Talk:Absinthe

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Article Milestones Date Process Result April 7, 2006 Peer review Reviewed May 31, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Classification: Unrated

Archives
July 2003 – February 2007

[edit] To-do

	To-do list for Absinthe:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do: [edit] Absinthe page (add here) [edit] General Absinthe Absinthiana -- Add sources Include more history. Absinthe in popular culture Copy edit. Modern absinthe -- (click red link to start article) History of modern absinthe's development (especially the last 20 years). History of internet involvement. On going changes/developments. Modern competitions and gatherings. [edit] Company pages Similar to other liquors, companies that are notable. Include history of company, information about products, any controversies. Jade Liqueurs -- Owned by Ted Breaux a company that has a long (and some might say shaky) history in the absinthe community as well as famous products. (Company site) Swiss absinthe distillers -- Currently Matter-Luginbühl (unknown company site), Kubler (Company site), Gaudentia Persoz (unknown company site, but press release) don't have pages. Versinthe -- A popular absinthe made in france. Also produces a pastis available in america. Mari Mayans -- very big in Spain, available in several supermarket chains. Tabu absinth -- Popular in Germany and the Netherlands. Produces both anise and anise-free drinks. company site Sebor absinth -- an interesting story of two brands, and two owners. Produced using a cold-filtration method. La Fée Absinthe -- Copy edit. And associated pages (vendor and owner). La Clandestine Absinthe -- Copy edit. Any brief suggestions? Alanmoss 11:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The goal of the To-do list is to get the absinthe section looking like sections on other liquors, with not only a history but neutral articles on significant companies as well.

Other possible companies to add to the list, Francois Guy, Doubs, Xenta.

[edit] Singapore and Norway

Raffles The Plaza Hotel in Singapore is currently running an absinthe promotion, so it seems rather unlikely to be illegal here. I've asked Singapore Customs for a clarification. Jpatokal 06:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I believe Singapore has re-legalised absinthe in the last few months: see this blog with the same brand. I'm checking other sources too.

I think Norway can be excluded from the list too. If absinthe under 60% is ok, then absinthe is legal. It is high strength spirits that are illegal (high strength vodka etc.). So it's only the USA and some Muslim countries left. Alanmoss 07:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Mail from Tuang Hong TAN, Deputy Head of the Import Control Branch, Food Control Division, Agri-Food & Veterinary Authority (AVA) of Singapore: AVA allows consumers/travellers to bring in alcoholic beverages including absinthe for personal consumption so long as the products do not contain meat, and the items' total value is not more than S$100 and not exceeding 5 kg. Jpatokal 09:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

But that doesn't say that companies can bring in hundreds of cases to sell in the local Singapore market, does it, so maybe it is only personal imports .. Could you get Mr. Tan to comment on that? Alanmoss 10:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate Czech Page?

Does any think that the section on Czech/Bohemian Absinth can be made into a separate page that is linked to from that section? As the section stands now, I don’t think so, but if on a separate page we could start to include some info on the Czech producers (Hill’s being the most famous). I don’t know if it should, but I just thought I might bring it up in case anyone else was feeling the same way. 64.16.40.18 06:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

We had the debate before. Personally I would vote for separate pages, Would be even better if the other page could be called Wormwood Bitters. Alanmoss 06:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If you can add more information, it could see a separate page that links from a section in absinthe would be good, showing it as a different product while keeping the relevant parts in the absinthe article as well. -- Ari 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This is assuming that all Czech absinthe is not, in fact, proper absinthe. I can see this becoming a problem if other Czech producers start making more authentic products (as is already becoming the case). Why not leave the Czech section on this page to talk about the modern revival, not authentic 90's beginings, and modern authentic brands? A new page can be created to expand information about the non-authentic stuff, but is there any reason why new, authentic Czech absinth(e) should be excluded from here? I recently saw some new evidence on some page (I will dig through my history to try to find the page) that there was not only absinthe being sold in Bohemia around 1900's, but at least a few local producers. It is not likely that more evidence could emerge as Czech archives are poured through as much as Western ones have been? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.25.69 (talk) 01:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Some people would love to see that "new evidence." Many people have been looking for it for some time but it seems more likely that you find irrefutable evidence of pigs flying first. Hills have been asked for the evidence but cannot provide it according to a contact on one of the forums. Alanmoss 07:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That's basically what I was suggesting, keeping some information on this page including that some czech products are actual absinthe and move product details to a separate page when enough information exists to warrant one. There is evidence absinthe made it to the czech republic and was drank there. There could have been local producers but I haven't seen evidence for that. The specific claim that Hills (and many other czech brands) is how the Czech's produced "absinthe" in the 1920s and that it was given as war rations to troops setting off their own absinth crave etc. is what is completely lacking in evidence. The reality seems to be someone asked Randomil Hills to produce absinthe, he threw some stuff together with a poor understanding of absinthe and made up a story to make it appear authentic. -- Ari 12:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I am still trying to find the page. My firewall deletes my history periodically, so it wasn't there. I specifically remember seeing photos of the inside of an old distillery with some equipement, advertisments for the distillery selling it's absinthe, something else, and a diary page from some famous Czech from around 1900. I guess the problem is that I was relying on the site for the translation of the text, but I would think that can be independantly verified. Stand by I will do my best to find it. For what it is worth, it seemed to be a new site, as I couldn't find any archives of it in the web archives.74.92.226.109 03:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The site in question is being discussed on Fee Verte http://www.feeverte.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=3967&st=0

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.234.240.98 (talk) 04:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

I've read a couple threads dealing with that site and talked to the owner, it's quite interesting. I'm not quite convinced yet without some more information and details but it does seem that absinthe made it's way to the czech republic and may have even been produced there (there are still questions whether it was produced or rebottled) and that it was absinthe and not the "Bohemian absinth" that some companies claim. -- Ari 06:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not add some of the information provided there, then remove it if it can be refuted? 24.16.25.69 19:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not really how Wikipedia works. Information is removed unless it can be proven, not unless it can't be refuted. Big difference there. Kafziel ^Talk 19:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There is proof on that page, however. Only the things that are backed up by proof should be put here, of course.24.16.25.69 20:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It hasn't really been verified as proof of anything yet. All of it is still too ambiguous. Peridotmetal 01:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

By whom should/could it be verified, and what would the verifier be looking for? Do you mean just for a third party Czech person to translate for you the Czech text? That should be very easy to arrange, no? It seems pretty un-ambiguous on the website. There is a lot of proof presented there. There are at least a few changes that can be made:

"Absinthe (with anise) has been consumed in Czech lands (then part of Austria-Hungary) since at least 1888, notably by Czech artists, some of whom had an affinity for France, frequenting Prague's Cafe Slavia.[7] Its wider appeal is uncertain, though it was sold in many shops in and around Prague."

These edits are from the Otto Dictionary book information. There could also be something like:

"There is evidence that at least one local liquor distillery, in Bohemia, was purporting to make absinthe at the turn of the 20th century."

Perhaps it would be best to change the title of the Czech section to "Czech, or Bohemian, style Absinthe". Then move the parts I mentioned into the history section since they have nothing to do with this type of absinthe.24.16.25.69 15:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestions.  :While the evidence is compelling some more details would be nice, although it does match what might be expected. - Ari 16:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I made the changes. Should the source be cited, and if so, how?24.16.25.69 23:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Completed citation24.16.25.69 19:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] USB Absinthe Spoon

It seems a new invention/fad has become de riguer among enthusiasts, how about including a reference to it? - Danzarrella

Might go well on either the Absinthiana page or the Absinthe in popular culture page. -- Ari 18:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

as an external link or an addition to the article itself? - Danzarrella

Mr. USB Spoon Man: I don't think the spoon deserves to be on any of the absinthe pages until we know it exists. I'm a vendor who might buy several hundred spoons but you haven't replied to an email I sent you several weeks ago via your home page, and I don't know anyone who has yet seen a spoon. Alanmoss 10:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Too much of this article reads like a book with decidedly POV sentences claiming one thing over another in an innapropriate tone. Blueaster 07:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Blueaster says about himself "I'm a writer. I like polished prose that is clean, sharp, succint and efficient." And then comes up with a delightful new way of spelling "inappropriate." That aside, Blueaster, and ignoring the fact that the Wikipedia community thinks this article is good (it's one of a handful of food and drink articles awarded "featured article status"), could you give 2/3 POV examples from the article? Alanmoss 10:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

So, basically you're saying, "since other people at one point came together and called this article good, there's nothing wrong with it". Perfectly logical statement. Anyways, I just made that comment as a sort of an earmark to this page, I'll get right to work now. Blueaster 02:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I think he might have been asking what you think is POV and/or an inappropriate tone. Perhaps you could explain that? -- Ari 02:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"and the supposed ill effects of the drink were blamed on that substance in 19th century studies."

I don't know what exactly this sentence is trying to say- Did they find thujone in the 19th century? Did they do studies on absinthe, and because of thujone present, label it dangerous? Since it's amiguous and detracting from the paragraph, I'm removing it. Blueaster 02:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

So instead of removing sections of the article you could always clarify or ask for things to be clarified.

"Undistilled wormwood essential oil contains a substance called thujone, which is a convulsant and can cause renal failure in extremely high doses. 19th century studies blamed the ill effects of absinthe on thujone. Many of these studies were flawed..."

Is accurate.

On the other hand, the newly added " probably due to the fact that less scrupulously manufactured absinthe was actually dangerous. " is questionable. While some claims of absinthism were no doubt do to bad products it would be incorrect to say it was the only thing that led absinthe to be blamed. What was your reasoning for removing the sentence explaining how this study was further missused? -- Ari 02:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

All I have done to that sentence was change the wording from a very personal, "well, duh" tone to a more neutral one. My final wording does not attribute the villification of absinthe to bad product any more than the original wording did.

And the sentence I removed,

These studies were further taken advantage of as the French word for wormwood is 'absinthe', and it was incorrectly stated that absinthe, the drink, had caused these problems.

, was overly vague and unwieldly. I mean, who exactly took advantage of this difference in languages and somehow used it to further their negative claims about absinthe? Newspapers, governments? Anybody? Blueaster 03:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

btw, I hope you won't think that I am editing the article in any sort of spite for absinthe. As I've said before (and as you will hopefully see from the edits that you have been so closely watching), there were a few POV statements in the article that needed fixing, which, hopefully, I have fixed. (And hopefully, you'll see what I meant by saying that I'm a writer who edits in the name of polished prose) Blueaster 03:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I like some changes, but not others. In some cases as mentioned it's best to ask for clarity than to scrap sentences. For example the removed sentence about the confusion over "absinthe" could be clarified that prohibitionist groups used those studies about "absinthe" in anti-absinthe literature.

"probably due to the fact that some of the less scrupulously manufactured absinthe was actually dangerous." This is still not accurate. The problem is "probably due to". Adulterated products are only one cause of the belief that absinthe caused absinthism. So while the original sentence probably needed clarification, this is not it. -- Ari 03:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

fine then. I've reworded it (yet again) so that it's absolutely clear that villification and distortion were present. And now we're left with a positively ugly sentence. Blueaster 04:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)