Talk:Admiral of the Fleet of the Russian Federation
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- A Vote for Deletion on this article [1] was held and resulted in a vote of "KEEP"
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[edit] VFD
According to the Russian Federal Law "On military duty and military service", http://www.mil.ru/articles/article3718.shtml, there's no naval rank equivalent to the Marshal of the Russian Federation, unlike the Soviet Union where there was a naval rank equivalent to the Marshal of the Soviet Union, the one of Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union. I'm listing the Fleet Admiral (Russia) article for deletion. --DmitryKo 10:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- This article is based on U.S. Army and Navy comparative ranks files which establishes that Russia has a five star naval rank which may be used during time of war. Also, since there is an insignia for the position (as is shown on the page), stands to reason there would be a 5 star naval rank. I cant read Russian so have no idea what that page says. -Husnock 16:04, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- See below. --DmitryKo 22:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Source for this rank
To be fair, heres the source for this rank. This is a scan from a PDF file entitled "Comparative Military Ranks of the Russian Federation" as published by the U.S. Army. -Husnock 16:34, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I fail to understand how artist's drawing in a research work can be the evidence here. I can design an insignia for a Grand Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation if you wish, something with a nice double big Nakhimov stars layout - would it make this rank into existance as well?
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- NO need to be sarcastic buddy. I provided my source to state where this article came from. I see no reason to adopt such a tone. -Husnock 23:30, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Here's the text of the legislation regarding Russian military ranks that comes from the offical site of the State Duma - I don't think you need any other source, even the one that comes from the US Army. You can either use Babelfish machine translations services or simply read my translation of the article in question below.
[edit] Federal Law "On military duty and military service"
Current revision, http://wbase.duma.gov.ru/ntc/vdoc.asp?kl=4488
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A r t i c l e 46. Categories of servicemen and military ranks
1. There are the following categories of servicemen and military
ranks established in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, other
troops, military units and bodies:
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Categories Military ranks
of servicemen
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of the [ground] troops deck
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Soldiers, matroses, private matrose
sergeants, gefreiter senior matrose
starshinas junior sergeatn starshina of the 2nd class
sergeant starshina of the 1st class
senior sergeant chief starshina
starshina chief ship's starshina
Praporshchiks and praporshchik midshipman
midshipmen senior praporshchik senior midshipman
Officers: junior lieutenant junior lieutenant
junior officers lieutenant lieutenant
senior lieutenant senior lieutenant
captain lieutenant captain
senior officers major captain of the 3rd rank
subpolkovnik captain of the 2nd rank
polkovnik captain of the 1st rank
supreme officers major general counter admiral
lieutenant general vice admiral
polkovnik general admiral
general of the army admiral of the fleet
Marshal of the Russian Federation
2. Military rank of a serviceman serving in a Guards unit or on a Guards ship
is augmented with "of the Guards"
3. Military rank of a serviceman who has a speciality in justice or medicine
is augmented with "of the justice" or "of the medical service" respectively.
4. Military rank of a citizen in a reserve or retirement is augmented with
"of the reserve" or "in a retirement".
...
President of the Russian Federation B.Yeltsin
Moscow, Kremlin
March 12, 1998
No. 58-FZ
Here's the previous revision of the law, http://wbase.duma.gov.ru/ntc/vdoc.asp?kl=8817 The ranks table is only different in one particular row, so the rest is omitted.
Article45. Categories of servicemen and military ranks
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+--------------+-------------------+------------------------¦
¦Soldiers and ¦ private (cadet) ¦ matrose (cadet) ¦
¦matroses ¦ gefreiter ¦ senior matrose ¦
+--------------+-------------------+------------------------¦
...
President of the Russian Federation B.Yeltsin
Moscow, Russian House of Soviets
February 11, 1993
No. 4455-I
--DmitryKo 22:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I only say it would make sense that a 5 star rank would be on the books in case of a war or national emergency. I'm not disputing that the Russian military has no such rank at present, but only that the info from the U.S. armed forces states that such a rank is plausable much like the U.S. five star versions. Of course, I won't deny that Russian data is more accurate that U.S. data. But is it really the case that Russia now does not have a five star Admiral rank? -Husnock 23:30, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I'm actually leaning towards your sources. It just seems very strange no more 5 star naval rank. if the article does get deleted, one on the four star fleet admiral should be created. I ask for clarification on the burning question here: If Russia became involvoed in a major war would they create a five star rank? I think thats what the U.S Amry was getting at when they published the rank chart. -Husnock 23:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Yes, it does seem strange that supreme rank for both Army and Navy is Marshal. What more can I say? Seems like the naval rank was lost in the process of transition from the Soviet Army to the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. However, it would only made even more confusion if this rank existed. And no, the rank will not be automatically created at wartime, becase there's no provisions for this in any law. Nothing prevents it from being introduced in the future, even at wartime, but for now it simply just does not exist. --DmitryKo 10:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
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- My question is if there is no such rank, then why can shoulder boards can be found online: http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-photos16/radsb23.jpg. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
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- I wouldn't trust collector sites because they can easily be fooled. I once had to dissappoint a retired Scotland police sergeant who was very proud of his very special "KGB badge", which turned out to be a road police badge instead. I believe the insignia pictured is either fake or maybe it's some preliminary design made for future reference but abandoned afterwards.
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- Uniform Insignia is more accurate on most Soviet and Russian Ranks isignia that this collector site. First, here http://www.tridentmilitary.com/Soviet.Uniforms.II.htm they're making no distinction between Admiral of the Fleet (one big Nakhimov star) and Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union (even bigger star with Soviet Coat of Arms). This can be attributed to the fact that many Admirals of the Fleet were promoted to Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union upon retirement, so they just didn't encounter this particular insignia yet. Second, Soviet-like one-star design for Admiral of the Fleet (as well as for General of the Army where it the star accompanied by yet another smaller star in wreath) was used until 1997, but then it was changed to four inline stars for both ranks, while they claim one-star design is the current one. Third, I have never seen Igor Sergeyev, who remains the only Marshal of the Russian Federation so far, wearing many bizarre shoulder boards present in the Rank Chart here http://www.tridentmilitary.com/RUSSIANMILITARIA/Default.htm - in particular, the one where the Coat of Arms has red shield on it. It could be a preliminary design though (see below).
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[edit] Presidential Decree "On military uniform, rank insignia of the servicemen and state bodies' rank insignia"
http://document.kremlin.ru/doc.asp?ID=27589&PSC=10&PT=3&Page=21
Supplement 2 to the Decree No. 531 from May 8, 2005
Military rank insignia of the servicemen of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation,
other troops, military units and bodies
...
3. Rank insignia to be placed on shoulder boards of a:
Marshal of the Russian Federation - the star, located on a longitudal centerline
of the shoulder board, with red endings; above the star is an image of the State Coat of Arms
of the Russian Federation with no heraldic shield
general of the army - four stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board,
with or without red (aviation, Airborne Troops and Space Troops - blue) engings
polkovnik general - three stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board,
with or without red (aviation, Airborne Troops and Space Troops - blue) engings
lieutenant general - two stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board,
with or without red (aviation, Airborne Troops and Space Troops - blue) engings
major general - a star located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board, with or
without red (aviation, Airborne Troops and Space Troops - blue) enging
admiral of the fleet - four stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board,
each superimposed to the rays of gray or black color, with an anchor of golden color placed
on the pentagon of black color inside the star
admiral - three stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board, each
superimposed to the rays of gray or black color, with an anchor of golden color placed
on the pentagon of black color inside the star
vice admiral - two stars located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board, each
superimposed to the rays of gray or black color, with an anchor of golden color placed
on the pentagon of black color inside the star
counter admiral - a star located on a longitudal centerline of the shoulder board,
superimposed to the rays of gray or black color, with an anchor of golden color placed
on the pentagon of black color inside the star
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4.Sleeve rank insignia of deck officer staff:
admiral of the fleet - a star and golden stripes (one wide stripe with four narrow ones above)
admiral - a star and golden stripes (one wide stripe with three standard ones above)
vice admiral - a star and golden stripes (one wide stripe with two standard ones above)
counter admiral - a star and golden stripes (one wide stripe with a standard one above)
captain of the 1st rank - a star and a stripe (a wide one)
captain of the 2nd rank - a star and stripes (four standard ones)
captain of the 3rd rank - a star and stripes (three standard ones)
lieutenant captain - a star and stripes (two standard and a narrow one above)
senior lieutenant - a star and stripes (two standard ones)
lieutenant - a star and stripes (a standard and a narrow one above)
senior lieutenant - a star and a stripe (a standart one)
Should the rank of the Admiral of the Fleet of the Russian Federation exist, there would be an isignia defined, yet there's none. --DmitryKo 10:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
- You have me convinced that there is no active rank as this in the Russian military. But, I truely wonder if there were a situation where Russia got involoved in a major conflict, and other nations started appointing 5 star admirals (as was the case in WWII), would there not be some provision where a Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation could be appointed? The U.S. Army seems to think so, which is where the graphic above came about. I do not dispute any of the info above, it is quite informative. Perhaps, instead of deleting the article, merely modify to speak that this is a hypothetical rank that came about after the breakup of the USSR, it does not yet exist, but could exist if Russia ever got into a major war requiring 5 star appointments. -Husnock 13:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
- You don't give up, do you? ;) Again, this rank is not being inactive until wartime like Fleet Admiral (US), it didn't "came out" of anywhere or was proposed by anyone, it just does not exist. And I really doubt that creating more ranks would be the top priority for Russian government in wage of major war.
- Russian rank of Admiral of the Fleet can already be considered equivalent to OF-10 grade - not by the number of "stars" but by responsibility, because there's no OF-6 ("1-star") rank equivalent to Commodore/Rear Admiral (LH) in Russian Navy and similar positions would be occupied by Captains or, less common, Rear Admirals (see Naval officer ranks). There are very few nations that have OF-10 ranked officers on active duty anyway, besides some Admiral of the Fleet (Royal Navy), so the balance is already there. --DmitryKo 12:48, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Call to end VFD
I added the "disputed" tag to the article which is what I feel should have been done before this was nominated for VFD. The VFD is at a standstill with one keep vote, one delete, one abstain, and one merge. I also did some digging and found a hardcopy U.S. Navy message, issued from Bureau of Naval Personnel in 1996 which reads:
- "That no five star admiral rank currently exists in the Russian Federation however provisions remain in place for the appointment of a Russian Fleet Admiral in the event of a major war, prolonged conflict, or national emergency."
The message isnt listed on the Bupers webpage due to its age (I looked) but I was able to find it in my admin files. It is interesting, it speaks of a five star rank but doesnt actually use the term Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation. I wonder if thats how this got started with the Army publishing what they did. For the record, that PDF file is part of an overseas screening packet for personnel stationed at diplomatic postings in Russia. Its pretty offical so has some merit. It is of interest, though, that the Russian sources say no but the US sources say yes. I will bow to the Russian sources but still hold that this rank could possibly exist. VFD is not a good diea, but I see nothing wrong with the dispute tag. I strongly recommend keeping this article. There's just too much out there about it to summarily delete. -Husnock 13:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
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- I ask again - what's the use of keeping references to a hypothetical rank that was (mistakenly) assumed to be inherited from Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union and that could possibly be created in case something major happens at best, where something major is as likely as full-scale alien invasion? Yes the insignia is cool looking but it still makes little sense to me... --DmitryKo 21:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Since this has some basis in other sources like US Army documentation (which may in turn be purely speculative), why not just explain its uncertain nature more clearly, and let it stand? Otherwise, this could be rolled into Fleet Admiral (Russia) (or is that Admiral of the Fleet (Russia)), and mentioned in Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union and Marshal of the Russian Federation. —Michael Z. 2005-08-4 16:22 Z
[edit] Deck ranks
First I want to explain that russian military has deck ranks (not navy ranks), which are used only by deck personnel of the navy and maritime units of the border guard. All other naval personnel, which includes naval infantry, naval medical service, coastal service and others use all-forces ranks (not exact translation of the term, but close one), which is universal for both the armed forces of the Russian Federation and other paramilitary services. So maybe for this reason Russia has no deck equivalent of rank of Marshal of the Russian Federation, which is an all-forces rank (not an army rank), however it could have marshal insignia designed for naval uniform. --DimaY2K 14:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- This makes a perfect sense now. I'm sorry for the incorrect translation of "корабельные" as "maritime ranks", where "deck" would be more appropriate of course. --DmitryKo 19:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
