Talk:Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands

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This article was nominated for deletion on 16 January 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Weasel words 2 Critique 3 Control of Administration Criticism 4 Maxgrin, your contribution 5 Your reply 6 Removing Wikia link 7 Revenue and sourcing 8 The money issue

[edit] Weasel words

The critique section should be re-worded to remove things like "Many however believe..." and "A prominent opinion...". More specific references should also be provided. This is an encyclopedia after all.

Anguis 04:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

This is funny, because it does not look like this article is part of an encyclopedia. It feels like its an advertisement to the MUD and its disgusting that almost any article that criticizes a commercial entity tends to be swarmed by affiliates/persons with monetary interests and the critique dumbed down and finally removed. If you had made an attempt to research the references provided you would have discovered plenty of evidence that backs the critique section.

In detail, it is not accidental that well known, respected MUD developers like Kawir (Godwars codebase), the carrion fields staff (Valg), Molly O'Hara (4dimensions mud game creator & designer) have repeatedly criticized Achaea and Iron Realms entertainment for their shoddy (to put it mildly) marketing techniques and advertising. In fact, the vast majority of the TopMudSites forum users despise Iron Realms entertainment and the behavior of its CEO, Matt Mihaly. Matt himself must be one of the best flame starters and downright socially disruptive persons ever.

For now, i have done the research for you and direct you to the following links:

How ethical is IRE ? Iron Realms Entertainment credits critique The meaning of free

In the links provided you will find posts by Achaea players that admit that those who pay are the knights and those who dont are the peasants. Moreover, since the major marketing point that Achaea uses to draw players is its PvP combat system, its interesting to read that Achaea players feel that "you don't stand a chance in PvP if you dont buy credits". I guess this refutes the counterargument currently present in the critique section (that you can advance without credits) and i'll have to ask for someone else to either remove it or correct it. Again it would be nice if this article was formatted like the Medievia one. The critique section should only contain the critique. Possible counterarguments should be in their own section, with valid references provided.

My point, present in the critique section, is that its theoretically possible to advance and compete without credits. This is pure theory. In practice, me, many respected MUD community members, many Achaea players posting in the aforementioned forums believe that its simply not possible to compete without paying. I want to see Maxgrin refute this although it is going to be hard for him. It is clear to me that he is affilliated with the MUD and it will be hard to accept anything he comes up with as 'objective'. I've come up with my references, i want to see the opposition doing so.

Finally, i would like to remind everyone that most of the critique versus Achaea and IRE comes from persons who don't have monetary interests versus Achaea (they are not commercial MUD operators). That is why i will readily provide their opinions and critique as objective. The counterarguments coming from the Achaea camp (Achaea operators or players who have heavily invested in credits using real money) simply do not hold the same weight and are the ones that should be taken with a grain of salt. It is scary that in a free encyclopedia, valid critique is attacked with ridiculus arguments by persons who have self-serving interests in a dumbed down, marketing-like article.

Some quotes attributed to Iron Realms CEO, mentioned in the forum postings:

"Never forget that everything we do is designed to get you to give us money"

"Players are so stupid and powerhungry that they'll pay anything for something that they think will give them an edge in the game. This concept is going to make me rich." 87.202.167.128 17:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I have read those forum posts. Those weren't quotes from the Iron Realms CEO, they were taken as examples from an admin in some other game. In addition, most of what they say on there are false accusations. Most of the people posting on there sound like they have never played the game. I wouldn't rely on those forum posts for a wikipedia article.

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I quickly went over the text, just and tried to remove the weasel words and this is what I came up with. It can be expanded a bit more, since I cut out a bit of it. Did I cut out too much of it? By the way, don't forget to sign your posts by adding ~~~~. Anguis 23:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

There is a controversy surrounding Achaea because of its claim of being free-to-play. As previously mentioned Achaea does not require payment in order for somebody to play. Members of the MUD community such as Richard Woolcock (creator of the GodWars codebase) and the staff of The Carrion Fields, however believe that the MUD is tailored for those who buy credits. While, as said earlier, it is theoretically possible for someone to buy credits from other players with in-game money, the sheer amount of time investment required in order to compete with someone that spends real money on the game makes this often unfeasible. The opposers of the theory however state that the credits only give minor advantages, unless purchased in large amounts.

IRE utilises clever marketing techniques in order to draw players. The belief is that the player will easily pay in order to become more powerful, once he or she is addicted to the MUD since it is marketed towards players that would pay for a competitive edge. There has been a number of complaints about this on Top Mud Sites, MudConnector and other community forums, such as How ethical is IRE ?, Iron Realms Entertainment credits critique and The meaning of free

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This is fine by me. The reader should understand that Achaea is not a "free mud" as often advertised and that the game is designed so as the company will make a profit by selling credits. 87.202.167.128 17:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

While the reader should definitely be aware that the game is designed so that the company (IRE) will make a profit, Achaea is still a "free to play" MUD, as it is advertised, in all but one very specific sense of that phrase. Please see the very first post in this thread: [1]. Perhaps the most convincing evidence of this is that the FTC agrees that Achaea is a free-to-play MUD. Legally, federally, and semantically, free. Lor 17:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It's kind of obvious that they're trying to get players to spend money. However, I can honestly say as a regular player that has NEVER bought credits that I get along fine. The critique section should definitely be there, but Achaea IS fine for free players. E946 07:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critique

Well, as long as it's based upon linked data, it's alright. We just don't need any "some people say" statements.

[edit] Control of Administration Criticism

Hi, I've removed this again as I don't think it's a notable and widespread issue that player's have with the game. While I appreciate that rules may have become more developed recently, I don't think they have become more inhibitive. The market channel example is one isolated thing, and I don't see evidence of 'dictatorial' policies the admin have implemented anywhere else.

Furthermore, as a long time player, I have seen people complain about the admin's rules for years - saying that every change made is bad/inhibitive. This isn't a recent thing, and has not recently become a more major issue. The development of the rules of the game has been and still is a steady and slow process, where every change is endlessly questioned and complained about. In other words, this is nothing new.

Having said this, if you have links to any sources that support your view (beyond someone complaining on the forums), then please provide them.

And finally, sorry for removing the passage before without giving a reason - my bad. =) Lor 13:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maxgrin, your contribution

Hi Maxgrin, I've removed the passage you contributed, that reads as follows

"A different aspect of the game has been raised by a large number of former and current players of Achaea, stating that the game has a potential to cause a severe form of addiction. Apart from the large sums of money the player has to spend in order to become successful in PvP combat, ranging up to 15 000 USD, the players tend to spend lengthy periods of time in the virtual universe. A large number of players have spent many years playing Achaea on a regular basis, therefore neglecting their real lives."

As an active player in Achaea, and an active poster on the forums, I can say that I have not heard this view expressed by 'large numbers of former and current players.' I am extremely scepticle that there are any significant number of people who would consider Achaea to cause a 'servere form of addiction.'

Furthermore, the idea that one needs to spend $15000 to become successful in PvP combat is entirely unfounded. I would like to see what evidence you have that 'large numbers of players spend many years playing Achaea on a regular basis, therefore neglecting their real lives.'

Please cite all of your sources before reincluding this in the article, or discuss this here. Thank you. --Lor 14:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your reply

Dear Lor,

with all due respects, one cannot prove the fact that someone spent 15000 USD without accessing his/her bank log files and as you can imagine, the banks do not make exceptions for the anxious Wikipedia.org users. If you have any evidence against the above noted fact, feel free to state it.

Furthermore, if you want hard facts, mail IRE for the average "active period time of play in hours divided by hours in-game, as stated in your STAT" (A digit whicht you will never see for obvious reasons). If you want a soft fact, recall when you've started with Achaea and calculate exactly what percentage of your time it has taken away. At this point, consider if the result is reasonable or if it applies to the category “being abnormally tolerant to and dependent on something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming”.

Last but not least, this sort of critique can only be solidly founded by an article from a magazine, as you'd probably prefer it, once somebody dies before the monitor or kills his partner after loosing a "very good item".

Best regards.

PS: I am not intending to waste my time on a war over a free encylopedia, so shall you sincerely and with total honesty towards yourself consider the entry as false or unfair towards the game, remove it and it'll never be posted here again. However, before you do so, make sure that you are in fact right.

I too don't want to waste time on an edit war, however I do want to maintain verifiability. Let me start by saying that it is not my job to verify your information for you, the burden of proof falls upon the accuser, as they say. Absence of contrary proof is not proof of the fact. Further, I don't feel that anything in your contribution is 'self evident'. Let's take it sentence by sentence:

First, you say that "A different aspect of the game has been raised by a large number of former and current players of Achaea, stating that the game has a potential to cause a severe form of addiction." If this is the case, it should be easy to find a source where these sentiments are expressed. I have not come across one, but if you find one, please cite it.

Next you mention the amount of money people spend on Achaea, ranging up to 15,000 USD. It is true that I cannot prove that no one has spent 15,000 USD on the game, nor do I intend to, I do however state that 15,000 dollars is ridiculously high amount when speaking of the money that people spend on Achaea, (and yes, I'm referring even to those people who DO spend considerable amounts of money on the game). Consider this, transing all skills, miniskills, and buying two of the best artifact swords you can get amounts to about (15750 + 4200)/6 + 3200 = 6525 credits = 1957 USD @ 30 cents a dollar. If you spend another 6525 credits on artifacts, that's still only 4000 USD. This doesn't include any in-game lessons or credits, any special deals you'd get for buying so many credits, etc, etc.

The only way one could conceivably spend 15,000 USD in Achaea is by changing classes multiple times, and purchasing many artifacts - and while I don't disagree that there may be one or two people who have done this, there is no verifiable evidence of the fact, nor how much they have spent. One wonders where you came up with this figure to begin with?

I disagree with your clause, "Apart from the large sums of money the player has to spend in order to become successful in PvP combat.." - this gives the false impression that players do have to spend large sums of money to become successful in PVP combat. Apart from the large number of successful players who engage in combat that have never spend a single dollar on the game, the vast majority of successful combat players spend only minor amounts of money buying lessons etc. I have no definitive proof of this, however as I said above, it is up to you to cite your sources for the information you wish to contribute, and in the absence of evidence from either of us, I'd prefer just not to mention this either way.

Finally, you say that "..the players tend to spend lengthy periods of time in the virtual universe. A large number of players have spent many years playing Achaea on a regular basis, therefore neglecting their real lives." As you yourself said, it may be possible to get some kind of 'average percentage of time spent playing' from IRE - or obtain evidence in support of this statement from some other source. Once again, that is for you to do, and is something you should do before the inclusion of this statement in the article.

In conclusion (bloody hell, this is turning into an essay ;_;), I am going to remove this passage from the article, because I feel that it is speculative enough to not be 'self-evident' in any way, it is specific enough that one should be able to find sources for the information, and there is nothing directly to the contrary of this in the article as it stands, so I don't feel that the article suffers in any way from the exclusion of this. However, if you find any information online that supports these facts, please cite them and reinclude the passage in the article. Thanks, --Lor 01:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I've got no time to write up essays for the sake of a Wikipedia article for a computer game. Even though your intention was different, the reply you've given outlines every aspect that the "Criticism" section could ever withhold. Feel free to re-read your reply and look at it from the perspective of somebody who has never heard about Achaea before. Thank you for your afford.::

Once again, please feel free to reinclude your original passage, no need to write an essay about the reasons you reinclude, just cite some sources, give some information about the evidence behind the criticisms. --Lor 16:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Wikia link

I am removing the Wikia external link with this guideline as my cause for action. There were only 3 edits at this backwater wiki in the past 3 weeks. -- JossBuckle Swami 22:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revenue and sourcing

I am aware that there is quite a bit of discussion about Achaea's revenue system within its player community. With that in mind, however, in the absence of more reliable material than forum posts, Wikipedia has to address the issue with the content that we have available. I understand that this issue is important to players of the game, but I do not see any way to distinguish the forum posts about this issue from forum posts at every pay-per-month MMORPG complaining that the system is unfair for one reason or another. Serpent's Choice 03:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The money issue

Greetings, all

It is true that Achaea is tailored to fit the people with the funds, so that they can make money to keep the game running. Aren't all corporations designed to make money? I know from experience that in playing the game, it is quite easy to make money ingame to purchase credits, and it does not take an excessive amount of time. Many of the character classes, Druid, Infernal, Paladin, Runewarden, Sylvan, Sentinel, and Shaman, have a class-based skill which enables them to make large sums of gold in game in just a few hours. Concoctions allows one to refill the vials of healing, mana, and anything else the adventurer might have, and many adventurers have dozens of these little bottles to be refilled at a time. Now, to get these money-making abilities, one does have to reach level 40, which actually isn't that hard. Having reached higher than that several times in just a few days of playing, with only around 2 to 3 hours of playing per night, I can testify to that effect. Bearface 00:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. The simple reality is that, yes, Iron Realms Inc. do wish to make money. They are not a not-for-profit organisation. How much this is reflected in their games depends on the player. It's a very subjective issue. Some players find it incredibly easy to get by in the game without spending any money, others find it quite difficult and feel they have to spend money. It depends partly on what you wish to do in the game, and partly on your style of play. Even certain fighters get by without buying credits, whether they get them through in-game money, or simply find other ways to do without them.

I don't think that Achaea is tailored to fit the people with the funds. The entire game world is open to you without paying money, even the artefacts could be obtained without spending anything. 'Tailoring' gives the impression that a large amount of effort has been put into satisfying one group (the credit-buying group) and I don't think that's the case. The entire game world, and all the artefacts are available to you without payment, it just takes longer.Lor 15:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)