Talk:Abu Bakr

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Contents

[edit] Archive

[edit] Archiving

I just spent a half-hour or so archiving the talk page for Umar. I see that this page needs archiving too. Could someone else do it? I'm swamped. Zora 23:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing all reference to Shi'a views

Blingpling arrived and edited out all references to Shi'a views, leaving only a Sunni view. I reverted. This is not acceptable. WP practice is to recognize all notable POVs and there are enough Shi'a to be notable. It makes the article more complicated, but that can't be helped. Zora 11:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I edited some grammar, language and deleted some portions that tried to show bias towards either of the major islamic sects, sunnism and shiasm. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum for publishing religious sectarian disputes.--Blingpling 05:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
(Moved here from top of page by Rich Farmbrough 13:52 26 February 2006 (UTC).)


Just focus on Enccyclopedia rather then Shai and sunni views. i will remove changes beacuse no other article then this have views life this.

Khalidkhoso 14:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secular Readers

I am not Muslim and I am ignorant of Islam.

Please respectfully present all sides of any controverial aspects so that I may learn from all and decide for myself.

When one suppresses another's view, one's own credibility is sacrificed.

[edit] Why?

"He was one of the last people anyone would have expected to convert to the faith preached by his kinsman Muhammad." Can someone clarify why this is so? Stoa 19:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC

Perhaps that needs to be expanded. According to Watt (Muhammad at Mecca, Muhammad at Medina, still the most detailed studies of Muhammad's life), most of the people who converted to Islam were "little people". Slaves, widows, young men of no standing. But Abu Bakr is said to have been a man of substance in the community.

I can see why you don't like the statement -- it needs to be expanded. I'm busy right now, but I'll try to do it later. Remind me. Or slog through Watt and do it yourself, if you'd like :) Zora 11:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] REQUEST TO CLARIFY THE POINTS MENTIONED BELOW

Assalam alay kum!

1)can i now why the article has been edited again although i have mentioned that the article is being edited.

2)And can i know why the sects i.e. ( sunni & shaia )are being mentioned reguarly ?

3) And if the answer is that it is a public page THEN has the author have information of all the 41 names mentioned in the main page and if the answer is NO than I kindly request you for the sake of the almigty stop the folowing.

Please note that i am not going to start the editing all the reaming names till i don`t get the reply

Wating desperately for your answer ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.254.62.74 (talk • contribs) 11:29, 21 April 2006.

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. I'm guessing that English is not your first language, and that things would go better if we could converse in YOUR language, but unless you speak French or Tongan, I'm of no use. Zora 11:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

My questions are very clear Regarding No.1) Although i have deleted the article and added a message that the ,page is under construction, today the same article has been uploaded.

2)There was really no Need of mentioning about the views of sects, because we are not intrested weather the reader is sunni or seia, this particular articles are for all man kind and there is no need to insert particular sects views or opinions. And our Aim is to spread peace and love for the Almight which our (shaikhs) did

3) This linkage / Chain /silsila is not the property of any one nor it belongs to any one . This are the names of that great people who sacrificed their entire life in the way of ALLAHA the almighty with out any intention or expectations. And hence any kind of disrespect cannot be tolerated. The Article which was not presented in respect- -ful manner and was totally misguiding people. And hence it has been deleted once again —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.254.62.74 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 21 April 2006.

  1. You have to take our word for the fact that your questions really weren't at all clear. They're now becoming a bit clearer.
  2. We don't allow editors simply to delete articles and take them over, forbidding other people to edit them. Nor do we allow editorial comments like "this page is under construction".
  3. Who is the "we" who are not interested? If you mean that you're not interested, that might well be true — but the article isn't written simply for you. Our aim is not to spread peace and religious beliefs — we're an encuclopædia, and our aim is to present the facts clearly.
  4. Your final point is still not very clear, but you seem to be demanding that we edit articles to your liking.
  5. If you continue to blank this article, you will be blocked from editing
  6. Please sign your comments, using four tildes (~~~~). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

After the last comments, I'm guessing that the anon is from a Sufi order that traces its silsila, chain of transmission, to Abu Bakr, and that the anon feels that his order's view of Abu Bakr is the correct one. Zora 19:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is designed to present the facts in an objective manner. Doing so involves stating all of the notable opinions on a subject, ESPECIALLY a religious subject. Opinions of sects are often the only viewpoints available in such cases, though Abu Bakr is fairly well documented in secular documents. Bakr definitely was the first caliph - and the fact that his succession caused the split between Sunni and Shi'a that has been a major issue for a large part of Muslim history is a very notable fact. While you're correct that Wikipedia isn't concerned with the sect of Islam which the reader follows - or whether the reader is a Muslim at all - the sects are part of "all man kind" and are worth mentioning. If you are part of a sect that isn't mentioned, you're welcome to add that your sect (so long as it is notable enough to talk about - that is, not just a small community mosque) has differing beliefs on Abu Bakr's life/succession to the caliphate/etc. I fail to see where we are being disrespectful towards the great figures of Islam. Rarr 00:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] references

Under the section titled "Death" there is a reference to (Age of Faith, Durant, p. 187). This book is not under the references though. If someone has the information, please add it formally to the references.

Also, if someone wants to take it on try to convert the references to the ref format. In the text add <ref>source</ref>, and then at the bottom below the "see also" section add ==Notes== <references />

That will make it much easier to follow references, and most pages are migrating over to that format. Cuñado - Talk 16:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Role at time of Muhammad's Death

Reza Aslan, in his book "No God but God. The origins, evolution and future of Islam" recounts a tradition (based, according to his own notes, on the early Muslim historian Abu Hisham) that, at the time of Muhammad's death, some people including the future Caliph Umar refused to accept that the Prophet was dead, believing that he had been taken to heaven "like Moses" (or Jesus according to Christians, Aslan doesn't add) and would return shortly. Abu Bakr is said to have put a stop to that (this is before he was chosen to be Caliph), saying "If anyone worships Muhammad, Muhammad is dead; if anyone worships God, God is alive, immortal". Does anyone agree that this is quite relevant - in that Islam could have taken a wholly different (and to me, much less appealing) direction if the opposite viewpoint, which has no followers in modern Islam today, had emerged as Islamic doctrine? -Lewis

[edit] Arabic spelling of Abu Bakr

I believe that the inclusion of the Arabic spelling of "Abu Bakr" ( ابو بكر ) would improve this article.


[edit] International consensus regarding the first Caliph of Islam

"International scholarly consensus lists him as the first Muslim Caliph." ... no comments, im not reverting this time... --Striver 00:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Did it anyway. AladinSE, There is not a consensus just because you wish it to be there. He is the caliph of Sunni Islam. Those who say that he is a caliph of ISLAM are either Sunnis or people who are ignorant of Shi'a views. --Striver 21:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
AladinES keeps insisting that since most westerners have been ignorant about Shi'a Islam and have not bothered to distinguish between Sunni and Shi'a Islam, thus writing "Caliph of Islam" instead of "Caliph of Sunni Islam", that this ignorance from non-Muslims should be prove conclusive that he is in fact the "Caliph of Islam". Non-sense. Lets not forget all other things they have been ignorant of. Remeber the term "muhammadan"? Maybe we need to rename Islam to Muhammadanism? --Striver 10:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Now is Truthpedia reverting. Shi'a still do not accept Abu Bakr as their caliph, no matter what Sunnis or some ignorantly formulated western says, so i am reverting the POV. --Striver 23:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, not a Shia propaganda website. I have given you multiple academic and journalistic sources illustrating that the international consensus is that Abu Bakr is listed and considered as the first Caliph of Islam. Shia reservations have been CLEARY DENOTED. You may NOT delete material that has been backed up by reliable sources just because of your highly partisan dogmatic crusade. Also, use proper descriptive section titles, do not insert my handle as a title.--AladdinSE 01:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please do not use any picture showing any Sahaba

It is aganist Islam to use Picture images for Sahaba. so i took it off. Khalidkhoso 14:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see my reply in the section below. Wikipedia is not written by Muslims for Muslims, and is not censored to protect anyone's "sensibilities". Zunaid©® 15:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why you are using shia and Sunni views?

Hello every one why in this article 2 views are shown, if this way then every article in Wikipedia should be shown with such way ,but i have not seen this so i will make changes after this if any one have any thing to say then say it.?waiting

Khalidkhoso 14:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Certainly when it comes to the Caliphate, which is the very reason for the Sunni/Shia split, it is essential to present the two views. Without such a discourse the article could and should rightly be considered incomplete. If there are other articles where the differing views are warranted then please add them, but don't try to present this article from a single viewpoint. It does a disservice to the reader. Having read over it again, the Shia view seems to be reduced to a couple of sentences and should perhaps be expanded to provide balance. Zunaid©® 15:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of 12 January 2007

I restored the depiction of Abu Bakr's death per WP:NOT censored. This is not an encyclopedia for Muslims by Muslims, thus the picture should not be removed on the grounds that it offends anyone's sensibilities (cf. cartoons controversy and its talk page for a similar situation). I've also commented out so long (but did not delete) the extremely long list of sources quoted for the "doors of the mosque" refutation. Such a long list is poor encyclopedic style and looks ugly in the article. Only the most prominent one or two sources should be chosen as examples and presented in the article. Zunaid©® 15:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I've cross-posted the following responses from User:Khalidkhoso here from my talk page: Zunaid©® 16:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Zunaid , u knw in Islam ,we are not allowed to use picture for any shahba karam(fallowers of Muhammad(PUBH)).i removed it why have u restored it ?if u allow this picture for any one shahbab (even in movies there faces are not shown.)then why r u using picture images for them.please look forward my request. Khalidkhoso 15:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

which article ,please lemme know i want to be part of it. (in many movies by iranian many Imam are shown with faces,if u use picture for any one them then it will be for all,u knw wat i am trying to say).please lemme know link to discuss it. Khalidkhoso 15:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

During Muhram Many Nasori(shia), show man on picture (telling every buddy that is Ali Bin Talib).if u use image for Hazart abu bakur (R.A) then any one can use that iamge for Hazart Ali. Khalidkhoso 15:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title "Siddiq"

'Siddiq' means 'believer', not 'truthful'. 'Truthful' would be 'Sadiq' or 'Sadouq'.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slackerlawstudent (talk • contribs).

the Encyclopedia of Islam says: "He was later known as al-Siddīq, the truthful, the upright, or the one who counts true ...", so both meanings are supported it seems. ITAQALLAH 21:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My friend, the title comes from the story of the Prophet's Night Journey to Jerusalem and then up through the Heavens. As Muhammad recounted the details of his journey, the Meccan pagans would repeatedly scoff and mock him, considering his story to be pure fancy. Abu Bakr, on the other hand, would only reply to each detail recounted by Muhammad about the Journey by saying "Sadaqt" ('you have spoken the truth'). Because Abu Bakr believed Muhammad's story when everyone else did not, Muhammad conferred upon him the title of "Siddiq", the Believer, or He of Great Faith.

Since you consider both meanings to be valid, I suggest including both in the article, which is what I have done (even though I personally believe the Encyclopedia of Islam is incorrect in this). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slackerlawstudent (talk • contribs).

i think i should complete the quote from EoI: "He was later known as al-Siddīq, the truthful, the upright, or the one who counts true; the last meaning is supported by the tradition that he alone immediately believed Muhammad's story of his night journey (isra)." the last rendering (which i highlighted in bold) basically means the one who believes, the one who confirms as true etc. so there is no conflict between what you are saying and what the EoI is saying. also, when you post on talk pages, please remember to sign using the four tildes ~~~~, which will then put your signature there. ITAQALLAH 15:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
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