Talk:Achtung Baby
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"Until the End of the World" is a staple of their live show and charted, but it was never released as a single. It was released as a radio-only promo, but then, so was half the album and a B-side.
--typhoon 01:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Say, anyone think that a seperate page for the Salome bootlegs/outtakes is a decent idea? I don't know enough about it to do it myself, but I might do some research if no one else does...
-- Andrew McCaffrey 03:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Individual song articles
I added articles for every song on the album, according to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Songs guidelines. They could use some work, though. --Kristbg 23:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Robert Christgau Bomb
Does anybody can explain what that bomb means ? It´s obvious reading his reviews that he´s a pretensious and mediocre music critic, but wen I first saw this "bomb" it tought it was in a good sense. But after reading his reviews, I noticed he didn´t wrote anything about the album, so that only can means he found it execrable. From an obviously mediocre person it can be understandable, but as far as I can think no decent critic would ever give it such a bad note. I think the "bomb" should be removed, because "Achtung Baby" is, by far, one of the best rock albums ever made. User:Mistico
- Well, we shouldn't remove a review just because we don't agree with it... but I have to agree that I can't see why a review by that guy is more relevant than one written by myself or any other person. --Kristbg 00:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem as you can see by yourself is that the critic doesn´t even wrote a review about this album ! He simply put a "bomb" note. So, as much as I could disagree with his review, I would agree that it should remain, at least to people see that some critics have weird personal tastes in music (the man gives A - to Shakira´s "Laundry Service" !) But as the man is so cinical that he didn´t even wrote a review on "Achtung Baby", I think the link should and must be removed. User:Mistico
I don't understand Wikipedia's obsession with this guy; he's all over the album pages on the site. Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums says "do not include reviews from people or groups whose judgement our audience has no reason to respect," and I've never found anything on his web site that makes me care about his opinions. He's apparently some legendary rock critic, and that's all well and good, but his web site sucks. The reviews are all short or non-existent and pretty insubstantial even when he bothers to actually write something. I don't care if a review is positive or not or even insightful or not, but it should at least look like the author was trying.
Anyway, removing his reviews is probably a lost cause. I tried it before on various album pages (U2 and otherwise), and people just add them back for whatever reason. Like I said, people are obsessed with this guy for some reason. --typhoon 22:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I took it out. After all, it's not a review, it's just a picture of a bomb. When someone puts up a review by Robert Christgau that has actual WORDS, I guess it'll be fine. --Kristbg 19:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Hmmmm, it's back. What the hell, let it stay - never cared much about it anyway... --Kristbg 20:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Sorry, Cristiano, I took too much time before finishing the edit and starting and finishing this note! It means a dud, and it means Christgau didn't like it. The fact that he didn't write any words to go with the review is egregious, but his '90s and later reviews' grading scale do not offer justification for any dud ratings. (I notice that he likes (i.e., B- or better) virtually every U2 album).
- While I do NOT agree with many a of his reviews, he is a veteran music critic from the Village Voice and needs to be taken seriously, if he does say so himself. Especially before 1988 or so, he usually has something interesting to say in his reviews.
- This non-review appeared in the April 21, 1992 issue of the Voice - along with an A- for Kronos Quartet. You can take Christgau for what he is — a pompous, bloviating certified New York Rock Snob — but the fact that he didn't like Achtung Baby (which is one of my own fave raves) shouldn't be taken personally. It was not to his taste and he found Chris Bell more compelling, alas. More to the point, if you're going to use Christgau reviews you have to take his bad calls along with his good ones. --Fantailfan 20:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I didn't mean to remove the review just because I didn't agree with it. Although I would hardly consider Achtung Baby a "bomb", it's not one of my favorite U2 albums either. But the reason I removed it is because I don't think that a "review" has happened until the reviewer has something to say about the object of his review. You'll notice that I also removed Christgau's review for Pop, for the same reason. I actually read all reviews of U2 albums he wrote, and I agree with some (not many) of them. I just don't consider the "bomb" a review.
- Since I removed the review from the article, I took a look at the WikiProject:Albums, and I noticed that Christgau is listed there as an accepted reviewer, so I don't think it's up to me anymore to decide whether or not it should stay there.
- Oh, and I'm sorry if it looked like I took it personally. Again, I just didn't think that it wasn't worth mentioning, as the only thing one would find by clicking on the link would be the picture of the bomb... and I know you didn't take it personally either, as I see you're also a fan of Achtung Baby... :-)
- So... no hard feelings. --Kristbg 21:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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- You didn't take it personally--you argue against it in fact, earlier. It's more, I think, a question of using rock criticism as a guide to purchasing music (have any Freedy Johnston? I do) is tricky, at best. Or letting it color one's feelings against a piece of music one treasures, despite questionable citical appraisal. --Fantailfan 22:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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- lol, you're right... hmmmmm, gotta find something by Freedy Johnston :) --Kristbg 23:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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If Robert Christgau wants to be taken seriously and since he disliked that much such an important U2 album, why the Hell he didn´t wrote about it ? It´s simply absurd. We can judge the taste of this critic by the fact that he prefers Shakira´s "Laundry Service" to all U2 albums. User:Mistico
- Robert Christgau, whether you agree with him or not, has been reviewing music since 1967 for The Village Voice and has listened to, and reviewed, thousands of recordings. He is an "accepted reviewer" for Wikipedia. I would say almost forty years of cultural criticism and millions of words published proves that he is taken seriously. He prefers many things to all of U2's albums, which can be said of millions of popular music fans. He prefers many things which very few people have any use for. You can easily find critics who loathe U2, including Achtung Baby, and will be happy to tell you in several thousand words just how bad it is.
- And, as I said previously, Christgau's "'90s and later reviews' grading scale do not offer justification for any dud ratings" which is his prerogative. --Fantailfan 01:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I respect other people opinions, but at least, I want to read what they have to say ! You say that "You can easily find critics who loathe U2, including Achtung Baby, and will be happy to tell you in several thousand words just how bad it is." We are not talking about other critics but this in particular. But I have to agree that it´s some pretensious critics prerrogative not to explain his opinions. By the way, I can´t figure out many serious critics who give less then 3 in a 0-5 scale to that U2 album, and nobody needs to write a novel to explain his views of it. I don´t mind with Christgau at all, but since some people like him that much, let´s leave his rating there. For me, it´s the end of discussion. User:Mistico
- I think the link should be removed as it doesn't tell the reader anything. The "bomb" symbol is on the page, but if I click on his review it doesn't tell me anymore. That's not really the point of a link. If someone wants to add a "Critical reaction" section to the article and mention good or bad reviews, then its fair to include Christgau's "bomb". But as a link, it serves no purpose at all. The reader would be better served by a link to an actual review, that tells us something about why some critics were hostile to the album. If there are so many negative reviews it should be simple enough to find one. JW 13:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Of course it serves a purpose: the point of the link in the infobox is to let the reader verify the rating, not merely to reference a full review which may or may not be available. Remember that all info in a Wikipedia article, including tiny bits like a professional rating, has to be verifiable. If you take the link away, then you're taking away the verification of the info, which violates WP:V; and if you take the whole rating away, then you are censoring the info, which violates WP:NPOV (most probably because personally you don't agree with it, as it's clearly the case with all the previous people who have been censoring this rating). 213.37.6.65 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it should definately be removed, seeing as Christgau, while a major and sometimes controversial critic, did not actually write anything about the album. A review implies criticism. The "bomb" is a grade. Giving grades is not criticism, it's value judgement. These are two different things. Criticism doesn't necessarily imply value judgement. I don't see a logical justification for keeping an unexplained, arbitrary, subjective grade under the "reviews" section. True, many reviews are in fact elaborately explained opinion, but that makes it poor criticism. In this case, there isn't even any criticism in question. "Bomb" is not a review, it's a dismissal without explanation. There are only two possible explanations for why it is there: that Christgau actually had the clout and audacity to review an album without using any words (possible but unlikely), or that he never actually reviewed the album. Therefore, the bomb should certainly be removed. It should also be noted that critics who utterly dismiss major albums and differ in extremes with most critical opinion are not usually afforded much attention (case and point: the New York Times and Sgt. Pepper). There are some exceptions, like Stanley Crouch and Bitches Brew, but in this case a critic offered NO EXPLANATION at all for his rating, so professional publications and encyclopedias cannot in good conscience site this review since there is no credibility without analysis.
- By taking it away, what you are doing is blatantly censoring that piece of information (because you don't agree with it). Whether you agree with Christgau's rating or not, he is a well-known professional reviewer, therefore his ratings should be given regardless of whether he wrote a full review for them or not (he customarily doesn't write them when he doesn't think the album worthy), and regardless of whatever some Wikipedia editors may personally think of his opinions. I don't agree with his rating of this album either, but will never attempt to censor the fact that he rated this album very negatively (in fact, letting people know his bad ratings of albums like this may make some people question what they think of Christgau's opinions in general). 213.37.6.65 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Adam Clayton's penis
...i keep hearing from reputable sources (eg Q mag), that Adam Clayton is revealing his penis in the cover art... Can anyone mention this if they know the details? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Macca7174 (talk • contribs) 19:38 (UTC) 18 October 2006.
- There is a bit of copy at the bottom of the "History" section. Clayton called it, "the fifth member of the band." The back cover of the CD insert--first column, third row--is a picture of Clayton full frontal. The current version of the insert has a large "X" over his groin. --Fantailfan 11:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What is alternative?
If post-1978 rock is not plain old rock, what rock genre is it an alternative to? Fantailfan 23:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is OK to have alternative there as Rock is also there and first. We could arguably also have Pop in there (ie, Mysterious Ways, and Trying to Throw Your Arms Aorund The World and even Ultra Violet, EBTTRT) but I am sure that would just cause arguments like any kind of genre classifying. :-) --Merbabu 23:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
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- (Violet, not Violent, I make the mistake too.) Alternative is a subcategory of Rock anyway. I just find it anachronistic before 1991 or so. It's like pre-punk. Fantailfan 01:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mysterious Ways
Someone described "Mysterious Ways" as having a "closer resemblance to conventional pop music of the time (1991)." This was included in the section about "new fans" which makes it a little suspicious. I personally cannot see any important similarities between "conventional pop music," which is a very strong and limiting term, and "Mysterious Ways." There are vague traces of dance music in "Mysterious Ways," but the song features bongos, wah-wah gutiars, layers of effects, and drum loops with rock guitars; overall, it is quite objectively not very similar to "conventional pop music" of 1991, which is a vague term in and of itself, but could be said to include urban R&B and dance not totally disimilar from today's dance, hip-hop and pop music. It bears certain similarities to successful then-contemporary bands like the Stone Roses or even Primal Scream, but these Madchester types of groups were certainly not "conventional pop music" either by their own admission or the admission of their audiences. Or to give another example, even though grunge music was immensely popular at the time, it could not be said to be "conventional pop music," since it's sound was so far removed from the most consistently successful kinds of pop songs. Again, I don't think this is nitpicking and I don't think this is a subjective issue at all.
[edit] Singles info
Is there any reason to point out the fact that certain songs were released as singles underneath the track listing for the album, when farther down the page there is a listing of the singles and how they did on the charts? If no one has any objections... I'm going to remove that comment below the track listing... Jgrizzy89 17:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)