Talk:Abu 'Afak

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THE STORY OF THE KILLING OF ABU AFAK IS A FORGERY HERE'S A GREAT ARTICLE THAT EXPOSES IT AS THE LIE IT IS:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm

Dear Canderson7,

Why is your version of abu afak superior to Mine?

and I have 2 questions for your so-called rebuttal

1. Who WAS abu afak?

2. What happened to him?

Please respond in kind or to abuafak@Yahoo.ie and/or post Your email to discuss it.

Thanks Wikipedia for democratically OPENING this disputed subject to 'Talk', I'm encouraged.

The "rebuttal" to Silas' Correct http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/abu-afak.htm is an attempt to discredit on technical grounds the references in [solely] Islamic literature. But being Just a smear, cannot deal with, or even make up another Narrative for who afak was and what his fate was. "You can run but you can't hide"

Thank you, abu afak/ abuafak@Yahoo.ie

The story is fraudulent, full explication is available here. These reports are passed around in Islamophobic circles to poison peoples' minds against Islam. Wikipedia should not become another soapbox for bigots to spread their hate. This article needs significant NPOV work to bring it in line with standards. --Alberuni 00:51, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1. you have biased source

2. it is up to you to make a coherent argument. posting another URL means nothing. URLs are for citing sources, they are not argument in and of themselves. The excerpts from the Sirat describe clearly what occured, and everything is referenced. Everything in this article is concrete historical fact. --Pename 02:06, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily make it true story just because it's found in Ibn Ishaq. Even Guillaume in the introduction of his English translation says that Ibn Ishaq collected all sorts of stories. Doesn't mean the stories are true, or that Ibn Ishaq believed them. Muslims don't accept many stories in Ibn Ishaq, such as Satanic Verses story which is clearly logically inconsistent. You obviously found this on anti-Islamic site, answering Islam, and being an anti-Islamic bigot that you are, posted it to wiki OneGuy 09:49, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If this hadith is recognized as sahih, than it is true from scholastic Muslim viewpoint. If it is not, a source has to be brought showing it (and I do not mean the pathetic bismikaallahuma site with death threats to Ali Sina, but a scholar source)

[edit] Crticism of the Story

The Killing of Abu 'Afak: Where is The Isnâd?

According to Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Ishâq, Abu 'Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who had abused the Prophet(P) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr to kill him. We do know that Ibn Ishâq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra, as well as Al-Waqîdî from whom Ibn Sa'd (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu 'Afak.

As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishâq or Al-Waqîdî must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnâd (i.e., chain of reporters)?

Unfortunately, references of the Sîrah do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnâd at all; neither Ibn Ishâq (or his disciple Ibn Hîsham) nor Al-Waqîdî (or his disciple Ibn Sa'd) had provided such a thing! In this case, the story is rated by hadîth scholars as "...of no basis", indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnâd. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.

In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of hadîth criticism - which strangely had appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra. We are therefore obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu 'Afak by Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr at the Prophet’s command.

X5Dragon Aug 2006

As for the algorithm of verification, it is not completely relevant. There may be other algorithms for determining authenticity. The relevant fact is whether the Islamic scholars accept this hadith as sahih or not. If they do, that it's true as far as Muslim belief is concerned, if it is not, the source for it has to be brought in the article. --Aleverde 22:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, seeing how Hadith Scholars has deemed it "of no basis", then it can't be Sahih. Check the article about the isnad, and check out the degrees of criticism, from Sahih to the lowest. At any rate, we should not immedieatly assume that it is correct, rather, we should open the intro saying that he was dot dot dot, according to so and so, and is disputed by Muslims, followed by two sections, one that quotes the story and the other which discuss's its authenticy based on the same sources and others. Agreed?

X5Dragon Sep 1 2006