Talk:Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis

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Nomination date: 2007-04-03
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[edit] opinions of a pro lifer

given my obvious bias my opinions can hardly be taken as POV r watever but this article does seem to concentrate much on disproving rather than a clear balanced approac i cite many soureces as to the connection;

(lengthy cut-and-paste from http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/abc.html removed)

next the actual cause is explained;

(another lengthy cut-and-paste from http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/abc.html removed)

i could go on.....i dont expect all of this to be included.....but i do expect in the interest of POV that prolifers be respected and akknowledged for their genuine scientific research....and that this "tactic" not be labelled as scaremongering but as a serious effort to expose the actual risks involved in abortion....understandbly this encyclepdeia has to remain balanced but from my point of view (POV) this article is highly biased (unlike many of the other articles on abortion) again i reiterate that akknowledgement be given to the overwhelming research into this connection and much of the bias and negative references to prolifers be removed in the interest of NPOV which seems to be very obvious in this article.....--83.49.150.155 17:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The article reflects the fact that every major medical and scientific group that has studied the question has found no link between abortion and breast cancer. Many on the pro-choice side have referred to the pushing of a supposed link, in the absence of such evidence, as "scare-mongering". These things are noted in the interest of presenting all sides with appropriate weight. If anything, this article gives far too much weight to the views of a small fringe of the scientific community whose views are widely felt to be unsupported. MastCell 17:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • the quotes I see have been removed....do they show evidence of a link or not...? if not where is the scientific error (i was sure i presented the biological reasons that abortion caused breast cancer again where is the error), i would be personally intersted as the quotes seemed to show large consensus (rather than a "small fringe"), and if so why were they removed? (granted they were long and tedious) it obviously hasnt been found by "every major medical and scientific group" when the quotes i gave were at least some of them from major scientific groups....
  • if the page is going to present the opinion of a "minority" (which i also challenge) at all then it should at least mention why and how this logical conclusion was made, (ie the biological evidence and scientific research which has yet to be disputed) rather than dismissing their views as "scaremongering".....

--83.49.150.155 19:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really a forum for discussing the science or re-creating the dispute - please see the talk page guidelines. ABC proponents are a minority. No major medical organization has concluded that an ABC link exists, and the NCI specifically rejected such a link. The reasons why this conclusion was reached, as well as references to most of the appropriate primary and secondary sources, both for and against such a link, are cited in detail in the article. The neutral point of view policy and associated FAQ would probably be worth reviewing. MastCell 20:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
if this article isnt "for discussing the science or re-creating the dispute", and if i accept all of the above, it still doesnt justify the negative connations towards the pro life movement. The hypothesis is a valid theory (if not proven to be so, although the wesite i used wasvery convincing to me, using doctors and citing various studies and showing graphs of the increase), therefore it is clear that the pro lifers are not trying to "scaremonger" women into haveing an abortion but are trying to suggest that there may be certain negative affects to abortion that may harm the mother....this is out of genuine concern for the woman and should not be viewed as mallicious which is what this article suggests...

and I just noticed the link to the website I referenced, so apolagies, as i thaught i was brining something knew to the article, obviously it has already been reviewed —The preceding unsigned comment was added by --83.49.150.155 21:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)83.49.150.155 (talk) 21:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Indeed the webpage in question has been looked at; but for such a controversial topic there is conscious effort to source as much as possible from scientific studies directly. This helps bypass bias that might exist in secondary sources, such as abortionbreastcancer.com. As to pro-life intentions both sides of that issue are presented in the article; but it can be verifiably said some zealous pro-lifers are not beyond scare tactics to influence women. - RoyBoy 800 22:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


  • to clarify....u are correct in saying that its best to cite primary rather than secondary sources, however abortionbreastcancer.com's references primary scientific studies, and would it not be prudent to investigate where these references come from and then you may find that they are verifiable, and hopefully u might be able to cite them as primary sources (obviously many of the sources are taken from books or reports by reputable doctors but that shouldnt b a problem either).....
it also can be verifiably said some zealous pro-choicers are not beyond scare tactics to influence women (and yet this isnt hinted at, at all)....i cite (unfortuanatly havnt time to go find the reference again, although im certain i read it on the internet) a case in the States where a women was bullied and threatened (by the local feminist organisation) because she decided to go through with her pregnancy after being raped.....there are many other cases....and there are many women who are pressured into having an abortion rather than it truly being their "choice"

this is beside the point....either the article is balanced and cites example of "zealousness" on both sides and their tactics....or it is a nonPOV article which deals with the merits or demerits of this particular hypothesis (and not with the overall debate on abortion which is dealt with elsewhere) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.45.178.242 (talk • contribs).

Those aren't equivalent examples since they are anecdotal (restricted to individuals). Furthermore as you've pointed out, it has nothing to do with the ABC issue. Use of the ABC issue as a scare tactic is relevant to extreme pro-life elements; extreme pro-choice elements call the ABC issue "pseudoscience". They too are mentioned in this article (in the lawsuit section); so both extremes of the ABC issue are represented in the article. Now, it is possible with very careful referencing to provide a section called "Pro-choice bias"... but its something I'd have to collaborate on with other editors. - RoyBoy 800 23:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead tweak, pro-choice section and good article

I've tweaked the lead to clarify ABC wasn't invented by pro-life groups. However, I am trying to figure out if "in humans" is appropriate prior to pasting lead changes to Abortion. Looking at the Russo and Russo research and trying assess if they actually concluded anything. Found out I only have 2 middle pages of the 1987 study, I need to get a full copy of it to see their conclusions. The thing is, Russo and Russo conducted three studies... each more detailed than the next; so it seems to me they verified their rat findings and hypothesis; in rats. So I think "in humans" is accurate, but might be too leading.

So as to the pro-choice section, I want this section included as a way to help the article achieve my next topic...

...good article status. Do my lead tweaks, and proposed pro-choice bias section improve the article and take it to where it needs to go for good article status?

Just for future reference the Pro-choice bias section would compile existing information and sources:

  • pseudoscience quote from a pro-choice lawyer (juxtaposed with conflicting scientific data)
  • poor pro-choice research:
  • maybe move Daling's quote there

So, yeah... thoughts? - RoyBoy 800 04:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

As you know from Talk:Cancer, my opinion is that it's always important to draw a clear distinction between rat/animal studies and human data. I would definitely keep the clear statement that the link has not been verified in humans, and is not recognized by any major medical organization, in the lead. If anything, mentioning Brind in the lead is probably undue weight, given that he was 1 out of >100 experts and had a very clear investment, as a major proponent of the ABC link. But that's not too big of a deal. I guess a "pro-choice bias" section would be OK, if there's really evidence of a bias, but perhaps it would make more sense to change the "Pro-life bias" section heading to something a little less inflammatory. Really, when the medical data, NCI consensus, etc are all pretty clear that there's no link, then "bias" comes into play primarily when examining the motives of those who disregard the scientific consensus and keep pushing a link. But again, that's my 2 cents. It's a good article. I'd be interested in outside opinions as to whether it's a good article. MastCell 06:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
My bad in communication regarding "in humans". I'm concerned that including that statement actually makes the ABC association stronger than is desirable; because if you say "not verified in humans", then that leaves the next question... so it is confirmed in other species!? Even inferring strong evidence in other species; even though it is accurate... makes me uneasy. If you take "in humans" out then "not verified" can be a broader statement that could, if the reader chose, include not verified in rats too.
As to Brind, absolutely undue weight in the context of the NCI workshop, however it does provide a way to introduce the leading proponent and at the same time provide insightful context on his position vs. scientific consensus. Hence a lead mention seems appropriate, perhaps even necessary... though you are getting me to reconsider; after all it can be moved to the NCI workshop section which is now right below the lead (thanks to Sophia's suggestion of an article inversion) and 1 vs 100 experts can remain without naming him immediately. Hmmmm... have to sleep on this, really want to get the lead optimized.
While bias is certainly primarily on the pro-life side; it is key to cover the dismissive bias of others, which I've already done with the sources already included in the ABC/Brind articles. I could hit two birds with one stone by tweaking "Pro-life bias" section to "Bias" and include both in one section. Think that would be ideal? - RoyBoy 800 04:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Thinking more about Brind in lead before I post... I think I'd base my opinion on whether or not it is appropriate for Brind to be mentioned in Abortion given the ABC lead is replicated there. Trying to formulate a matrix of pros and cons... my instinct is Brind isn't notable enough to be in the Abortion article. LOL, just realized this is analogous to the DCA mention in Cancer. I'll change it now, since otherwise it will keep me awake... and I really need my sleep these days. But I won't replicate in Abortion until you give me a nickle. :"D - RoyBoy 800 04:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
That took longer than I thought, tried to remove redundancies, improve flow and end it with your balancing sentence. - RoyBoy 800 04:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Haven't had a chance to read it in depth yet, but your edits look good. I like the idea of changing "Pro-life bias" to simply "Bias" (or "Politicization" or something?) and dealing with both pro-life and pro-choice political appropriations of the issue. Re the rats, you could say that a handful of studies have suggested an association in rats, but studies have not found a similar association in humans... er something. MastCell 20:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking Politicization would be a good option too; I'll do that soon. I guess I'll leave the "in humans" as it is and replicate to Abortion. Let the inferences go where they may. - RoyBoy 800 21:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discover article

True Discover isn't officially pro-choice, as a progressive science magazine it isn't a stretch to think it is pro-choice. Moreover, when I decided to put it in the pro-choice section, it was because of its author, its content and this other article.

Regarding its content, I find this paragraph particularly troublesome and lacking scientific rigor, or more specifically, lacking fact checking:

Brind dismisses response bias as an unproven hypothesis, but others have found ample evidence for it. In Sweden, epidemiologist Britt-Marie Lindefors-Harris of the Karolinska Institute took advantage of her country's nationwide registry of legal abortions. In a project documented in the American Journal of Epidemiology, Lindefors-Harris conducted a case-control study of abortion and breast cancer, but with a twist: She checked government records to see if the participants were telling the truth about their reproductive histories. Many of them, it turns out, were not. Out of 829 women, 29 appeared to misrepresent their abortion history, with the vast majority of underreporting coming from healthy women in the control group. Based on those numbers, Lindefors-Harris calculated that "an observed increase in risk of up to 50 percent may be caused by response bias."

I strongly feel it should either be put back into the pro-choice section, or removed from the external links section entirely, as it can remain as a footnote reference. Another reason I even linked to the article was to balance the sub-sections out to 5 links each. - RoyBoy 800 16:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I see the issue with balancing the number of links. The author does appear to be pro-choice and to write from that perspective. However, there is a difference between Discover (a scientifically focused magazine) and Mother Jones (which has a clear political perspective). The rest of the "pro-life"/"pro-choice" links appeared to be from partisan groups, so Discover did not seem to fit; it seemed to fit best under "Scientific". But I don't feel especially strongly about it, and it sounds like you do, so if you'd like to put it back I won't object. MastCell 20:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your perspective, that's why I think removing the link completely might be the best option. Although I'm confident in my initial categorization of the article, it could successfully be argued it isn't our place to make such nuanced determinations. Even if they are correct; I'll put it back to pro-choice, but something tells me this won't be the last time I address this subtle issue. I'm going to remove the new pro-life Canadian link as non-notable, and balance the links out again. - RoyBoy 800 23:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation format

I was thinking of converting all the PubMed references to use the {{cite}} template format. Any thoughts/objections? MastCell 20:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Go for it, it was simply referencing exhaustion on my part that older links weren't converted. I did the vast majority of the refing after a peer review prior to finding out about automated templates; I wasn't pleased to say the least. - RoyBoy 800 23:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It won't take long; there's an automated tool that helps you do it (see my user page, at the bottom). I'll take care of it in the next few days. MastCell 00:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've started the process - I'm pretty careful, but you may want to double-check the new links to make sure they look right. MastCell Talk 16:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Partiality

I think this article violates the premise of being neutral - it focus too much in the abortion debate, and neglects the cancer debate. Why it's not part of a cancer debate? What are the other causes (proved, disproved, and under dispute) of cancer? Do cigarettes cause cancer? Do cell phones cause cancer? Do bras cause cancer? Does the Internet cause cancer? Albmont 17:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The topic is one that has become part of the abortion debate, at least in the U.S. If you're looking for information about other causes of cancer, the main article on cancer is a good starting point. MastCell Talk 18:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This topic is mentioned in breast cancer as unproven. I think what Albmont is getting at; is the lack of Cancer categorization. Albmont has a point, though I don't know where this would fit in the Cancer category structure. - RoyBoy 800 23:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
My advice would probably be to swing for the broadest categorization possible and place it under something like Category:Oncology. -Severa (!!!) 23:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That would be the category of choice currently, its either that or create a sub-cat as discussed below. - RoyBoy 800 03:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
And that maybe there should be a Cancer article covering the various claims/causes of cancer that are currently in dispute. For cell phones for example, its under Mobile phone radiation and health, but it could be helpful to centralize borderline causes of cancer into one article? - RoyBoy 800 23:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe something like "Disputed risk factors for cancer"? Don't know how many articles would be in the category though - I mean, is secondhand smoke still a "disputed" risk factor just because a few friends of the tobacco industry are still arguing? Is asbestos "disputed", or radon? Might be opening a can of worms. MastCell Talk 00:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree that the creation of a "Disputed risk factors for cancer" category could become problematic. You could always winnow out POINT-ish categorizations on a case-by-case basis but this could just be making more work than is actually necessary. And per WP:CAT, "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category.". -Severa (!!!) 03:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
A little confusion there, I was contemplating a disputed cancer article; though a category would be much easier to manage. That's a great idea Severa! :"D No need for replicating content in that scenario. - RoyBoy 800 03:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I mean, good idea MastCell. I need more sleep and less Wiki; or just more of both. ;'D RoyBoy 800 03:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Problematic would be an understatement... but then again I'm use to problematic topics. Regarding second hand smoke and lung cancer, I consider myself slightly reserved on that issue, and found a great article by a straightgoods kind of column (tried to find it with no success) which examined the rushed EPA study with 90% confidence interval; and commented that for once tobacco lobbyists might be right... though those were early days in the opening of research. At least the initial evidence was rushed a bit to follow political/social trends.
I'll have to discuss the cancer article issue with the relevant wikiprojects and try to assess the mood for such an article, and if it would be an asset or detriment to Wikipedia. - RoyBoy 800 03:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Update, creation of a disputed cancer category, not an article. - RoyBoy 800 03:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's an speech by Crichton going into a bit of detail on the second hand smoke scare. - RoyBoy 800 03:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Crichton went off the rails a long time ago is a professional contrarian these days, IMHO. The interesting thing about secondhand smoke is that, thanks to the tobacco settlement, you can peruse the once-secret memoranda of the tobacco companies, in which they plotted strategy to manufacture uncertainty about the EPA report and go after the EPA's credibility. "Doubt is our product," as one of the memos said - a beautiful turn of phrase. Regardless of that original EPA report (which I haven't looked into in too much detail), their findings have since been confirmed by (what I consider to be) an indisputable amount of accumulated evidence. But I digress. Sure, why not see what others have to say. We should be careful to make the category title as general and uncontroversial as possible - categories have a nasty habit of becoming a vehicle for tendentiousness. MastCell Talk 03:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, hardly surprising given the stakes involved. I haven't looked closely into the subject in years, but uncertainty is easy to foster when confidence intervals are tweaked. - RoyBoy 800 22:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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