Talk:Acharya S/Archive11

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Atakc me all you like...
2 dOESNT MATTER.
3 Of COurse
4 No it has not.
5 This is also a lie.
6 Now.
7 vANDAL CLAUSE
8 No it doesnt.
9 No.
10 Changes
11 Two stupid paragraphs
12 Some cleanup
- 12.1 Summary of changes

Atakc me all you like...

Yoru atakcs on me are simply further lies, Lobo. Im not here to shoot the messenger because I dotn liek th message. You onthe other hand wan tot silence anyone who speaks againt th emessage, thats why you rmove all Critiism, or neutralise it by wordign that makes it seem unimportant.

A bully often projects their own actiosn on their victims, in this case me.

The truth is this. Her ideas are presdented neutrllay. Supporters arent needed. No other wikipedia aritlce has htem, and int ruth he rsuypporters arte all "Nobodies".

She doesnt have Universities totign her name, she doesnt have academics clammoring for her. SHes worthless as a Scholactic tool.Her works are all seondary and form suspect soruces themselves.

The removal of the King David link is not acceptable. Becuase you only remove it as it shows that she cannot defend her position. It is included onlybecause hse is direclty invovled. Critisim to her ideas is include dot show dome reaosns why her ideas arent accepted. You will to neutrlaise the critiissm in order to promote her ideas, and then challenge anyone who opposes you in this as soemone blidned by rleigiosu beleif.

Your verison isnot neutral. It slants the arilc ein Favour of DOrothy Murdock.

this Bias is unforgivable, and worse, you have completley Islated critism to make her veiw appear mroe promenant then LIE about her in the "Rave reviews" paragraph. You also make judgement calls concernign religion and rleigios belivf, which is beyind the scope of WIkjiepdia.

Its vandalsim. You may have blinded soem here, includign soem administrators, into thinkitn this is you defiendign somthgin agaisnt a zealot, but the trith is your just here to attakc those who you see as a threat. Any neutrality is seen as a threat. You want this to clearly show her ideas as correct.

Its baotu rleigoosu dogma all right. Yoru rleigiosu Dogma.

ZAROVE 04:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

To keep the record straight, I sign what I write as el Lobo and use no other name.

66.174.79.227 07:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 02:04 AM CST

dOESNT MATTER.

Im not smearign Acharya S. Thats a lie. You guys are just promotign her by vandalising the aritlce. Its a lie to say it snto Vandalism. the "At leats one critic and several detractors fromt he apolgist camp" line is POV.It exists to minimalise the critiism of her work. Just like the "Rave review" paragrpaph exists more to present her works as accepted schoalrship and turley compelling. Its an advertisement.

Deletign the link shows a bais. its an interview with the author that didnt go well so has to be removed. You just wan tot controle th einformaiton.

ZAROVE 12:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

So it doesn't matter to you... well, I think you've amply proven that.

66.174.92.165 03:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 10:51 PM EST

Of COurse

Lobo, you and yoru confederates advocae a biased verison, and bemoan the cuirrent one as Biased. You do nto show how it is biased, you jjust accuse it of such. Ive shwon how yours is.

ZAROVE 18:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Every point you have made has been discounted and shown to be false. Your bias is denial.

12.203.133.224 22:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 05:21 PM CST

No it has not.

No, it's not. You didn't even address the problems I showed withthe current version. All the hwile, you remove a link you disagree with, minimalise critisism, add lies tot he text ( Such as the "Fact" that Acharya nonetheless has origional research, or the rave review section.) No, yours is promotional of her ideas. It is not NPOV, and is vandalism.

ZAROVE 23:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

There are no problems with the current article to address. You have not presented any valid criticism. You have rejected any and every editor's point of view except your own. The bias has always rested with your endless opinionating and self-aggrandisement. There is no reasoning with someone whose motives are always in question, therefore if there be vandalism---it is all yours. No one else but you here being pettily arguementative (I can only suspect vandal's crave attention and are control freaks, other than being nuiscances).

Promotion-demotion is irrelevant. The liar accuses others of lies--you have not proved a lie about anything. The article is NPOV.--70.73.15.88 00:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

This is also a lie.

At least one critic and various detractors from the apologetic camp have claimed her work is based on poor scholarship, with little primary research and heavy reliance on outdated or fringe sources, and shows ignorance of the topics on which she writes, in particular of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Nevertheless, there is much original research in her work, especially in "Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled," her follow-up to "The Christ Conspiracy."

The Bold sections are Biased. Saying that she has only oen Critic and several detractors fromt he apologist Camp is Biased. Calling her critics detractods is biased. Saying that she "NEvertheless has origional research" is bais. It is nto WIkipeidas palce to determine if her owrk is origional or not. Her critics say it is not. (Critics, not detractors.)

Sayin that it is as a point-of-fact is a bais.

Acharya S has been described, by her own books, and website, as well as the Paranoia Magazine website, as a historian, mythologist, religious scholar, linguist(she speaks, reads and writes several ancient and modern languages), and archeologist with moderate undergraduate experience in Archeology. Internet essayist John Kaminski describes her as "the ranking religious philosopher of our era".

The Kamanski quote exists only to further boost her image. The statement baotu spekaign more thna one language is not rlelay relevant, and the Omisison of the reason WHY she is claimed ot be " A Historian, Religiosu Shclar, Archeologist, and Lingust" is not preasent. ( Ys you say she speaks multiple languages. But no other explanaiton rellay eixts.)

It is entrley promotional.

The ommission of the fac thtat she hodls no trianign in any of these fields, and is only these thigns "By DIcitonary definition", the argument her supporters made her to forc the ridiculosu list in the encyclopidia int he firts place, is biased. Youd o nto want hte reader to know she hodls no degree and try to sway the readers opinion.

She has received rave reviews from readers across the spectrum, from those on the edge of doubt about their religons to those having some familiarity with the unhistorical nature of religon generally. Her books have become popular with avid "truth-seekers" from around the world, eliciting interest from the average person to the professional and academically trained thinkers.

THis entire paragrpah is promotional, and thus shoudl not be in the encyclopedia. It exosts only to firther her views.

It is also of import that it claim as a fact that religion is Ahistorical, which is not Wikipeidas palce.

It also seems not to be vrified form any known source, and is just a form of marketing.

The Omisison of the link to King David's website was doen soley for the sake of preservign her knoeldgable image. In the exchange, she filed ot rellay defend her views, and so it servs the interests of her legiosn to rmove it.

These are the problems.

As to the version I reverted to, no problems are even listed.

ZAROVE 01:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You made 3 revisions the first day you got off being banned then today, you have made 4 revisions. It seems you also don't care about wikipedia rules as well.

66.174.93.102 02:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 09:23 PM CST

-The "problems" are only problems for you Zarove. Do you even know the meaning of bias?! Everything is biased. Every little suggestion you have made or criticism is a bias. Jesus, I hope you don't expect me to point out the bias in the things you like in the article--the key is to balance out views, which is what you apparently DON'T WANT! So really, stop pretending you care about bias or FACTS!

Everything that is written there is a fact--even the negative reviews (who the heck cares about this silly King David email--you seem fixated on a silly peice of "alleged" private correspondence reputed to some nobody with a nuiscance objective)--it could have been you for Christ's sake! The Price, Holden, and Licona remarks (website operators unconfirmed to have any credibility in the field of mythology or religon) are negative biases.

Only Price could have the dubious distinction of being a "critic", because he at least is published and a known figure of some credibility. Holden is an obvious "huckster" (and so is he a mainstream expert, or is it Licona or any self-proclaimed expert on Christianity from the innumerable churches, sects, scientist-archeologists and Doctors of Religon, including those who have recanted the literal historical nonsense they came to see was inherent in religon?!). Take all these "biases" or "criticisms" away if BIAS is your big concern. Take all the "favoritisms" away if you are concerned about "BIAS". These BIASES were removed--both pros and cons were pared down considerably and you rejected that. Remove them all together and you would still object! What you want is heavily negative bias--get over it!

- her work is based on poor scholarship, with little primary research and heavy reliance on outdated or fringe sources, and shows ignorance of the topics on which she writes, in particular of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions** Is this not demotional (a detractive statement of opinion)?

- considers her work so poor as to constitute an embarrassment to the case. I cringed... Writing at second hand, she is too quick to state as bald-faced fact what turn out to be, once one chases down her sources, either wild speculations or complex inferences from a chain of complicated data open to many interpretations. And sometimes she swallows their fanciful etymologies like so many shiny goldfish at a frat party. Worse yet, she just goofs here and there and betrays a lack of ability to weigh evidential claims... The Christ Conspiracy is a random bag of (mainly recycled) eccentricities, some few of them worth considering, most dangerously shaky, many outright looney** How about this--is it not demotional opinion of the worst kind, with absolutely no proof to those words presented?

- His article includes correspondence with several scholars who noted inaccuracies in her work, in one case writing that she should take a Religion 101 class** I suppose this isn't demotional/detractive statements of opinion without any presentation of fact of where she is innaccurate or proof that "those scholars" are right and she is totally ignorant? Now I know you will reject this logical revelation of BIAS, INNUENDO, DEMEANING CHARACTER ASSASSINATION as non-NPOV as you claim the bias stated in her favour is! Is this encyclopedic?!!

I suspect, rather I know you that YOU are BIASED (and the archives show that you are a malicious "encyclopedic" detractor; you have been shown to have deliberately tried to pawn off a misrepresentation (lieing) of her attendance at an educational institute she never claimed to have been at! Why would you do that? Why would you, on this talk page, bring up all kinds of personal matters (innaccurate and slanderous at that), which have absolutely no bearing on her persona as a learned author of religous/mythology?! You deserve no respect at all as an expert on proper editing, as a source of information on the article itself, on Acharya's life, or what is or is not NPOV, because your credibility as anyone can read throughout these archives is WORTHLESS.

Now that is just an obvious fact, aside from having any discussion with you on any part of this co-operative editing being an exercise in analistic futility! There has got to be someone else in here beside Lobo with whom an intelligent and reasonable discussion on the direction this page should take.--70.73.15.88 08:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

Now.

-The "problems" are only problems for you Zarove. Do you even know the meaning of bias?!

Acutlaly their problems for everyone excpt htose who agree with Acharya S.

Everything is biased.

Not everything.

Every little suggestion you have made or criticism is a bias.

Not really.

Jesus, I hope you don't expect me to point out the bias in the things you like in the article--the key is to balance out views, which is what you apparently DON'T WANT! So really, stop pretending you care about bias or FACTS!

You can't show prblems withthe current artucle.

Thats why you don't. If yo did it woud be trumpet upnonsence liek when you said callign her an "American" was an atack on her...

Everything that is written there is a fact--

No its not. Its not a fact that "Nonetheless she has much origional research." It basiclaly eixsts to invalidate the Critism that she has no roigional research and doesnt balance the arilce so much as it serves to dismiss the Critisism.

The Rave Reviews section is not a factual paragrpah, and veen states religion is AHistorical, whih is a POV Comment, not a fact.

I need not go on really.

even the negative reviews (who the heck cares about this silly King David email--you seem fixated on a silly peice of "alleged" private correspondence reputed to some nobody with a nuiscance objective)--it could have been you for Christ's sake! The Price, Holden, and Licona remarks (website operators unconfirmed to have any credibility in the field of mythology or religon) are negative biases.

Robert Price, of Jesus Seminar, has no credibility in the feild of rleigion???

Licona I belive is workign for a degree int he feild.

Even if they do not hwoever, Dorothy Murdocks own credentuals arent int he feild of rleigiosu studies, but clasical studies.

So it's equivolent.

Only Price could have the dubious distinction of being a "critic", because he at least is published and a known figure of some credibility.

Holding also has credibility in many cirtucles and is often referenced.

Holden is an obvious "huckster" (and so is he a mainstream expert, or is it Licona or any self-proclaimed expert on Christianity from the innumerable churches, sects, scientist-archeologists and Doctors of Religon, including those who have recanted the literal historical nonsense they came to see was inherent in religon?!).

This is POV opinion and not a fact.

Take all these "biases" or "criticisms" away if BIAS is your big concern. Take all the "favoritisms" away if you are concerned about "BIAS". These BIASES were removed--both pros and cons were pared down considerably and you rejected that. Remove them all together and you would still object! What you want is heavily negative bias--get over it!

See this is what I mean. You guys hate Tekton Ministires, so its an obviosu Huskcter site.

Any Christain Critism of her work will be seen as Bias and so shoudl not be int he artilce. Unfortunarly she critises CHristaintiy, so the CHristain side of the story will obviosuly be needed ot balance this out. You relaly don't expect anone to take seriously the comment that someone can bash Christainity, and only a NonChristain can then refute her work, do you?

Its obvious that you simply want to promote her work, andnot balance the aritlce.

her work is based on poor scholarship, with little primary research and heavy reliance on outdated or fringe sources, and shows ignorance of the topics on which she writes, in particular of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions** Is this not demotional (a detractive statement of opinion)?

You omit the first art of this comment, whioch states that her Critics claim this. Not WIkipedia. And its verifiable that her Crictics make htis claim. We also state that she claims that the CHristain Faith is basd on Plagerised Myth.

The difference is, Wikipedia is not syaing this statement is true, it says that the Criics say it. Just liek it doesnt say JEuss was a Plageised Pagan Myth. it states that Acharya S says he is.

considers her work so poor as to constitute an embarrassment to the case. I cringed... Writing at second hand, she is too quick to state as bald-faced fact what turn out to be, once one chases down her sources, either wild speculations or complex inferences from a chain of complicated data open to many interpretations. And sometimes she swallows their fanciful etymologies like so many shiny goldfish at a frat party. Worse yet, she just goofs here and there and betrays a lack of ability to weigh evidential claims... The Christ Conspiracy is a random bag of (mainly recycled) eccentricities, some few of them worth considering, most dangerously shaky, many outright looney** How about this--is it not demotional opinion of the worst kind, with absolutely no proof to those words presented?

The firts problem with the above is the Hypocracy of it. Origionally an Encapusualted Critisim section wa sincluded. Becuase it was not a series of direct quotatiosn form her critics you complaiend and said that it was WIkipeida makign the claims. THen someone added lengthy quote blocs fromt he Critics. Now yor complaining about this.

Wikipeida has stated as a matter of coruse who said hte above, and mentioned thta he was a Critic.

Your problem withthe above is groundless.

His article includes correspondence with several scholars who noted inaccuracies in her work, in one case writing that she should take a Religion 101 class** I suppose this isn't demotional/detractive statements of opinion without any presentation of fact of where she is innaccurate or proof that "those scholars" are right and she is totally ignorant?

See above. You are the ones who demanded we use quotes and not a simple encapsulation of what her Critics claim. Now you want to rmeove the wuotes on dubous grounds. Wikipeda states the sourc of the informaiton, and os the problem is mooted.

Now I know you will reject this logical revelation of BIAS, INNUENDO, DEMEANING CHARACTER ASSASSINATION as non-NPOV as you claim the bias stated in her favour is! Is this encyclopedic?!!

Yes, because the above are quotes from her critics, and not IWkipeidas own claims. Your sttaement "Nevertheless her work contians much origional research, especially in the Suns of God" is wikipedia saying " Her critics say this but are wrong." It snot Wikipeidas palce to settle the matter.

Again, you are the one who wanted the quotatiosn used.

I suspect, rather I know you that YOU are BIASED (and the archives show that you are a malicious "encyclopedic" detractor; you have been shown to have deliberately tried to pawn off a misrepresentation (lieing) of her attendance at an educational institute she never claimed to have been at!

Actually this is yet anothe rlie. I said I had no proof of hte claim f her being int he Am School, other than her website. When documentation was given, by her, I then allowed the comment. You blow it out of proportion.

Why would you do that? Why would you, on this talk page, bring up all kinds of personal matters (innaccurate and slanderous at that), which have absolutely no bearing on her persona as a learned author of religous/mythology?!

Actually I threatened to post an article I wrote ont he web, an use it as a source, sicne she, and her disiples, complaiend abuth the sources alreayd avaialbel online. Noen of hat I said was slanderous. She did on occasion make poor grades,and was not seen as overly mpressive in hr academic work. She was an average student overall. ANd her personal life came to my attention by various peopel who had knwon her. ( Not her ex lover though.) And the records that appeared as part of a standard news article. At the time sh was unavailabel or comment hwoever or I'd have spoken to her as well.

This is not the same as slander.

You deserve no respect at all as an expert on proper editing, as a source of information on the article itself, on Acharya's life, or what is or is not NPOV, because your credibility as anyone can read throughout these archives is WORTHLESS.

This is just more Ad Hom. You have no credibiloty since you ar ejust here to slant the aritlce. The problems Ive had on wikipeida owe to you gusy trashign me and distirtign everyhtign I said. James even went so far as to create a huge list of evidence agaisnt me, noen of which save one parabraph even dealign withthe issue at hand and most of whihc beign things I siad he disagrees with but that arent rlelay violatiosn fo any rule. All to make me look bad. THen he threatened to use my past website expeiurnces agisnt me. Naturllay usign the same smear tactics he accused me of. You guys tries too too. Withthe OLD stalkers on your side you coudl rellay make me look bad. You woidl ignroe any posiitve claism to me and focs on the negative, and forget that they all stem formt he same soruce and just claim Im a monster.

Really, this is so much Hokum.

You have yet to even address the problems I raised withthe Aritlce. You Obfuciate the matter by simply attacign mne, my credibility, and sentences that you yourself insiste dupon having in the article int he firts palce. But you didnt addrss the problems I raised.

ZAROVE 17:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

vANDAL CLAUSE

You made 3 revisions the first day you got off being banned then today, you have made 4 revisions. It seems you also don't care about wikipedia rules as well.

Actually I reported htis page as vandalised. Vandalism maybe reveted. I pointe dout that the "Edit warrign" which got me banned was juist a ruse. I also poitne dout the sentneces you gsy keep inscertignm, the changes, and ommisisons.

Removal of informaiton and inscertion of diliberate Biased informaiton is Vandalsim, which may be reverted.

ZAROVE 18:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

By that definition, what you are doing qualifies as the same thing and thus must be reverted to a more neutral version.

12.203.133.224 00:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 07:03 PM CST

No it doesnt.

The current vrsion does not make any attemot to promote her works, or to attack her works. Neither does it attmeot to ttack her.

On the other hand, it does present critism. And itpresents her ideas.

It also presents her life as best is known currently without rleying on informaitn from other osruces than the internet and her mailign list.

So, how is this Vandalism? Simpy because you disagree withthe content.

ZAROVE 00:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

But then, all you are doing is disagreeing with the content. You have not shown any criticism, you have shown what those detractors say in favor of their own belief systems. What you seek in the article is clearly what can show her and her books in a negative light. And if thatr must be, so be it biut inorder to remain neutral, you must also show the other end of the scale which you consistenly filter out claiming it shows her in a good light.

12.203.133.224 00:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 07:11 PM CST

No.

But then, all you are doing is disagreeing with the content.

THis is Patently false. I disagree with slantign the Article to read in her favour. I also disagree with tellign promotional paragrpahs beign added.I disagree with her critics beign called "Detractors" and beign dismissed as wrong, whc is a vlaue call not to be include din Wikipedia.

You have not shown any criticism, you have shown what those detractors say in favor of their own belief systems.

That is Critiism. And agauin, I prefered the encapsulated Critism section. And I didnt compose either Critism seciton. THe Critics are Critics, not detractors. Likewise, we cannot simply say "They say that she has no origional research, nevertheless she does" without it bign a clear bias in her favour.

What you seek in the article is clearly what can show her and her books in a negative light.

Actually no. I was the one who included the enture "Astro-Theology" list. It was shaved by another editor.

However, Critisim, and accurate protrayal of the owman herself, are paramount to me.

You cnanot show whats acutlaly wrogn withthe curent version, you can just call it Vandalsim. I've shown two or three times now whats wrong wiht your "Imprived, Neutral" version. Its nto Neutral, it is clealry writtne in her favour.

And if thatr must be, so be it biut inorder to remain neutral, you must also show the other end of the scale which you consistenly filter out claiming it shows her in a good light.

We do this. We tell what she beleives, then tell what Critics say. THis is normal for WIkipedia. Itsnot normal for Wikipedia to then say the Critics are wrong, or to call them "Detractors". Its also not nromal fo Wikipeida to tlak about rave reivws and avid truth seekers form all walks of life loving her book. Put that in an ad, not here.

And it is normal for WIkipedia to put in her real credentials if the claism she makes abotu her stand. You and James said by DIcitonary definition she is these htigns, why not allow htis argument in?

Omisison fo the link to King David is also removal of informaiton and Vandalism.

ZAROVE 00:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

No, this is not false... what you do is slant the article negatively. You remove anything you think might show it in a positive light and claim that this constitutes neutral ground. To be truly neutral, it must be neither positive nor negative but since you cannot do this, the next level is to balance the views by show a negative balanced by showing a positive view. A detractor reduces the value, importance, or quality of something.where a critic tends to make harsh or carping judgments, they are a faultfinders Either way, what you present of them holds them an unsavory light. They are duty bound to refute and deny the premises of her books, that is the meaning of an apologist.

All you have to read is what you post... it is amply clear what you are doing. My saying so means nothing compared to that.

She is an author but beyond that, she is a person and what you have stated you would have posted is not what you now claim. I merely use your own logic and in applying it to the other side to the coin... they are the same thing by the definition and logic you apply. You are not telling what she believes, you do not have any idea of that. She is reporting what she has observed and what you are doing is denying that. You say this is normal on Wikipedia and yet, you consistently violate its rules. You do not determine them and your interpretation of them to fit your goals is also not what Wikipedia is about either. If you show a critic having a negative review then it is apropo to show a critic in favor. That is being fair.

We have gone over and over on this credentiual thing and it is a major hanguyp you have there... in the first place, you are the one designating them as credentials. What she demonstrates is life experiences that provide evidence or testimonials that earned her the right to credit, confidence, and authority. Argue all you want, but provide evidence , not you feelings about them. I completely destroyed any creditibility on the King David email. You have no idea what all was included or excluded in this private email... and furter, it falls into the Wikipedia rule of verifiability. Drop it, it's a lost cause.

12.203.133.224 01:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC) -el LOBO 08:23 PM CST

It has come to my attention that nearly all of February's history on the article is missing. In that history I posted what a straight forward article which complies with a dozen other Wikipedia articles posted on other authors who have writen books would look like... This is what I think the article should look like.

Acharya S

Acharya S is the pen name of D. Murdock who has authored two books and owns a website called "Truth be Known". She contends that religion is founded in earlier myth and that the characters depicted in Christianity are the result of the plagiarizing of those myths to unify the Roman State.

Contents [hide]

  * 1 Books
  * 2 Critical and non critical external links

Books

Her 1999 book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold and a follow-up book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, discusses her observations further. Suns of God is addresses criticisms of her former book and expands teh topic measurably. In it, she comments on the Hindu story of the life of Krishna, as well as the life of Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama). She claims parallels to the life of Jesus, presenting evidence that the story of Jesus was written based on existing myth and not the life of a real man.

Acharya describes the historical existence of Jesus Christ and the New Testament as a work of mythic fiction with an historical setting. The story of Christ, she maintains, is actually a retelling of various pagan myths, all of which represent "astro-theology" or the story of the Sun. She asserts that the pagans understood these stories to be myths but that Christians obliterated evidence to the contrary through religious persecution, and thorugh the destruction and control of literature, such as the Library of Alexandria, once they attained control of the Roman Empire. [1]

This purportedly led to widespread illiteracy in the ancient world and ensured that the mythical nature of Christ's story was lost in the Dark Ages. Scholars of other sects continued to oppose the historicizing of a mythological figure. Where no evidence exists, Acharya claims that this is because the arguments were destroyed by Christians. However, Christians preserved these contentions, she states, through their own refutations. [2] [3]

Acharya compares Jesus' history to that of other gods—such as Mithra, Horus, Adonis, Krishna, Quetzalcoatl, Odin—claiming that the similarities result from a common source, the myth of the sun-god. In "The Christ Conspiracy" she describes this theory, claiming allegorical parallels between the story of Christ, and the story of the solar deity: "The sun 'dies' for three days at the winter solstice, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th", and "The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 [degrees]; hence, the 'Sun of God' begins his ministry at 'age' 30."

Background

Acharya S is a historian, mythologist, religious scholar, linguist, archeologist who has a Bachelor of Liberal Arts degree in Classics, Greek Civilization, from Franklin and Marshall College, and attended the American School of Classical Studies at Athens, Greece. She is a fellow of the Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion. She been interviewed on a variety of radio stations.

Critical and non critical external links

  * Truth be Known (Acharya S's website)
  * The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ by Acharya S
  * Interview with Acharya S in Paranoia Magazine
  * Earl Doherty reviews The Christ Conspiracy, see Earl Doherty
  * Robert Price reviews The Christ Conspiracy
  * Paranoia Magazine review of Suns of God by Joan d'Arc
  * Review by Danny McNeal 
  * "A Refutation of Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy" by Mike Licona, and rebuttal
  * ebtx.com reviews The Christ Conspiracy
  * Tekton Apologetics Ministries reviews The Christ Conspiracy

Since getting this article deleted seems to be impossible, I would be interested to hear any objections to an article based on something like this.

66.174.79.232 10:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 05:19 AM CST

-Lobo--this is quite pared down an article and that is good! I have just a few suggestions. Instead of she "operates" a website, the words "owns" or "has" could be used (a friend suggested the connotations of "operate" almost imply something devious! lol!). In the same paragraph--"She contends that all religion"--the word "all" could be removed because it appears superfluous. Also, if you hadn't noticed, I inserted another review by Danny McNeal--perhaps it could stay? Otherwise, there is enough there for the Wiki reader to link with to familiarise themselves with her material thesis and the pros an cons of the subject. It may be down the road that some of these links will become redundant (as certain critics change their minds about the incendiary qualities of their reviews). --70.73.15.88 16:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC) toothfairy

I agree... and made the changes. I'll leave this for another day and then post it.

12.203.133.224 18:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 12:54 PM CST

If there is a problem with the current version, please discuss it here. Merely reverting the article only causes edit warring.

66.174.79.232 11:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 06:49 AM EST

The current version has stood on several occassions. It needs to be updated and brought more in line with other Wikipedia authors.

You say it is poorly formatted and disposes of significant text for no apparent reason... but that is not so. The format is little different than other Wikipedia articles on other authors... I modeled this version on Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis, Robert Frost, John Milton, George Bernard Shaw, Carl Sandburg, Ralph Waldo Emerson, James Thurber, Jane Austen etc. Besides, there is no rule that says that a category called "criticisms" has to be created. As far as "significant text"?... those texts can be found in the links provided.

"Under policy, biographical details should only be included if they can be checked in credible sources. In this case those are relatively scarce. There are difficulties even in inlcuding matters on the Acharya S website (this is mentioned on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons). It is quite legitimate to give an idea of the content of the books. But issues arising should clearly be treated on pages such as Jesus-myth. It should be obvious to all here, but Wikipedia articles are in no sense meant to come to any conclusions on contentious issues in the field of religion." Charles Matthews 16:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

66.174.79.227 16:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 11:21 AM CST

-Ok..Lobo--did you post this as a hint that the external critical links (including the reviews) could be removed, since they can be treated at Jesus-myth page as Charles suggested?? I have no problem with that. As a previous "editor" stated in spite of everything else, this is a bio, the subject matter just an introduction as to the reason the author is noted.

The subject matter (pros and cons) or contentions should be treated elsewhere ie. Jesus-myth page or some other religon page directly dealing with these matters. I think Acharya's own website link is enough on this page for the reader to pick up everything else that is already here. I have been to the Jesus-myth page but only cursorily some time ago, so I don't know at this posting what is there. I am not near anywhere near up to snuff on wiki policy, but I imagine internal links to other wiki sites dealing with the subject matter could be referenced here, as her materials should be included at those sites, where appropriate--that is if anyone is disposed to do it.

As Charles said, it is not up to Wikipedia to settle the contentions of the subject but merely to lay them out for the reader to have access and decide for themselves--that is good sense that I have always held to. What is your thoughts on this?--70.73.15.88 19:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

Actually, I posted this to point out that this article exists because of the books. It is not a biography. Any contentions against the theme, data or ideas of the books should be taken up in a different forum. It should tell what the books are about as simply and succinctly as possible and the bio should merely tell who the author with a touch of background just like other wikipedia articles on authors. If there is a concern as to book reviews being too much, it would necessarily then mean that the Pierce, Licona and Holding comments would be removed as that is what they are... book reviews.

66.174.92.165 07:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 02:22 AM CST

- I see your point Lobo. Just a mention of the Books (with a pared-down description of them?) and reviews removed. What would your version look like?--70.73.15.88 09:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC) toothfairy

I'm afraid it doesn't matter as I have been effectively blocked from making any changes to the article by an Administrator who has their own favorite version they wish to enforce. Any post I make is automatically reverted by an Admin named SWATJester. So far, Wikipedia admin's seem to do as they please. A concensus to remove the article is achieved and they decide to keep it, we use the talk pages to inform and call for objections and when we make those changes, they throw them out in favor of what they prefer. What's the use? There is no way any justice will be done on this article on Wikipedia. Fairness, neutrality, objectivity, common sense, logic, reason and decency are held in contempt by those who are responsible for administrating how it is supposedly run.

Quick delete this atrocity of an article... it can never be made to be free of those who simply cannot keep from denying its premise.

66.174.93.103 04:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 11:53 PM CST

Per your request... the reviews can be left off or not but suggest that they are so argumentative that keeping them is of little benefit.

Acharya S

Contents [hide]

Her 1999 book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold and a follow-up book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, discusses her observations further. Suns of God addresses criticisms of her former book and expands the topic measurably. In it, she comments on the Hindu story of the life of Krishna, as well as the life of Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama). She claims parallels to the life of Jesus, presenting evidence that the story of Jesus was written based on existing myth and not the life of a real man.

Acharya describes the historical existence of Jesus Christ and the New Testament as a work of mythic fiction with an historical setting. Widespread illiteracy in the ancient world ensured that the mythical nature of Christ's story was lost in the Dark Ages.

Main site.

Truth be Known (Acharya S's website)

General topics and interviews.

Interview with Acharya S in Paranoia Magazine Paranoia Magazine review of Suns of God by Joan d'Arc

Reviews.

Review by Danny McNeal Earl Doherty reviews The Christ Conspiracy, see Earl Doherty Robert Price reviews The Christ Conspiracy "A Refutation of Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy" by Mike Licona ebtx.com reviews The Christ Conspiracy Tekton Apologetics Ministries reviews The Christ Conspiracy Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S" Category: Religious philosophy and doctrine

12.203.133.224 19:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 02:43 PM CST

The demand for respect by color of politic, religion or authority that is unearned breeds contempt. The travesty that is this article fills the talk pages where authority has chosen sides. Is there no honorable administrator left that will enforce the 3 to 2 decision to delete this article?

66.174.79.233 06:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 01:42 AM CST

Changes

I'd like to see the article revamped as well. Perhaps we could go over it section by section? Unfortunately I don't have as much time as I'd like, so it may be a fairly slow process. Regarding the Books section:

Her 1999 book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, is a development of part of her website. A follow-up book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, discusses her views further. It is largely written to address criticisms of her former book. In it, she comments on the Hindu story of the life of Krishna, as well as the life of Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama). She claims parallels to the life of Jesus, presenting this as evidence that the story of Jesus was written based on existing stories, and not the life of a real man.

I have some problems with the above. Is the first book really a "development of part of her website"? Was the second book written "largely to address criticisms of her former book"?

Also, a book titled "Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled" will obviously contain comments on the life of Krishna and Buddha. The next line, "She claims parallels..." is misleading as well. Suns of God is better described as an "exploration of the origin and meaning of the world's religions and popular gods".

For consideration, here are the authors own descriptions of Suns of God and The Christ Conspiracy.

^^James^^ 00:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Done.

12.203.133.199 20:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 03:04 PM CST

Regards AJA changes. Do you not see Charles and you other Admin's? This subject cannot be dealt with objectively. Believers simply have to refute or deny the observations presented in the books lest their beliefs be subject to doubt. They are driven to "blackwash" them in an effort to hold their beliefs superior to anything that might challenge them. Delete this abomination to fact, fairness, and reason.

66.174.92.167 06:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 01:27 AM CST

Well, I do see, and you are very clearly pushing a point of view. This is a serious offence against Wikipedia policy. Please be absolutely clear on this. This article must conform to Wikipedia's policy on NPOV; as it must conform also to the policies on sourcing and verifiability. It must also conform to guidelines on biography of living people. That is three criteria to meet. I intend to continue to work towards acceptability of this article on each of those fronts. Charles Matthews 21:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

How 'bout something like below?

Her 1999 book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, is a development and expansion of her essay The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ. Her follow up book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, examines the stories of Krishna, Buddha and Christ, discussing their similarities, their origins and their meaning.

^^James^^ 18:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Two stupid paragraphs

There's no purpose to including the personal invective against Holding, but Acharya and her groupies believe that everyone who disagrees must do so from malice against our ranking religious philosopher. I guess we must be jealous.

There's no point to including the second quote from Price except to try to prove your larger argument. But it's off-topic, and Price is misleading or ignorant. A.J.A. 20:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

If Holding's invective can be quoted then countering with a like invective is just as legitimate.

If there is no point in a second quote by Price then it would be just as valid to replace the first quote with the second. Perhaps, the way to reconcile this is remove both. Neither is off topic unless you consider the whole criticism category as a means to prove your larger argument.

12.203.133.199 21:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 04:15 PM CST

Holding wasn't quoted. There's one link and that's it. A link to her reply would be fine. What was added isn't.

There's no point to quoting that particular paragraph at all, either as the second or only paragraph. Or do you think "Criticisms" should only include endorsements? Wait, of course you do. Anything else is believers helplessly driven to...

It has nothing to do with Acharya to quote somebody accusing Rabbis of conspiring to ~~dominate the world through international finance~~ make everyone think the ancient Hebrews were monotheist. (They did a really poor job, considering that the Book of Ezekiel is still in the Bible.) A.J.A. 21:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The simplest remedy is to delete any such comments and refer the reader to book review links provided.

The books and the web site speak for themselves. We do not have to do anything more than provide links that cover both pro and con and then let the reader judge for themselves. I see no reason to propound on this subject here unless you have an ulterior motive for doing so.

12.203.133.199 23:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 06:32 PMK CST

Dark mutters about ulterior motives aside, my motive is a reasonably complete and on-topic article. You don't want that. Anything else, but not what Wikipedia exists to create. You'd rather have the article deleted than have even the minute risk a criticism might be neutrally presented, but short of that you'll add in whole paragraphs that have little to do with Acharya and embittered complaints about critics and the huge variety of blatently POV statements you and your fellow groupies have included. A.J.A. 23:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Finger pointing, blame casting and name calling aside... I have listed numerous Wikipedia articles (Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis, Robert Frost, John Milton, George Bernard Shaw, Carl Sandburg, Ralph Waldo Emerson, James Thurber, Jane Austen etc) on other authors and their works, none of which have received the vitriole this article assumes to be necessary to create an article about a pair of books. Your neutrality, it would seem, deems the dark side of negativity as the norm... and would have any positive aspect nullified to preserve itself. Much like the belief system that spawned such thinking in the first place, I would guess. As for groupies... do understand that the pot calling the kettle black, of necessity, speaks with experience.

12.203.133.199 00:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 07:25 PM CSt

The guy who keeps taking good content out and repeatedly calls for the article to be deleted accusing someone else of trying to nullify aspects. And then writes about the pot calling the kettle black. Okay... A.J.A. 00:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

That is a judgement call... so, as for what is deemed as "good content" this is relative to what you use as your criteria. Bring that up here and argue the merits of your judgement and let's see how it fares. I have sought, on the other hand, to preserve the content by providing links for those who wish to explore those aspects according to thier own inclinations. Let them judge for themselves instead of endeavoring to intercede and color what you think should be what they think.

12.203.133.199 00:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 07:38 PM CST

Not all criteria are equal. Yours, for example, are intentionally anti-knowledge. After all, some knowledge might reflect badly on Acharya and that might lead to... belief! Egads! Better delete it. And then claim to preserving the content you're trying to remove. If you'd gotten your way, there'd be no links because there'd be no article. But you'd like credit for trying to put the information you can't hide entirely behind links? A.J.A. 00:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

With that logic, any positives would be equally dealt with... no? I am anything but anti-knowledge. I would have both sides equally represented, but then, that would turn what is essentially an article into a debate platform, would it not? I say make the links available for both sides and let the chips fall where they may. It has been my endeavor to be more accommodating than any other. If you do not think so, do quote where it is not so. Nearly every move I have made has been discussed here in these pages. I seek no credit, no honor no glory... I am long past those petty states of mind. But your having thought it so bespeaks a mindset of its own.

12.203.133.199 01:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 08:16 PM CST

First boast about being more accomodating than any other (for trying to destroy anything that might in your mind be connected to "belief"). Then say "I seek no credit, no honor no glory..."

How self-denying! How noble! How like the soldier who knows he will be forgotten among all the other casualties, yet rushes into the fight to die for his country! A.J.A. 01:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

If putting ones life on the line for others denotes quality, courage, character, generosity, honor and purpose, then I will consider that a compliment. Thank you and for decrying that... thank you for demonstrating how the ignoble respond.

66.174.92.163 04:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 11:05 PM CST

-Lobo--I have to agree with you on the bio thing. I can see the "Claims about other religons"(that covers the claims she makes against all religon geneally, so it not neccessy as a separate section.)-- being removed as well the criticisms or reviews, except for the mentions that she does have critics or detractors (as well as complementary reviews). As you say these could be taken up on another created page or an existing one dealing with these conflicts of ideas.--70.73.15.88 04:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

If anybody has any objection to these suggestions, speak up and let's iron them out here.

66.174.79.227 05:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 12:08 PM CST

Some cleanup

I gather that this page has been the subject of some controversy.

I've taken a stab at cleaning up some of the style, formatting, and waffle wording. I've also poked and prodded at the 'Criticism' section, which is probably the most contentious bit of the article.

I'd appreciate it if people would, in their future edit warring, at least try not to break the formatting and cleanup that I've done. The 'Criticism' section is still probably in need of hacking up and constructive input is – as always – welcome.

I've trimmed the quote from Robert Price because I thought it was a bit much (in terms of both length and cruelty) for a biographical article. I think we're good with a reduced quotation and an appropriate link to the review; it preserves the argument made without being wordy or unprofessional in appearance. It's reproduced here if anyone needs it—but I really don't think we need the whole thing in the article, and I suspect we could probably get by with even less than I've kept.

I got a copy and read it for myself, and immediately I cringed... Writing at second hand, she is too quick to state as bald-faced fact what turn out to be, once one chases down her sources, either wild speculations or complex inferences from a chain of complicated data open to many interpretations. And sometimes she swallows their fanciful etymologies like so many shiny goldfish at a frat party. Worse yet, she just goofs here and there and betrays a lack of ability to weigh evidential claims... The Christ Conspiracy is a random bag of (mainly recycled) eccentricities, some few of them worth considering, most dangerously shaky, many outright looney. [1]

Also, I'm not sure if Mike Licona's point-conterpoint belongs here. Who the heck is he, anyway? As far as I can tell, he's just a PhD student, and lacks any other formal credentials...? If we want/need to discuss remarks by other religious scholars mentioned in Licona's writing, we ought to cite them by name.

One final thought about the 'criticism' section. Has there been a positive response from any legitimate scholars? An appropriate mention could be added. I don't like to portray a unanimous condemnation of the work unless that is actually the case.

Anyway, could people please avoid blind reverting? I've put a good chunk of effort into this; I'm trying to defuse the situation a bit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Summary of changes

The edits which I hope are uncontroversial are these changes: [2].

The major changes to the 'criticism' section are here: [3]. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Charles... does NPOV mean to establish a piece in an acceptable manner according a preconceived view? I thought neutral meant "representing views fairly and without bias. representing views fairly and without bias. This includes reader-facing templates, categories and portals". Does this also mean the attitudes of the administrators as well? Why the leeway with the 3RR rule?

To tenofalltrades... you have not cleaned anything up. You have taken a simple article aboiut two books and muddied the waters with all manner of superfluous junk talk that shows little research on your part. First, the "critics" quoted are not critics, they are detractors and the quotes used are from "online" book reviews and not published works such as verifiability would have us use. Price is the only scholar and he agrees with the premise of the books seeing as he has written several making the same claims.

Further, the quote used is not all he had to say about the Christ Conspiracy... he also said "Murdock presents us with a whole smorgasbord of “unorthodox” theories, some of them quite legitimate, such as a deconstruction of the Rabbinical apologetic that had us imagining for so long that ancient Israelite religion was monotheistic. It is now clear enough (see, e.g., Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel, 1987, or Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God, 1992) that the ancient Hebrews worshipped Yahweh amid a pantheon of gods. If that comes as shocking news to some, so be it. That is a reason neither to reject nor to relish the fact." If you see fit to only use the negative comment then you are guilty of slanting the piece with a biased view.

66.174.79.229 08:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC) 03:08 AM CST

We could probably stand to trim the bit about Apologetics' opinion, as it should be pretty obvious based on Murdock's writing what Christian Apologetics would have to say about it.

It's worth noting that online publications are certainly verifiable sources. They're readily accessible to anyone with an internet connection, and are probably easier to verify than many print sources. It's very easy to establish that our articles accurately represent what is said on another web site, and resources like the Internet Archive let one verify that the content hasn't been altered. Where online-only sources may fall down is in terms of factual correctness—are they reliable sources? That's a more complicated question, and it depends on the information that one seeks. Would I trust a random web site for factual information (what is the GDP of Bolivia?)? Well, not without corroboration. Can I trust that an individual's web site and signed, written articles thereon accurately represent that individual's words? That seems quite likely.

It is the latter case that applies here. These are Price's words posted on Price's website. It is not for us to assess whether or not he is correct; we are merely responsible for accurately representing what he – a scholar in the field – has said.

I think that we have accurately represented Price's opinion of Christ Conspiracy. To paraphrase a quote I've seen recycled too often for proper attribution of its source, "This book is good and original. Unfortunately, the good stuff isn't original, and the original stuff isn't good." Our comment about Price's evaluation indicates that he agrees with Murdock on some substantive points, but still finds her reasoning sloppy and her writing poor.

The point of citing Price here is not to get a read on the credibility of the Jesus-myth hypothesis in general. We already know that he believes it, and that he should be a decidedly sympathetic audience for Christ Conspiracy. (Any discussion about the credibility of the hypotheses advanced by Murdock belong in their respective articles anyway: Historicity of Jesus, Jesus-myth, etc.) Our sympathetic scholar nevertheless has an overwhelmingly negative opinion of Murdock's work. He's qualified to judge – certainly more so than we, unless anybody here is a theological scholar – and he's predisposed to agree with Murdock's opinions because they line up (to at least a rough first approximation) with his own. Despite those factors, he trashed Murdock's writing.

I would be pleased to see comments on Acharya S from other scholars; if any such references are available, they would be welcome here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's a review by Earl Doherty.

As to reliability... I think wiki policy is pretty clear. Licona and Holding do not pass the test. ^^James^^ 18:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

They're not actually cited for anything. It simply gives them as examples of critical responses. A.J.A. 19:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by 'reliability'? I've done a bit of poking around since yesterday, and it seems that both at least appear to be credible representatives of the Christian Apologetic school of thought—which is what we're really discussing here. Licona is reportedly the director of Apologetics & Interfaith Evangelism of the North American Mission Board. Holding seems to be a Apologetic of some note, having been recognized with a Wikipedia biography: James Patrick Holding.

While I don't necessarily buy their reasoning, at first blush I don't think that we have misrepresented the positions of Licona or Holding, nor have we erred in suggesting that their opinions are representative of Apologetics in general. Remember, we're not arbiters of absolute truth here – personally, I'm open to discussion of whether or not Jesus existed, and I don't have any ties to Christianity – rather our role is to accurately represent the different schools of thought regarding Murdock's work.

On Earl Doherty, he seems (again, at first blush) to be a qualified source of opinion. I don't have time to review his review in detail at the moment, but a statement of his opinion might well be appropriate here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Ignoring the question of whether the "apologetic school of thought" is credible in itself... Holdings particular brand of apologetics has been called depraved. His original article on Acharya S was called "S is for Stench". There's a difference between being a notable defender of the inerrancy of the bible and being a credible source for an encyclopedia.

As for Licona, his "review" is full of criticism by people who haven't read the subjects work! Is that fair? What about verifiability? Are the many personal conversations he cites considered good enough for wikipedia? My reading of wiki policy suggests caution be taken, especially in regard to biographies of living people. Here are some policy excerpts for your consideration:

In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight.WP:V

Self-published sources: Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. WP:V

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution and should probably not be used if the material is negative. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used...WP:LIVING

Any negative material about a living person that is not sourced to a reliable publication should be removed both from the article and its talk page. Restoring such material is a blockable offence.WP:LIVING Also see WP:RS

^^James^^ 04:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Email Price and ask him to comment on his review of Acharya and the Christ Conspiracy to see if he has had a change of heart...

12.203.133.199 18:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 01:41 PM CST

Er, you're more than welcome to do just that. Absent any disavowal by Price, I think we're safe to assume that he hasn't changed his opinion. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Apologetics is the defence of Christian doctrines... it is obligated to perform the duty, right, wrong or indifferent of justifying the orthodoxy of religion.

Form http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/apologetics we find "Today the term "apologist" is colloquially applied to groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies or denying certain events, even of crimes. Apologists are often characterized as being deceptive, or "whitewashing" their cause, primarily through omission of negative facts (selective perception) and exaggeration of positive ones, techniques of classical rhetoric. When used in this context, the term often has a pejorative meaning. The neutralized substitution of "spokesperson" for "apologist" in conversation conveys much the same sense of "partisan presenter with a weighted agenda," with less rhetorical freight."

As for Licona... his position is tainted by the fact that he has an imperative to refute and deny the premises of these books because he makes his living by preaching the opposite of them. Both Holding and Licona have no choice but to deny the books because they challenge their faith... after all, what else could they say? Price is in direct compitition of the books and he halso has a vested interest in subverting the sales of any book that might infringe on his money making books.

So, what it boils down to is to simply tell the reader that there are reviews, both pro and con, of these works and let them discover what most interests them on their own without endeavoring to color what they think by quotes from people who have vested interest one way or another. These sites that contain these reviews from which the quotes were drawn are not edited, not overseen by any peer and are self validating which makes anything they say just about as subjective as it gets.

Since you wish to quote Price... it behooves that you validate what he says. I have already refuted about 25 or so points Price made that were posted by crazyeddie months ago. They are in the archives if you care to look them up. What it appears to me is that this is a Johnny come lately parroting of what was found on the surface without knowing the real story behind this article... maybe I'm wrong, I welcome you to show it otherwise.

12.203.133.199 20:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 03:11 PM CST

I'm concerned that we may be talking past each other here. I agree wholeheartedly that Christian apologists are doctrinally compelled to try to refute these books. Their bias is absolutely clear. That's why we've linked to our article on Christian apologetics at their first mention—it allows readers of our article to know what they're dealing with. Nevertheless – taken with an appropriately-sized grain of salt – their critiques are quite thorough and make for a valuable counterpoint to Acharya S' writing. The fact is that Murdock's books have provoked a strong reaction from the apologists, and that reaction is worth mention.

If you can substantiate your claim that Price is trashing Christ Conspiracy out of selfish financial interest, I think that would be an excellent reason to qualify or remove mention of him from the article. (Heck, if there were news reports about some sort of scam or manipulation, that would be really interesting and possibly worthy of expanded discussion.) On very cursory inspection, Price's review seems to be a bit more nuanced and targeted in its criticism. The first paragraph describes a book on the same topic (Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle) as "masterful". I don't know why Price would be willing to plug Doherty's book and not Murdock's.

It's not my – or anyone here's – responsibility to fact-check Price. We are providing information about his comments on the book as well as his identity and credentials. Based on his credentials, he is a sound source for discussing this topic. Engaging in our own original research and evaluation of his claims isn't what we do as an encyclopedia. I'm not qualified to evaluate his claims, and short of demonstrating appropriate academic credentials, I suspect that no one else in this thread is either. As an encyclopedia, we attempt to report on the verifiable statements, opinions, and conclusions of experts; we are not in a position – as editors here – to debate the correctness of those statements. By all means, we should discuss rebuttals of Price's criticism made by other scholars. I'd like to see statements about Murdock's books from other properly-credentialed scholars, too. What we cannot do is engage in original research of our own.

I will readily admit that I haven't read all of the archives of this talk page. I took a stab at the last couple and found that I didn't have the stomach for it. A number of editors just kept taking shots at each other without any trace of civility. I gather that at least one of the editors involved was banned, and a number of other cautions were issued. Frankly, I'm rather hoping for a bit of a fresh start here. It would be nice to see a change in tone from the earlier discussions. I'd appreciate it if editors here could try to assume some good faith on my part; I know that this article has been the subject of edit wars in the past, and I'd like to see that put to rest. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello Ten! You sound like a reasonable person. Suggestions: If the review from Price is to be quoted in the article itself, why not a peice on a postive note from Earl Doherty--for balance?

I know you are new to the history of this page (and I am one of those who got spanked for reacting to gross behaviour and unreasonableness by the creator of this page). Just before you came in, a contentious contributor removed a review by Danny McNeal http://truthbeknown.com/suns_of_god_review.html and reinserted the "email exchange" which has been considered "un-wiki"-like: you will have to read it for yourself to understand why (as well as some of the history on the talk page to aquaint yourself with the lack of balance and contempt).

Since you are an admin., my question is who can be considered a viable reviewer--anyone, an internet writer, a publisher or just one who is a member in the field of religon and mythology?

Another suggestion: rather than a separate section on the author's views of "other religons", why not just incorporate whatever is considered acceptable to quote under one general heading. If one UNDERSTANDS the basic premise of the authors overall theme (outlined at the top of the page, it is that the basis of ALL religons, ancient and modern, are the result of MYTHS based upon astro-theological beliefs, not to be taken literally. ALL are the subject of critiquing for the unoriginality of their tales, as well as the "discerned-absurdities" of their ethics, philosophy, rules, unhistoricity etc.

The subject is very complex and wide-ranging--thus the selection of material which might potentially be "edited" into the page could be endless. That is why some of us have argued for keeping it as simple as possible and balanced as possible; when the edited material is acceptable under wiki policy for verifiability etc.

I noted your concern about "Licona's" status as a mere Phd. student, however, Holding has been considered by far the least sincere and credible source to quote as a member of the "apologetics"! This is the dilemna--who should be considered as credible and viable among the latter group as well?! Good luck and welcome Tenofalltrades!--70.73.15.88 02:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)toothfairy (aka. Skull)

Ten... I maintain that since the quotes are from book reviews, they should be listed and treated that way. The fact is, they are not published sources and are free to say whatever they wish. Their only restraint or oversight is themselves and this makes quoting them a dubious at best. I challenge that they are thorough... they rely on unsubstantiated accusations and do not represent evidentiary facts. In fact, they are little less than expressions of what they feel and do not represent logic or reason as well. They express themselves in terms that resort more to character assassination and personal attacks than they do anything else. Perhaps, in using Turkel's Tekton Ministries as some sort of reputable source of rebuttal, we should also post a disclaimer for thje reader to see jusat what they are being fed... http://members.aol.com/bbu85/hold.htm

I would think there would not be much need to substantiate the idea that Achary's books are in direct competition to Price's own works. After all, he mentions that fact in his critique of The Christ Conspiracy. To see a list of his works.... http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/#book Your own logic should be

able to understand the competitive nature of books sales. In that same paragraph he openly makes the a declaration of hostility in saying "Those of us who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. Even that supposedly most radical of all biblical critics, Rudolf Bultmann, dismissed the Christ Myth hypothesis as a fancy of diseased minds. And, beginning with George A. Wells, the modern advocates of the theory (including myself and Earl Doherty) have sought to distance ourselves from previous Mythicists"

He further mentions his own works in comparison "recently I was interviewed on local television on the subject of my book Deconstructing Jesus. The host recommended the book to viewers along with Earl Doherty’s masterful The Jesus Puzzle and Acharya S’s The Christ Conspiracy, a work utterly unknown to me. I got a copy and read it for myself, and immediately I cringed, realizing that skeptics and freethinkers might, as apparently the television host did, regard my book and The Christ Conspiracy as interchangeable polemical weapons" and reason to hold The Christ Conspiracy in askance.

I have striven to pare this article down to the essentials precisely because it controversial and illicites debate. I think it is far supperior to simply tell what the books are about with a brief bio along weith links to cover bothe the pro's and cons and let teh reader do thier own thing without attempting to influence them one way or another. Is this not a reasonable approach?

12.203.133.199 19:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 02:55 PM CST

I am reminded of this quote from the Robert Frost poem "the Mending Wall"

"He said it for himself. I see him there

Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top

In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.

He moves in darkness as it seems to me~

Not of woods only and the shade of trees.

He will not go behind his father's saying...

Quick delete this article... it will never be free from those who walk in darkness.

12.203.133.199 20:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 03:27 PM CST

It is beyond normal comprehension how someone can take a completely benign description of two books and call it POV when they replace it with such diatribe as this: "Critics have claimed her work is based on poor scholarship, with little primary research and heavy reliance on outdated or fringe sources, and shows ignorance of the topics on which she writes, in particular of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Not surprisingly, a number of Christian apologists have criticised or rebutted Acharya's work. James Patrick Holding has presented a list of criticisms of Christ Conspiracy." It would seem that nnsubstantiated, undocumented and unreferenced negative comments are not POV?

Prices comments have already been discredited but to put Holding in a proper light... let's quote him... "S is for Stench" This is more his true colors than the white washed version provided in the link listed in the article. http://web.archive.org/web/20030104114019/www.tektonics.org/JPH_SFS.html

Now just because there are those who agree with him, that doesn't render what he says as anything other than POV which seems to be the tactic of the anti-Acharyan's. Thjis article does not deserve to stayu on Wikipedia. Wikipedia should want it removed for all the Wikipedia tenets it constantly violates. Remove it and be done wioth it. It is fast becoming a poster child for all that is wqrong with Wikipedia.

12.203.133.199 00:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 07:43PM CST

This talk page has had a {{calm talk}} template added. Comments such as those calling for instant deletion, against policy, will themselves be deleted. Charles Matthews 15:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Explain why this result was deemed "no concensus"...

"The result of the debate was no consensus (I counted 3 deletes, 2 keeps, 2 non-votes, 2 uncounted comments). — FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 08:23, Dec. 18, 2005"

Is not a 3 to 2 a majority or concensus?

Since the regular avenue of deletion was ignored... what is left to do but to seek a reasonable and fair minded Admin willing to do the right thing?

Would you cite where calling for a speedy deletion is against "policy"?

I see several instances which would qualify this article for speedy deletion but chief among them, the subject of the article has requested it and

"Attack pages. Articles that serve no purpose but to disparage their subject"

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Deletion_guidelines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion

12.203.133.199 15:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 10:54 AM CST

-The page is starting to look fairer Tenofalltrades and James. Just one suggestion: The subtitle "Critical responses" should be changed if it is to include positive responses to in that section. Perhaps "Critiques" or Current critiques--the word critique, I believe conveys the idea of various degrees of observations from the critical to the positive. If someone can come up with something better for it, please do. Thankyou.--68.146.186.180 01:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

This page is starting to look fair? When there are 50 reverts in less than a week... one wonders but that absense is the same as condoning. To what purpose are these reverts allowed? The article is nothing but a petty nitpicking og deniers and supporters who simply must stand firm or allow the debate won by default. This piece fails on so many levels unless the end product of it is to show these works in a negative light so as to uphold a belief. What is the purpose of this piece? Why is it listed on Wikipedia? I think, if one will go back and read the very first introduction of it the explaination is self revealing. The reason for this article was laid down then and that premise has not changed to this very day and thus the necessity of refuting and debunking them. This article should be about the books just like any other author on Wikipedia and any debate about them should be taken up on a different forum.

12.203.133.199 20:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 03:17 PM CST

-Well I agree with you in a sense Lobo, but someone insists it remains as an article, so I seeking to find a decent balance in it. At least one person here repetitively insists on emphasizing the negative. This is definitely not a biography--but is for the original creator of this page and fellow thinkers, a peice for exorcising the author through her books. The latter should have their own page and you can bet the same things would go on there. I would back you in the request for deletion, but the process appears to be "wikified"--if you catch my drift. --68.146.186.180 20:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)toothfairy

What Acharya has acheived is beyond the scope of individual criticisms. She has made observations that cause the mind to question and this is an intolerable state of affairs for any belief system. Questions beg answers. Questions bring light to the darkness. What has been happening here is the result of an intollerance that has need to keep people from reading the books and making their own judgments. The simple act of recognizing that Christianity is a myth and just one among hundreds of myths is enough to send belief into a frenzy of fear and trembling. The fact that this article generates such controversy is more defeating to the cause of belief than deleting it ever could. The primary reason to delete it is because the author tires of its intrusion and the fact that it has tended to bring out fanatics who are beyond civility.

66.174.79.228 10:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC) -el Lobo 05:09 AM CST

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