Government to locate any of the family of my diseased Client whom has passed away few years ago. I have tried to locate his family too but i could fine any, i have three months left from the six month given to me by the UK Government.

    I will not allow the Government lay claim to my client money again, this is the reason why am

    contacting you, i need your co-orperation and more details on this as soon as i recieved your email of interest in helping out, this is my private E-MAIL ADDRESS: Floydsolicitor_chambers@yahoo.co.uk Mobile : +44 7045 5703 03

    Best regards,
Barrister Anthony.

    —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Red E Made (talk • contribs) 05:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] I've been to Nigeria and seen it all in action

    Welcome to the world of Nigerian deception.

    As anyone who has received those scam emails about money in a bank account and that they offer you a cut of the action if you would pay some "service fees", you have to expect that scams in Nigeria extend to every area of commerce in that country.

    In fact, when "60 Minutes" did a report about scams in Nigeria, the central location from which these scams come from is a street very close to the Sheraton in Lagos. I've been to that street and in those hidden-away offices and watched the scam artists busy away at their computers.

    If you arrive in the evening, one of the first things you may see are the prostitutes standing in front of the hotel, offering their services to Western businessmen.

    You can expect a variety of incompetence from all aspects of the hotel staff. From being checked-in to maid service. The checking-in process can take hours. This is completely ridiculous when compared to checking into a hotel in the U.S. or Europe. In fact, everything in Lagos can take forever. The traffic in the city is horrible and what may take you a half hour to accomplish in the U.S., in Lagos it can take all day.

    If you choose to eat in the restaurant downstairs, you'll find that the food is rather bland. By the end of your stay, no matter where you eat, you will be dying for Western food.

    Expect to be cheated and robbed at every turn by the hotel staff. Incompetence at charging your credit card is to be expected as well. It's like these people are using credit cards for the first time in their lives.

    Nigeria is a place where bribes are expected. I pride myself as never having to pay a single bribe but you might not be so lucky and find yourself in a position that to get out of a tight spot, you have to pay a bribe. So, be sure you have enough cash to do so. This could be necessary in and outside the hotel. And, yes, many of the police officers are corrupt as well.

    The sitting area in the lobby area is much like the atmosphere in the film "Casablanca". There are all sorts of schemes and games being concocted between Nigerian scam artists and Western businessmen looking to make some fast cash. Word of advice: there are no ways to make fast cash in Nigeria and I urge you to avoid getting drawn into such conversations. I've seen the so-called "Black Money" scam. I actually had a few of those black money papers given to me, which I promptly handed over the U.S. Security Service. I also had a U.S. lab find a way to remove the black ink and discovered that the paper was merely white sheets of paper. I contacted the scammer and he assured me that it was real money and that only his special cleaning process can turn it back to U.S. currency. This is so laughable that it amazes me people can fall for it.

    The price of rooms at the Sheraton are so high because the Sheraton is close to the airport and because it is the nicest hotel in the Lagos area. But compared to Western standards, the hotel is second to third rate. One funny thing is that the room number "419" is the nicest room in the hotel because few people want to check into it since it is the criminal code in Nigerian law regarding scams!!

    On one visit, I spent 3 months at this hotel and I came to know everyone and everything about its' operations.

    Of course, there are some good things about the hotel and I would be doing the reader a disservice in not mentioning them.

    First, the security is pretty tight. And in Lagos, that's important. In a place where people have been murdered in the parking lot of the airport, you can never have enough security. And, the Sheraton has good security.

    Second, the dance club next door is very nice and you wouldn't know that you were not in the West.

    Third, in a country with malaria, the hotel is kept efficiently free of mosquitos. The entire 3 months that I was at the Sheraton, I did not get malaria even though I did not take malaria prevention medication. However, I do not recommend going to Nigeria without getting all your shots and prevention medication.

    Fourth, like most West African hotels that cater to Europeans and Americans, the pool is wonderful. The high humidity, of which in Lagos is constant, keeps the pool water at a perfect temperture. The pool is well maintained. Also, the grounds of the hotel are well maintained as are the tennis courts.

    Fifth, the hotel has its' own generators so when the city loses power, the generators maintain power in the hotel. Very important if you like to keep the A/C in your room functioning.

    As a general rule, I urge people to stay away from Nigeria for the sake of their lives. It's a dangerous place to visit. Westerners have been killed in the parking lot at the airport. But if you can get past the scam artists and murdering thieves, you'll find some very nice people in Nigeria. The further you get from crime-ridden Lagos, the better the quality of the people.

    Finally, if you must go to Nigeria, and while the Sheraton Lagos is a sub-standard hotel compared to Western hotels, it is the best place to stay while in Lagos. At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, if you must go to Nigeria, I highly recommend that before you go, you get your affairs in order and prepare a Will. Again, Lagos is a dangerous place and sadly too many Western visitors have learned that the hard way. Plus, the last thing you want to do is get arrested in Nigeria because since the courts are overloaded, the police tend to beat the Hell out of the prisoners to get them to either confess or to make sure the prisoner doesn't do it again.

    I know most of the info I posted here is of very little value to the article but I thought an overall idea of what an experience to Nigeria was like would have some value to someone who is thinking of going to Nigeria to play out the part of scamming the scammers. Jtpaladin 18:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Moved book link to correct section

    Moved link to book "The Singing Scammers" into the "Books" section with the others, noticed someone had deleted it from External Links.

    [edit] General Comments and "To Catch A Con Man"

    1. The article is in serious need of a cleanup. All of those examples letters are our of place and excessive. Unless there is some serious objections on here, I am going to go ahead and delete all those example letters. If somebody feels they should be relocated somewhere else, they should do that, but if anybody really needs to see and advance fee fraud email, they can check their own email, maybe the junk folder, or any one of a billion anti-419 sites

    I went ahead and deleted example letters...Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

    2. This talk page needs to be archived, cleaned up, SOMETHING! I am not sure of proper WP or procedure on this, but this talk page seems a congolmeration of old information and information that doesn't even belong on a talk page in the first place.

    3. I hope somebody will take more iniative to clean this article up. I know I am when I get a chance. If I came here and really wanted to know more about 419 I would be so confused.

    I went ahead and did a lot of cleanup. It needs a lot more though. I would like to see if it could be made to be internally consistent. I know 419 is the primary type of advance feee fraud, but both terms are used interchangeably. Maybe all 419 references could be changed to advance fee fraud.Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

    4. NBC did a special on Dateline NBC about AFF this week and it had a lot of useful information. I only TiVoed the first 6 minutes and missed it. If anybody saw it or knows of the information online, it would be a useful addition. The show was called "To Catch a Con Man". Butnotthehippo 06:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

    I found the link to To Catch a Con Man There is a transcript on there here if somebody wants to glean a lot of good (and Verifiable!!!) information they can go through it before I get a chance to...Butnotthehippo 06:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    I added some info and made a seperate page for the new show (To Catch a Con Man)Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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