Talk:Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs

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[edit] Any added value?

Does this article have any added value or should it be merged back into Adolf Hitler? Andries 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. No it shouldn't. Paul B 21:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haffner quote

I have observed that a quote by Sebastian Haffner has been added and removed from both this article and the main article on Hitler. My take on this is that while Haffner is a reputable writer and quite quotable, the view expressed in this quoted is based on dated scholarship, as primarly expressed in the Hitler biography by Allan Bullock. From what we know today it can now longer be upheld. The only possibility of including it would be in a footnote about "misconceptions" alongside of Hitler the occultist, or Hitler the esotericist, or Hitler the neopagan, or Hitler the Catholic. Str1977 (smile back) 13:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

okay, I will not insert the quote by Haffner again. I have to accept your remark on faith, because I don't know enough about the subject. Andries 16:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that outdated views and popular misconceptions should be treated in Wikipedia, so if you have any source that rebuts Haffner then pleas re-add Haffner and that source. Andries 07:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Andries, for your message. I agree with you and don't object to including a treatment of the miscinception, at least not here in the "main article". We already have a small reference to another misconception (occultism) and we could expand on both. Str1977 (smile back) 12:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unjustified removal of sourced material

Gio, could you please point out what "sourced material" you are talking about? Str1977 (smile back) 10:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And while you're at it, Gio, could you explain why you "blind reverted" back to a section tag when this is an article, after I had explained that the tag was wrong in my previous edit summary? And could you explain why you reverted last night while ignoring the request for clarification on the talk page - considering one of your favourite edit summaries is "do not revert. Take it to talk" or a variation of that?
Now I don't have any particularly strong feelings about whether the tag should say accuracy and POV, or just POV, and if there is consensus that no tag is needed, then I'll go along with that. But if you are putting a tag at the top of an article, you have to use an article tag, and if you're putting it just at the top of a particular section, you have to use a section tag. It's sloppy editing to revert blindly (an expression you often use about your opponents) back to a section tag for an article, when the distinction has been brought to your attention, and it strongly suggests that you're so eager to have your own version (as regards content and POV) that you don't care about ordinary basic tidiness in editing. Please try to be more careful. AnnH ♫ 08:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Format of quotations

I've done some copyediting. In particular, there was a problem that a full stop was placed before a footnote, the footnote was added, and another full stop was placed after it. A few quotations had not been closed with quotation marks, etc.

Some quotations have are enclosed in <cite> </cite> tags, which seem, according to my eye, to change them into italics but not to do anything else. I don't see any reason to have some quotations in italics and some not. Actually, I don't see any reason to have any quotations in italics. We've already had problems (in the Hitler article from which this section comes) with someome putting quotations that implied that Hitler was a fervent Christian in block quotes, and leaving the quotations that implied he was anti-Christian embedded in the text where they wouldn't look so obvious, and later saying that was done according to the length of each quotation (a claim which was refuted by a simple word count). I don't see a pattern in other articles of quotations being in italics.

I'm going to change all of the quotations to plain text (i.e. not italics). Long quotations can, of course, go in block quotes, regardless of which POV they support. Unrelated to the issue of format is the use of the word "deplored" in the last sentence. I propose changing that to "rejected". "Deplored" suggests shock and anger at the fact that this idea existed, rather than simply rejection of the idea. If I'm mistaken in this (as I don't know whether Hitler condemned the idea that Nazism was a religion, or the the idea that anyone would think it was), please change it back. AnnH ♫ 09:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

Some recent changes have messed up the structure a bit. Hence I am reverting them, trying to retain copy-edits.

I also move the following stuff over here, as it doesn't fit well where it was placed:

In the Hossbach Memorandum Hilter is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman empire[1]

Str1977 (smile back) 10:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

So, you would prefer to keep factually inaccurate material which suits your beliefs, rather than accurate material that "messes up the structure a bit"? O tempora o mores. I will attempt to integrate accuracy and flow. Paul B 21:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger?

Gentlemen, please try and keep a cool head! This is not about what content is the "correct" content. This is merely a discussion about where the content should be located. If we want it as a separate page, then we should summarize and let it be a separate page, and we can discuss and NPOV it there. If not, we should change that page to a redirect and keep the content on the Hitler page. Personally, I think the Hitler article is getting a bit long, so I think we should have the separate article, at least for now. That way, the discussion you two are having can be focused on a talk page specifically designed for it, and other Hitler issues can be discussed on the main talk page. Themillofkeytone 17:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mill, thanks for your message. Sure, I agree with you. For me, the issue was merely that you thought the merger accomplished and removed the tags. You were right at that moment, but when the content of the Hitler article was changed, this changed. I also agree about cutting the section in the Hitler article while giving a comprehensive treatment in the Religious Views article. Str1977 (smile back) 08:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I oppose a merger because Hitler's religious beliefs were a side-issue in his life. Only a short summary of this article should appear in in the article Adolf Hitler. In contrast Adolf Hitler's military leadership, anti-semitism, youth private life, political views, and speeches are not side issues. Andries 07:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't have particularly strong feelings about it, but I think it's probably better to have a short section in the main article and to refer readers to this article. For one thing, that section in the main article has been the subject of a lot of edit warring, with one editor in particular determined to portray Hitler as a devout Catholic (even adding the completely POV, completely OR and completely unverified claim that Hitler, as a child, received the sacraments "devoutly"). That would be one reason not to have the long section in the main article, as an edit war over a widely-read article is worse than one over a fork. (Ideally, of course, there shouldn't be edit wars at all.) Also, there were complaints at the main article talk page that the section on his religious beliefs was longer than the parts devoted to the Holocaust. So my feeling would be that we should keep it here. (That said, I've just reverted a drive-by removal of the section from the main article by an anon who had been disrupting talk pages. Or, to be more accurate, I restored this version, as we seem to be getting some kind of consensus now. AnnH ♫ 07:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is superflous and should be merged back with [Adolf Hitler]. Having it as a sperate article is useful given the level of controversy and editing surrouding the topic. However once a version had can be agreed upon is reached - it should be merged back.

[edit] settlement, changes

This version is not bad. I made some minor tweaks with the main change being to this part, which I'd like to see the exact wording that states such a of fact in these strong terms: "After he had left home, he completely stopped attending mass." Instead I wrote in: "After he had left home, he did not regularly mass, and my have stopped altogether." [3] I believe the latter is more in keeping with what the source actually reports, but I welcome you to quote the author and lets see what he actually says so as to support our wording on this point. The other things I removed was the little lecture on the Catholic church's requirements for attending mass on holidays, etc. This is off topic and its pushing a POV for the reader. If the reader wants to know about the requirements according to the Catholic church, they can find out. This article should talk only about Hitlers religous views and his practices--not what the Catholic church says aobut its own requirements for being a good practicing Catholic. With the minor changes I've made, I removed the dipute POV tag. I also made some minor language improvements, which you can review. Overall the article is not bad, and the integration of the MK quotes is good. Until I comprare it and re-read the other version I'm not sure which one is better, yet.Giovanni33 05:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Gio, I am glad to view a new, positive approach. However, I still had to do some tweaks on your last edits:

  • The change you explained above about attending mass goes too far. The former version better reflects what the sources tell us, that Hitler stopped attending Mass (or other sacraments) - there is evidence for that, there is no evidence countering that, and it fits well with his overall attitude during his entire adult life. Your version introduced doubt where there is no reasonable doubt.
  • I don't mind cutting down the longish explanation of the Church's requirements (put there originally because of Drogo's objections) but I think a minimum should be retained.
  • I reverted your inclusion of "alleged" in the private statements passage - the statements are not "alleged": though some individual quotes might be disputed, the overall package is not (or are you saying that Hitler had no private conversations in his life time?)- what might be disputed is the conclusions drawn from that, which is what the sentence says. Putting in "alleged" next to "disputed" is really overdoing it in one (your) direction.

The rest seems allright at first glance. Str1977 (smile back) 12:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I noticed there are several missing quotes and thoughts from this version when compared to the other version. I'd like to see those sourced comments from those historians given a voice in the article, and yes, that does include their own speculation, and Todland's statment on the subject.Giovanni33 07:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


Giovanni, in removing the reference to the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "practising", you completely messed up the footnotes. You have to close the tags with </ref>. I have not restored the OED definition, as the article no longer uses the word "practising", so there is no need to justify the use of the word. (Actually, there never was any need, as we were using it according to the standard, traditional meaning, unlikely to be disputed by anyone other than those who had an agenda of portraying Hitler as devout and practising.) However, I have restored the reference to Church law, which is based on fact, and is certainly not pushing a POV. Obviously, if you want to portray Hitler's life and actions as being in somre way compatible with Christianity, you won't want the reader to know that he lived in violation of Church law, but suppressing that is simply pushing your POV (like inserting a claim that he received the sacraments "devoutly"). If we have an article devoted to Hitler's religious beliefs, and we mention the fact that he did not attend Mass or receive the sacraments after he left home, we at least owe it to the reader to inform him that this was in violation of the laws of the Church that Hitler had been baptized into. After all, many Protestant religions do not require Church attendance every Sunday, so you could be a "good" Protestant and stay at home on many Sundays, but still pray and read the Bible. Therefore, it's necessary to inform the reader that this does not apply to Catholics. I know many lapsed Catholics who are delightful people, and whom I respect a lot; but they are not living a life consistent with the laws of the Church. Nor do they pretend to be — like Hitler, they disagree with what the Church says. AnnH ♫ 08:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I have no problem with that in the footnotes. I just don't think it should be in the main article since this is about Hitler's religious beliefs, not Catholic laws of the Church--unless we have a source that makes this point about Hitler. If readers want to know about how Catholic church law, I'd hope there is an article that covers the subject. Hitler's religious beliefs are Hitler's religious beliefs and they are complicated. Lets keep the article space on that subject, and notes about the fact that his practices entailed violations of Church law, the the footnote, if you feel its important. I don't wish to portray Hitler in any other way than to give a full picture of all that is known based on reputable sources. I do not believe in pushing a POV, only NPOV. I understand this is a touchy subject as modern Christianity is rightfully embarrassed by Hitler being a Christian and Christianity being compatible with fascism and Nazism, so I understand the emotional needs on the part of some editors close to the subjects. Also, to the extend that Hitler did not follow Church law, this should also be sourced, based on what the sources actually say on the matter. I know Str cited a source before, but I recall Drogo looking up that source and showing it was not quite what Str extrapolated from it. We should be careful abide by verification and not engage in any kind of complicated inferences which can boarder on original research and POV pushing. Also, isn't saying "absolute minimum" redundant? A minimum already sets the low limit, its minimum. What does "absolute" add to this? Giovanni33 08:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler, the Nazi Party and Atheism

"Hitler was virulently opposed to state atheism (anti-religiosity) of the Soviet Union, but he also desired a religiously neutral state system, at least during the years of his dictatorship.[2] Nevertheless within his Nazi Party some atheists were quite vocal. Especially Baldur von Schirach, Arthur Axmann and Martin Bormann were known as atheists, even though von Schirach during the Nuremberg Trials declared himself to have never been one, while admitting to his, allegedly private, aversion from Christian Churches. Bormann once was even criticized by Joseph Goebbels for his constant attacks against the pro-Nazi Evangelical Lutheran Churches of Germany, a thing which Goebbels considered inopportune and even dangerous during the war.[3] From Hitler's toleration of declared atheists within his party, can be concluded, that Hitler in the public realm accepted different religious opinions, ranging from atheist to Islamic, as long as those adhering to these different creeds would support the regime."

I move this to talk as it is mostly not about Hitler's religius views. It also contains obscure wordings like "opposed to state atheism (anti-religiosity of the Soviet Union", when the facts are that he was opposed to Marxism (which including atheism). Str1977 (smile back) 07:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I will reinsert it with other wording. It is relevant, as Hitler was the Nazi Party and the Nazi Party was Hitler. There is no need to delete it. Hitler was opposed to the principle of state atheism, but not to private atheists. That is important to note.Smith2006 19:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Smith, maybe you could care to offer at least a single argument? I see none, except that the Nazi Party was Hitler, which is not the case. The one was a political group and the other was a man. A man can have religious views, a party cannot. Str1977 (smile back) 06:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hitler was the party and vice-versa. Hitler controlled his party totally until April, 1945. The way in which he handled religion or atheism within the party, tell us important things and nuances about his personal spirituality and opinion on religion. That is why it fits into the article totally. I will re-insert it. Please explain first, why you think it does NOT say anything about Hitler personally. I think it does. I have not described the Nazi Party, but the way in which Hitler and his followers treated e.g. atheism.Smith2006 10:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Smith,
No, Hitler was not the party (no matter that Rudolf Hess said that in "Triumph of the Will", but he also equated Hitler and Germany), though he was in control.
If you think it relevant than strip it down to what is relevant to our topic which is Hitler the man and his beliefs.
To call Hitler a pluralist (whatever that means) of any sort is definitely contrafactual. Str1977 (smile back) 19:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Smith, I think what Str1977 is trying to suggest by his edits to this article is that Hitler was personally much more anti-religious than the policies of the Nazi party would lead you to believe, but that Hitler-and-friends felt they had to appease the religious sentiments of the public to rise to power. His speeches are reliable sources, but may differ from his private beliefs (though private sources sometimes conflict and are hard to verify). I can't say whether Str1977's characterisation of Hilter is both accurate and complete. But the person/party distinction is informative and I think he's right to separate the two, or at least to not confuse them. -Andrew Delong 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious Links

The issue of links has been discussed extensively on the main Adolf Hitler page. The three links I've removed all fail to meet the Wikipedia guidelines for reliable sources Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. The issues discussed in the websites in question are covered in more reliable way in Steigmann-Gall's book, for example. Bytwerk 12:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Albert Speer

I removed Albert Speers quote from the "private statements" section as it appeared to be speer expressing his personal distaste of Christianity and is irrelevant to an article on Hitler's religious beliefs.

I have restored it. Speer was reporting what Hitler said to him, or at least what he claims Hitler said. Paul B 16:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where can these quotes fit in?

From http://www.runestone.org/lep4.html

  • "It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan [father of the gods in the German lore]. Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund." - Hitler's Table Talk, page 61
  • "The characteristic thing about these people [modern-day followers of the early Germanic religion] is that they rave about the old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack." - Chapter 12 of Mein Kampf

Please see a lot more here: http://www.runestone.org/lep4.html as this is important information. A LOT more information can be found at the Wikipedia project 'Germanic Mysticism, Revivalism and Nazism' Hope this is of some help. FK0071a 17:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Section: Hitler and Christianity's future

The below section I removed. It stands out from the rest of the article in that its speculations stated as facts, and non-attributed. This might be the opinion of a scholar, but it is by no means an accepted fact or consensus among others. Therefore, if it is to be included it must be properly done, ie. "according to...' and then state his theory. Also, the scholar who presents this must be reputable and this POV must be a significant one. I'd like to see the sources in English and the credencials of the author, and quotes about exactlly what he says, as well as what others in the field have to say about him and these speculations. Finally, they must be stated with the proper neutral, encylopedic language. The way its done below, reads as if its an established and authoritative account of the plans Hitler had all mapped out, and does so in the language of a polemic, a debate, i.e. 'and even the smallest influence of the Catholic..." This is not appropriate language and stands out in stark contrast to the tone of the rest of the article. As for its claims, unfortunately, the record is not at all so clear.Giovanni33 01:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Hitler already had plans for the Roman Catholic Church, according to which the church was supposed to "eat from the hands of the government." As a first step Hitler wanted to force German Catholics to abolish priestly celibacy and accept a nationalisation of all church property, as had happened in France in 1905. After the "Final Victory" of National Socialism, all monastic orders and religious congregations were to be dissolved, and even the smallest influence of the Catholic Church upon education of children was to be forbidden. Hitler proposed to reduce vocations to the priesthood by forbidding seminaries from receiving applicants before their 25th birthdays, hoping that these men would marry beforehand, during the time (18 - 25 years) in which they were obliged to work in military or labour service. Along with this process, the Church's sacraments would have to be revised and changed to so-called "Lebensfeiern", non-Christian celebrations of different periods of life.

The aim was slowly to dismantle the institutions of the Catholic Church and fit the institution itself into a new National Socialist German state religion, because Hitler still firmly believed, that religion and belief in God was something "the simple people need." But since the "laws of evolution" - upon which a new religion would have to be founded - were not yet precisely researched, according to Hitler, it was decided to keep these changes and laws on hold, pending the final victory.[4] Hitler and Goebbels also recognised that such changes might create a third front of Catholics against their regime in Germany itself. Nevertheless in his diary Goebbels openly wrote about the "traitors of the Black International who again stabbed our glorious government in the back by their criticism", by which he meant the indirectly or actively resisting Catholic clergymen (who wore black cassocks).

I don t care you do not know Dr. Huerten and other German historians. The statements are sourced and sources can be checked. Replaced them. Whoever removes them again (they are referenced!) will be reported to wikipedia moderators.Smith2006 20:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Given your own statements pro-Communism, I conclude you want to throw National Socialists (including Hitler) and „reactionaries” (e.g. Catholic Church) upon one hill of dung, but that cannot be tolerated here. These sections were proven by quotations.Smith2006 20:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Giovanni33 is vandalizing the article by removing sourced statements by German historians on Hitler and his plans for the Catholic Church after the Endsieg. He repeats these statements are unsourced, in fact references have been provided, including pages etc. etc. That he refuses to acknowledge these statements are made by professors from universities, does not make them worthless. Please watch that these sections are kept in the article. Communist re-editing of articles cannot be tolerated, neither can Nazi, Neonazi, or ultraliberal statements be tolerated. But historians must be quoted, not deleted just because some user does not like their conclusions.Smith2006 21:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the only editor who is removing your these additions that you are pasting here and elsewhere. For example: 14:55, 23 January 2007 Andrew Delong (Talk | contribs) (rv original research -- doesn't follow that he had "no attachment"; overly strong and speculative statement). Besides being original research, which is not allowed, one is presenting pov's as undisputed facts, which is also not allowed. For example, you keep adding in:"Despite the unclear position of Hitler's public speeches on religion, it may be concluded from his self-chosen suicide, that he had no attachment to Roman Catholic, and general Christian, teachings on morality which forbid suicide in all cases," Notice that you are jumping to a conclusion for the reader when you say, "it may be concluded from his..."This is creating a synthesis and pushing a POV. Its not an uncontested fact. Also, we have the problem of undue weight from this minority views. The view is presented as if it were the only view and given full weight when this pov does not reflect consensus on the question. The other big problem is that it does not use neutral language, as explained above. You can never present a speculative theory, even if it is from a legitimate source as a fact, nor can you include a source's POV as representing the truth in the matter unless it clearly is the consensus among historians in the academy. Surely, if this is the case, you can find other sources to collaborate these claims, or even quote exactly what this author says, and prove his qualifications to speak so authoritatively on the matter? A google search does not yeild anything. We only want the best scholars/historians in the field to represent their work, unless this is an article on the scholar in question--then we can focus on his POV/theories, but with proper qualification. Also, don't forget this has to do with Hitler's personal belief system, not the plans the Nazi's may have had. Lastly, please review Civil, as you are violating it here with your red-baiting and calling my edits vandalism. Your talking about who can be tolerated and not (ultraliberal? hehe), is your own view but they are not policy here. Infact, you can be blocked for these violations.Giovanni33 22:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fuhrerbunker art/Murals

Codex, I find your edit-warring and paranoid edit-summaries to be deeply unhelpful. If you know anything about the history of art you will know that Greco-Roman pagan imagery was extremely common in palace decoration since the Renaissance. Go to Versailles and you would get the impression that Louis XIV worshipped Apollo rather than Jesus. By the nineteenth century it was increasingly common to replace generic "classical" pagan imagery with nationalistic imagery. There are numerous 19th century German palaces that contain imagery derived from Germanic myth. The palaces of Ludwig II of Bavaria are a well-known example. They have almost no value as evidence concerning anyone's religious beliefs. Since no-one actually thinks that Hitler believed in the existence Valkyries the argument in this paragraph is really rather absurd. Paul B 13:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"Paranoid" is just another of your unsubstantiated POVs, since I am not paranoid of anything. I just don't like seeing evidence suppressed because it's so obvious you don't want to bring attention to this. (and they aren't MURALS, that is a totally misleading header for this conversation, they are fully GRAVEN images). Contradicting what you said, there was massive speculation during his early years that he did indeed take the Germanic mythology seriously. I should probably add these quotes as cited references. Whenever you try to quietly take attention away from something, those tactics usually backfire on wikipedia, because the more you persist, the more I will bring it TO the attention of more editors and readers to get some more opinions, probably the exact opposite of what you wanted. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't want it here because I think it is a silly and irrelevant argument that weakens the article. Whether they are murals, or sculptures or easel paintings is irrelevant (I have seen reproductions of some murals that were in the Fuhrerbunker). By all means bring it to the attention of as many editors as you want. And no, it is well known that Hitler did not take Germanic mythology seriously, unlike some other Nazis. He repeatedly ridiculed the believers in "Odinism". Paintings of Wagnerian subjects and Germanic myth were commonplace from the 19th century on. There are "fully GRAVEN images" of cupids in buildings all over Europe. Does that mean their makers were all neo-pagans. Paul B 13:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If you have some information about Hitler ridiculing Odinism, that should definitely be added to the article, preferably a firstahnd quote from him. I have several quotes from others who were his contemporaries who thought he believed in it, I say bring it all on. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
It's in Mein Kampf and in virtually every serious book on Hitler you can find. Yes, there are numerous worthless "Occult Nazi" books of pop-history, but serious scholars don't given them the time of day. It's also worth adding that this section is completely unreferenced. You know - William Ewart Gladstone had a sculpture of himself with a relief (graven image!) of Athena on the bottom of it.[1] It would be absurd to put that in his article and use it as evidence that he was a Pagan. I know that Fundamentalist Christians love the idea that Hitler was a secret occult-loving worshipper of demonic forces, but the truth is far far more complex than that. Paul B 14:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, it must be complex, because the quote from Mein Kampf actually given in the article does not support what you say, but supports what I say. You have dismissed my sources as "Occult Nazi" books without even knowing what they are, so stay tuned and I will be back with more quite soon. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
What sources? The reference to Mein Kampf in the article actually states that it was necessary for Christianity to replace Paganism, a statement Hitler also makes elsewhere. His other comments about Islam and Japanese culture clearly indicate that he had no actual "theology", but looked at choosing religions in the way you might look at choosing suits. Here are some of the relevant quotations. This webite is biassed against Christianity, but the quotations are accurate.[2]. Here is Elst, the pro-Hindutva writer, on the subject [3]. The problem with online material on this is that it's not very reliable. Many authors are just concerned with point scoring for or against particular beliefs by using Hitler, others are just sensationalistic stuff for lovers of "secret occult forces" etc etc. The best recent book is Steigmann-Gall's. Paul B 14:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I think I've waited long enough for these sources. Let's summarise:
1. No source is given for these claims about the presence of "numerous motifs from Germanic mythology, such as ornately carved Valkyries", nor can I find any. There are several photographs of Hitler's various offices and private residences. None show evidence of any such motifs. The only clear evidence of art in the bunker that I know of are the semi-amateur murals in parts of the bunker occupied by SS troops.[4], [5],
2. If he did have such images what would it prove? I have already provided an example of a well-known evangelical Christian politician (Gladstone) who had the goddess Athena depicted on a statue of himself. It was there because he admired Homer. Hitler admired Wagner, so it would be unsurprising if he had images of characters from Wagner. As the valkyrie page shows, such images were common at the time, unrelated to religious beliefs.
3. Pagan images have been part of decorative art culture in palaces for centuries (obviously the bunker is hardly a palace, but it was a state building). Germanic mythology was increasingly popular for nationalistic reasons from the mid-Nineteenth century on. Again, this is usually unrelated to religious affiliation. Paul B 12:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Well it seems from this that Codex claims some personal knowledge of the content of the bunker: "I have seen the photographic proof that it was totally filled with carvings of valkyries and Odin, etc... I'm not talking about snapshots, I'm talking about albums published by the Nazis themselves, full of pictures of the interior". What these mysterious "albums" are remains unexplained, nor why they would "publish" pictures of the interior of a secret bunker. This claim also seems to contradict what other sources state about the contents of the bunker. However, it is known that Hitler had lots of material from Bayreuth in the bunker, including the original scores of Wagner's operas, all of which went missing after the war - looted no doubt. Perhaps these albums relate to productions of Wagner, but until we know what they are the reference must surely go. Paul B 21:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yeah

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

The above site is an example of a bad one. It's collected a range of images, then used them to support an argument that they often simply do not support. For example, take the images purporting to show a Nazi love of Christmas. The Nazis actually de-Christianized Christmas, a task made easier by the German term, which avoids any reference to Christ (Weihnacht). For example, before the war, Nazi propagandists discussed how to transform Christmas from a Christian to a Nazi holiday (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/feier37.htm). During the war, they produced annual booklets to help Germans celebrate Christmas. None of them made any mention at all of the Christian aspects of Christmas. See, for example, the booklet for Christmas 1944 (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/weihnacht44.htm).
Paul B is right. Steigmann-Gall is the most reliable recent source on the matter. He makes his case more strongly than I think entirely justified, but at least he does it based on evidence and careful argument. Bytwerk 12:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gunther on Hitler's "Religious" beliefs

American John Gunther visited Europe before the war during Hitler's early years and was uniquely in a position to comment on what was know about the man. He devoted much of his bestseller book "Inside Europe" to Hitler and several pages (pp. 9-11) to his religious agenda.

"He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But he lost faith early and attends no religious services of any kind. His Catholicism means nothing to him... On being formed his government almost immediately began a fierce religious war against Catholics, Protestants, and Jews alike...
Catholicism he considered a particularly dangerous competitive force, because it demands two allegiances of a man, and double allegiance was something Hitler could not countenance. Thus the campaign against "black moles," as Nazis call priests. Several times German relations with the Vatican neared the breaking point. Protestantism was --theoretically-- a simpler matter to deal with, because the Lutheran Church presumably was German and nationalist. Hitler thought that by the simple installation of an army chaplain, a ferocious Nazi named Mueller, as Reichbishop, he could "coordinate" the Evangelical Church in Germany, and turn it to his service. ..
It was quite natural, following the confused failure to Nazify Protestatism, that some of Hitler's followers should have turned to Paganism. The Norse myths are a first-class nationalist substitute. Carried to its logical extreme, Naziism in fact demands the creation of a new and nationalist religion. Hitler has indicated this in a speech at Nuremberg in September, 1935. "Christianity," he said, "succeeded for a time in uniting the old Teutonic tribes, but the Reformation destroyed this unity. Germany is now a united nation. National Socialism has succeeded where Christianity failed." And Heiden has quoted Hitler's remark, "We do not want any other God than Germany itself." This is a vital point. Germany is Hitler's religion.
One of Hitler's grudges against God is the fact that Jesus was a Jew. Another is a nationalist grudge again. The basis of the Nazi revolution was the defeat of Germany in the War. Thus religion had to be Nazified because no God who permitted the French and other "inferior" races to win the War could be a satisfactory God for Germany...

I have several other pre-war sources that address this same topic, including some written by German authors, but this should be enough fodder material for the article for now...! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Nobody disputes the assertion that "Germany is Hitler's religion". There is nothing whatever here to support your claims. All it says is that some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism. Again, no one disputes that. Paul B 21:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Which of my "claims" are you referring to? I am only submitting this excerpt as material to shed some light on the subject in general... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't be so disingenuous. Paul B 21:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heiden on Hitler's religious beliefs

Hitler's biographer, German Konrad Heiden also has some relevant comments in his book Der Fuehrer: (p.632-633)

"...Many insisted that German religion free itself from the Jewish Biblical tradition -- from 'Satan's Bible', as Hitler eleven years before, in a conversation with Dietrich Eckart, had called the Old Testament... Hitler himself in his youth, as he told his friend Hanisch, had been convinced that the hisotrical Jesus had been no Jew, but the son of one Pantherus, a Greek soldier in the Roman army...
...in March, 1933, it is true, he had demonstratively remained absent from the services of his Church; there was the story that in his youth he had spat out the Host... At all events, on July 1 he let it be officially proclaimed: "Reich Chancellor Hitler still belongs to the Catholic Church and has no intentions of leaving it."
p. 637: ...At this point, open warfare broke out between the Church and the Party. Almost anything might have provoked it, for these were two faiths which could not live at peace with one another. The most obvious cause was the racial question, for the German Christians had demanded that only Aryans be admitted to the Church... The Church as such could not renounce these people, for Christ had said: "Ye shall teach all nations."... In the Protestant Church the German Christians, with their insistence on the introduction of the "Aryan clause" into the articles of faith, stood two thousand years of church history on its head. For the history of the Christian Church had begun with the principle that all Christians must be circumcised Jews, and only when this principle was discarded did Christianity begin to grow and to "teach all nations"; now, in 1933, it was no longer permissible for a Christian to have been a circumcised Jew. When Bodelschwingh and his clergymen resisted this idea... High and low clergymen were thrown out. Muller was made head of the Protestant churches, and Bodelschwingh was forced to resign. On July 2, 1933, the swastika flags were raised over the Evangelical churches of Germany.

I am giving these excerpts in hopes they may give some clearer picture from a contemporary source. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This is all very well known information. The question is, how it supposed to affect the content of the article, which is about Hitler's personal beliefs, not the details of Nazi attempts to extend their anti-Semitic legislation to the Protestant churches and to unite them under the leadership of the Nazi Lutheran Ludwig Müller. We have other articles for that issue. Paul B 19:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reviews of Steigmann-Gall

For those interested, the January 2007 issue of the Journal of Contemporary History has five extensive reviews of Steigmann-Gall's "The Holy Reich." The reviews find interesting things in his analysis, but the balance is that he considerably overstates the connections of Nazism and Christianity. The first review, Stanley Stowers, is the most favorable. He concludes:

Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich provides a clear alternative to vague ideas about an incoherent religion of National Socialism that arose due to the spiritual vacuum of modernity and tried to replace Christianity. Instead of symbols and rituals that work in mysterious ways and language that does not mean what it seems to mean, "The Holy Reich" shows that the dominant portion of the nazi leadership held familiar Christian beliefs with their own distinctive interpretations of some points.

Doris Bergen likes some of what Steigmann-Gall does, but also finds a lot of problematic points.

Manfred Gailus doesn't like the book at all, finding it riddled with factual errors and misinterpretations. A typical comment:

As so often in his expositions, he carries his thesis too far and tends to extrapolate National Socialism as a whole from its partial reality .

Ernst Piper finds Steigmann-Gall ignorant of a lot of the important literature, and concludes:

He provides interesting information about the religious career of leading National Socialists, but has failed to justify his claim to have proved that National Socialism was a Christian movement.

Irving Hexham takes S-G to task for misuse of sources. Commenting on S-G's use of Alfred Rosenberg, for example, Hexham writes:

It is here that Steigmann-Gall's approach fails. Rather than enabling the reader to understand how and why people accepted nazi logic he dismisses it as illogical and vainly seeks an alternative explanation that leads him to deny that anyone could possibly have read Rosenberg's work.

Steigmann-Gall will respond to the reviews in the next issue of the journal. Should be interesting.

The reviews provide one of the better examples of scholarly controversy I've seen lately, and those who have been active in the discussions here might find the issue worth the time to exhume from the nearest academic library. Bytwerk 20:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems worth looking at, but I don't recall anywhere in the book in which S-G says that "National Socialism was a Christian movement". Paul B 22:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] changes by User:Giovanni33

I reverted these changes because he has been repeatedly reverted on this issue and he is removing sourced information, which is not original research. Vassyana 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the only editor who is removing these additions or think it is OR. Many of the statments are not sourced, nor it is shown that the supposed and questionable sources are saying what is being claimed. For example: 14:55, 23 January 2007 Andrew Delong (Talk | contribs) (rv original research -- doesn't follow that he had "no attachment"; overly strong and speculative statement).
For example:"Despite the unclear position of Hitler's public speeches on religion, it may be concluded from his self-chosen suicide, that he had no attachment to Roman Catholic, and general Christian, teachings on morality which forbid suicide in all cases," Notice that you are jumping to a conclusion for the reader when you say, "it may be concluded from his..." This is creating a synthesis and pushing a POV. Its not an uncontested fact. Also, what source says this?!
Besides being original research, which is not allowed, its presenting a pov's as undisputed facts, which is also not allowed. Also, we have the problem of undue weight from this minority views. The view is presented as if it were the only view and given full weight when this pov does not reflect consensus on the question. The other big problem is that it does not use neutral language, as explained above. You can never present a speculative theory, even if it is from a legitimate source as a fact, nor can one relay on a source's POV as representing the truth in the matter unless it clearly is the consensus among historians in the academy. Surely, if this is the case, one should be able to find other sources to collaborate these claims, or even quote exactly what this author says, and prove his qualifications to speak so authoritatively on the matter? A google search does not yeild anything. We only want the best scholars/historians in the field to represent their work, unless this is an article on the scholar in question--then we can focus on his POV/theories, but with proper qualification. Also, don't forget this has to do with Hitler's personal belief system, not the plans the Nazi's may have had.Giovanni33 21:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"A google search does not yield anything". Really? Heinz Hutzen is professor emeritus of modern history at the Catholic University of Eichstaett. He is clearly an important historian, not a nobody. Equally clearly, he is a Catholic apologist. Paul B 09:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Disruptive editing and removing sourced material along with unsourced material is not the way to go. I am going to change the article back again. There is clear disapproval from multiple editors about your removal of this material. If you disagree, please focus on editing the unsourced comments and rephrasing improper language. If you disagree more strongly than that, please go for an RfC or mediation. Vassyana 22:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future of the Catholic Church

Rather than engaging in an edit war, let's take a straw poll to see where people stand. It is not a replacement for consensus and discussion, but can give everyone a clear view of where people stand. Please vote Support, Neutral or Oppose under the appropriate option. Please keep any comments to the dicussion section for clarity. Vassyana 22:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Question: Should the Future of the Catholic Church section be removed from this article?

[edit] Option 1: Yes

  1. Strong Support

[edit] Option 2: No

  1. Weak Support

[edit] Discussion

  • It has citations. It seems relevent to the topic. Needs some cleanup. Quotes from sources would be desirable. Citation from a critical view of this position would be desirable. Cleanup, not removal is the answer, in my opinion. Vassyana 22:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm for keeping what is good, but the clean up that is needed is not minor and thus it should be removed until its cleaned it. The sources do not support all the statments it makes, nor does it makes it an a way that is neutral, nor does it respect the policy of no OR as it draws conclusions baased on synthesis. It violates NPOV as it states POV's as facts, and the claims attributed to various sources must be verifiable and from sources that represent an accepted POV among historians. Lastly, and this is a reason not to keep it here at all is that this is about the future of the Catholic Church under Nazi Germany, and this article is about Hitler's personal religious beliefs. It does not belong here. It belongs on Nazism and Religion where it was copied and pasted from--unless this article is going to argue that Goebbels beliefs on religious matters are identical to Hitler's? Giovanni33 23:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with both comments above, as far as they go. However, I do think we can retain a reference to this in this article (the fuller treatment would be in the Nazism and Religion article, where I might add it's not merely "Hitler and ..."), as such plans are also indicative of Hitler's beliefs. Str1977 (smile back) 11:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have no objection to the inclusion of a discussion of plans for the future following the "final victory", if they can be usefully linked to Hitler himself, but we have to be clear about the sources, and that theories are not facts. I really don't think we should be including the fact that he shot himself. Lots of Christians and non-Christians have killed themselves. It was a part of the Prussian military tradition for disgraced or defeated leaders to do so. Also, even the principal Nazi Christian Ludwig Müller shot himself. It would be like adding to the Roosevelt article the claim that he can't have been a Christian because he had an affair. Paul B 11:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Just a quick addition to Paul: that Hitler shot himself may not conflict with Christianity in general, as understood at the time or today, but it conflicts with any supposed Catholic faith. The Prussian military and its code was Protestant in nature. Of course, it shouldn't be overdone but it is IMHO a sensible point. Str1977 (smile back) 13:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I generally watch this article to learn things, so I'm in no position to contribute, but the "Hitler's suicide speaks against his Catholic faith" argument bugs be precisely for the reason PaulB mentioned. It's like saying a woman's faith in Islam is "questionable" if she doesn't wear the hijab, or that a Catholic person's faith is questionable if they don't fight against the death penalty. Even if this kind of speculation were from a historian it wouldn't merit inclusion here; the article cites lots of better evidence that his religious convictions were ... clouded. --Andrew Delong 14:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • You may not be aware of this, that suicide is a mortal sin in the Catholic religion and that its handlung was way much much more strict in Hitler's day. A suicide never received a proper burial and was commonly seen as hellbound as one could get. To compare it with mere clothing regulations and Islam in general (note, this is not about Christianity in general) is fallacious. Str1977 (smile back) 14:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes I am aware of that, but it's beside the point. I don't think Hitler's Catholicism was anything more than nominal of course, but the fact is that even members of the Mafia think of themselves as "Catholics". How can one be a Catholic and a Hit Man? I don't know, but some people convince themselves that they can. Likewise, overwhelming despair, guilt, fear of humiliation can overcome someone's belief system leading to suicide. Several Catholic Priests accused of child abuse have committed suicide[6] Does this mean that the priests weren't really Catholics? Paul B 17:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not want this to crowd the entire discussion but still have to give a short reply: as for the suicide priests, the question is when they killed themselves? Today, things are much more lenient nowadays (even though Catholic doctrine has not changed). Also, I am not suggesting his suicide to be the sole "piece of evidence". Finally, as for Catholic mafiosi, I guess they in some crooked way justify their doings or think they can misuse the sacrament of confession to wipe themselves clean. However, this is not the case regards suicide - for obvious reasons. This is why suicide is different from any other act. Str1977 (smile back) 11:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The idea that suicide calls into question someone's Catholicism, perhaps more so than murder (!), because it is "different from any other act" seems rigid, POV, and purely speculative -- I don't see how you can get around that. I can't imagine Encyclopaedia Britannica getting away with such an irresponsible claim. The "POV" I'm referring to is that you're probably viewing this from the perspective of someone who would never consider suicide, whereas it should not be surprising that some people can contemplate suicide and still consider themselves to be Catholic. Anyway, even if your assertion is widely supported, wouldn't it make sense to first find a respectable source that makes that conclusion (probably not too hard)? To cite Catholic laws does not address the issue (particularly laws that were young in Hitler's time). --Andrew Delong 20:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
This is original research. The "source" is simply a link to biblical text and no one is referenced making these comments, they are simply stated. You are going to have to cite someone claiming this if you want to use it and phrase it as exactly that. This is not a soapbox or the place for original research. :bloodofox: 03:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


In addition to the OR problem, and POV problem, and the Undue Weight probme, we have inclusion of material that does not belong here. I keep removing this text, which is about Goebbels views from his diary, which is fine if this article is about Goebbel's views, but this article is about Hitler's religous beliefs. Still, Smith keeps inserting this over and over and saying that my removing it is "vandalism." Can anyone make an argument why the below even belongs here (other than POV pushing by suggesting that Hitler shared Goebbels view?

Nevertheless in his diary Goebbels openly wrote about the "traitors of the Black International who again stabbed our glorious government in the back by their criticism", by which he meant the indirectly or actively resisting Catholic clergymen (who wore black cassocks).Giovanni33 23:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll just chime in and say that while I seldom ("never" would probably be a better word) agree with Giovanni's edits, they are most certainly not vandalism, and should not be referred to as such in edit summaries. Vandalism is really something like blanking a whole article, and putting in the word "poop" instead. It's not the removal of a section that offends your POV. Musical Linguist 01:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus, Suicide and the Catholic Church

Reading over the comments above, it seems that the consensus indicates:

  • That the suicide claims in relation to religion do not belong in the article.

Comment. While there are biblical verses supporting such a position, original research is "an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source". Unless the assertion can be linked to an outside reliable source, it should not be included in the article. If the source is biased, or displays a POV, this must be clearly stated in the article.

  • That the "Future of the Catholic Church" section should link to the appropriate section in the Nazism and Religion article. That such discussion should be limited. That any biased sources or POVs should be clearly attributed to their authors. That the section needs some cleanup and clarification.

Does this seem accurate? Any strong objections?Vassyana 11:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Vassyana, for helping with fixing this article and counter the edit waring. I think you have summed up correctly the situation. The fixed, minimized version that exists now, while much bettter than what was there before (OR, POV), still--I think--doesn't belong in this article simply because the "Future plans of the Nazi regime" which is what this section is concerns is quite a sepearate subject than the personal religious beliefs of Hitler, which is what the article is supposed to be about. It simply doesn't belong here, and it's repeated from the Nazism and Religion article. The other problem that concerns me is that the POV it expresses from this historian is given undue weight, and there is a question of the notibility of this historian's POV; I did a google test and came up with nothing for this speculative POV.Giovanni33 19:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I know Giovanni is trying to delete this over at Nazism and Religion too, but that's obviously a better place for the section. Simply duplicating material here is not helpful. The book referred to is not readily available in English speaking countries. It would help if Smith transcribed some of the relevant passages on Talk pages. I must admit, I haven't read, in any of the material I have looked at, any evidence that the Nazis had clearly defined plans for the Catholic or other churches. Intemperate remarks written in diaries, or proposals, are not definite plans. The section would be better if it was more precise in attributing ideas to specific leaders or factions within NSDAP. Paul B 09:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Heinz Hutzen is professor emeritus of modern history at the Catholic University of Eichstaett. He is clearly an important historian, not a nobody. Equally clearly, he is a Catholic apologist. Paul B 09:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely agreed. Vassyana 10:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The sources seem to be problematic for the Catholic Church section. While Dr. Hürten is a very well-respected scholar and his "German Catholics" is a widely accepted text, not all of his theories have such broad support. In particular, the "pet theory" cited seems to be very controversial. Also, Burt Natter is not a professional historian, but rather a popular journalist/essayist who is explicitly called an "amateur historian" by many. Between these facts, it seems certainly proper to refer to the theory as speculative or, at the very least, highly controversial. Certainly, I can find almost no supporting reference to the theory beyond these authors except among those who praise Dr. Hürten in nothing but the highest terms, and even then they are but passing references. Vassyana 10:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Question. How should we proceed in light of the above? Can anyone find additional references that are neither slavish nor antagonistic to Dr. Hürten where the theory is the primary focus, whether supporting or dissenting? Vassyana 10:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that unless Smith or whoever wants to keep this here can provide an argument for keeping it, and address these problems, raised above, then it should be removed from this article.Giovanni33 19:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
As there was no defense to these problems rasied above, I've removed it. This never belonged in the section on Hitler's personal beliefs to begin with.Giovanni33 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV External links

To avoid edit warring on this topic, I suggest we have an external links section that categorises the links according to their POV. We do this on some other articles in which there are radical disagreements about the merits of links. For example the articles related to Shakespeare authorship conspiracy theories have led to "link deletion wars", mainly because many contribuors think all "Shakespeare wasn't Shakespeare" arguments are fringe and nonsensical. The same problem exists on pages devoted to Aryan Invasion theory (a subject obliquly related to the topic of this page), in which links are now arranged in pro and con. Speaking personally, I have no objection to the inclusion of polemical Christian, anti-Christian, Neopagan, Atheist, anti-Atheist etc websites as external links as long as they provide accurate information along with their POV. Paul B 09:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

My concern on that is that the site currently popping in and out is produced by an engineer with no particular qualifications on the article topic. His other main Internet interest seems to be reviewing pornography. There is some accurate information, some inaccurate. Once one starts adding dubious sites and arranging them by POV, the list could get long. Bytwerk 11:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm familiar with that site and he is primarily intereted in science, evolution, and religion. I didn't see anything about pornography. The good thing about his site is that he makes the particular POV he has very well. The site that is being taken down is simply a disection of Hitler's book. Since this article is about Hitler's personal religious beliefs, I see this is very fitting.Giovanni33 18:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, Gio, you don't like Natter because "he's not an historian." Neither is Wong. The ponography bit may be a bit of a cheap shot, but if you click on his name at the bottom of the page, his biography page links to "Mike's Porn Reviews." The point is that the argument is made well by Steigmann-Gall, rather more strongly than I'd make it, as I've said before. What Wong has done is to stack the material to lead to a conclusion that simply is not one that anyone I have read with credentials in the field would accept to the degree that Wong takes it. There are equally bad collections of quotations on the other side, arguing that Hitler was not a Christian. There are sites that argue Hitler invaded Ausria to get the "Spear of Destiny." Others argue he and the Nazis were in touch with demonic forces. I don't think the article is improved by sending people to dubious POV sites. Bytwerk 19:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well Natter was being quoted as a historian when he is not, and he was being used in the body of the article. This is not what we are doing with Wong's article and site. Its in external links. The standards are not so high in the external links section which is a place, among other things, for POV--whoever makes the POV the strongest. The POV he advances, that Hitler was a Christian true and true, is a valid POV, and does not compare to the other lunatic pov that you compare it to, i.e. "Nazi's in touch with demonic forces," etc. So that argument is not valid, either.Giovanni33 00:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Besides the fact that the site is dubious, it does not give page references to any of the citations that would enable an interested reader to check them out. And although standards for external links may be looser than for the article text, there still should be reasonable standards. An engineer writing about Hitler is not likely to increase the credibility of the article, particularly when the point he makes is stronger than any knowledgeable historian is going to support. I repeat that sending people to dubious sources is not a wise idea. Bytwerk 02:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Dubious is not a fact its an opinion. Let the reader look at the evidence the site presents, look at the argument it makes, and let them decide. It is strong because it uses the text of Hitler's book, to make its case. True, it doesn't give exact page numbers but it does give chapters and volume so its relatively easy to find. I had no trouble finding the quotes it references. So that others can see this link its: *Essay on the use of Christian metaphors and imagery in Mein Kampf.Giovanni33 21:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guideline on external links (WP:EL) lists external links normally to be avoided. One of them is: "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." I think a personal page by an engineer rather falls afoul of that guideline. Bytwerk 03:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
You leave out what it prefaces this advice with: "Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article...one should avoid:..." This is about the subject--Hitler's relisous beliefs. There is no rule against posting this link. It fits and you have not come up with any objections that stand. It makes the case for this POV. If you don't like it, you are welcome to link to a site that makes the counter argument. Do not censor valid information.Giovanni33 07:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Well. I would be interested in what others think on the matter. Some comments.
First, the guideline page, besides the section I quote above, also says that things that should be linked include: "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons." The site in question is certainly not neutral, though I have not checked to see if the passages it cites are accurate.
Second, Gio says that the lead-in to the section I quoted states: "Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject". Now, if we take the first clause as literally as Gio, there is no reason to give most of the criteria that follow (e.g., unique resources, promoting websites, etc.). I read that as saying that, say, Adolf Hitler's personal web page, if there were such a thing, could be an appropriate link. To read it as Gio does means that almost anything could be justified as long as it is about the subject of the article.
Third, Gio suggests adding links that make the counter-argument. That makes the situation even worse, since it adds still more dubious links.
Fourth, in his change note, Gio suggests "list all POVs." However, he doesn't mean that, since he responded earlier that he thought some POVs weren't worth adding (e.g., Hitler was in communication with the devil), and he's willing, apparently, to censor them, since they are in his opinion "lunatic." Still, those are POVs, and some have adherents at least as "qualified" as the engineer behind the questionable page.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? Bytwerk 12:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Well I enjoyed Mike's wife's review of the mircowavable dildo. On the more pertinant aspects of the site, my general view is "inclusionist" as I said above - that goes for Creationist Hitler-was-a-Darwinist sites too, as long as the facts are not palpably wrong. But unless we agree to an inclusionist approach - which would mean specifying the POV of the websites, this one should not be added, because its arguments are far to blatently one-sided. Mentioning the word church does not mean you are using "christian metaphors". Paul B 13:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with what Bytwerk and Paul B wrote. One more note on the guideline. The first sentence clearly means that if this were an article about this Mike and/or his web page, then his page would be a proper link. Even Hitler's webpage would not be one here. It would be in the article Hitler's internet webpage. Str1977 (smile back) 21:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
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