Talk:A Hard Day's Night (song)

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Contents

[edit] older entries

The idea expressed in the following sentence framgents are somewhat accurate though not appropriate for this article. It would be more appropriate under Lennon/McCartney. 69.22.223.38 05:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)WBFromNJ@Aol.com

though the two of them did not actually work on many of their songs together — instead, one would write the majority of the song, and the other would critique it. (In some cases, even when there was no input from the other Beatle, such as on "Yesterday", both of them would still be credited as authors.) It was a symbiosis that could be described as friendly competition.[citation needed]


Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Hard_Day%27s_Night_%28song%29"

The following sentence is complete nonsense and speaks volumes about the problem with an online project where anyone can write anything they wish regardless of their knowledge of the topic: "Both Lennon and McCartney were credited as co-authors, though the two of them did not actually work on their songs together — instead, one would write the majority of the song, and the other would critique it." In fact, they did compose a number of early songs together. It's amazing that for all of the talk about the opening chord, which could only be a matter of conjecture to someone who can't hear it -- basic details such as authorship slip by. (RTL) --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.32.79.74 (talk • contribs).

I fixed the sentence by adding 3 words, which speaks volumes about the why this is a great project. Rather than complain, you could have easily fixed the sentence. Anyone can write anything they wish regardless of their knowledge of the topic, but that doesn't mean it will remain. Sometimes, things can slip by uncorrected for quite some time, like the sentence you pointed out. Many people who criticize Wikipedia for this sort of thing I think are missing a much bigger point. You should not trust anything you read at face value. At least with wikipedia, you can look at the history of a page and see all the different iterations of an article, and you can read the talk page to get a sense of the underlying editorial bias and decision-making. I often think I learn more from talk pages than I do from the articles. -- Samuel Wantman 07:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You did not fix the sentence. It is still incorrect. What you refer to as a complaint is just one individual voicing his opinion. It would be wonderful to have a repository of factual information here. The problem occurs when folks try to write about a subject they don't understand. Because anyone can write whatever they wish here, no matter how well-intended they may be, it is virtually a given that a great deal of misinformation will slip through most of the articles. Further, most folks are not good writers. (RTL)

Here is something else which speaks to the boneheadedness of an online project such as this: "The instrumental break, is often credited to George Harrison on a 12 string. This is not necessarily so. The break may have been played by George Martin on a harpsichord." Who often credits Harrison? What do the authors mean by "not necessarily so"? Is it so, or isn't it so? Was the break played by Martin or not? How was the instrument recorded? (A hint: half speed). When an entry is written in a virtual committee, like this one, what else can the reader expect but sentences which hedge their bets, incorrect and incomplete information, and an inconsistent prose style? (RTL)

[edit] Opening chord

May I suggest clarification to the following sentence in the article?....."According to Walter Everett (1999: 13,19,312), the opening chord is a major subtonic ninth (♭VII, read "flat seven", plus the seventh and ninth, in G major: F A C E G)"........ The "flat seven" in question is of course not that within the chord (it would be D# in the subtonic F chord); rather a label for the subtonic chord itself. I initially found this rather confusing.

Isn't the problem with the opening chord that there are actually two guitars playing, like John and George? One is playing G7sus4, and another is playing G6, or so is my understanding. Adam Bishop 00:08, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not a musician, so I'm not too sure. Actually, I'm hardly musically-inclined — when I first heard the song, I thought it was a percussion instrument. Your reasoning sounds plausible, though. Maybe you could add it to the article? Johnleemk | Talk 06:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I should probably confirm it first :) It's possible that it is just customary to transcribe the opening for two guitars, even if that's not what the Beatles did. I'll see what I can find. Adam Bishop 12:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is llsus? Sebastian 05:41, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, fixed it. Johnleemk | Talk 06:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Fixed it also in the "Did you know..." section on the main page. Femto 16:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is a very good article, but I would take minor issue with the sentence: '"A Hard Day's Night" is probably the only Beatles song that is recognisable within two seconds.'

While I know what the writer intended, a random sampling of my Beatles collection shows that some tracks which are instantly recognisable are Something, Ticket to Ride, Help (whose first word is "Help"), Eleanor Rigby, etc. In fact an average Beatles fan would recognise almost any Beatles song within two seconds.

It's worth mentioning because one of the most stunning achievements of the Beatles is their unique skill with intros.

--Attila the Pooh 10:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I changed it to something more accurate. Johnleemk | Talk 14:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's still a "the" too many. But before someone goes there and deletes just that word - can't we just delete the whole blather about "one of the few" and limit ourselves to real information?
I've rephrased it even more this time. Johnleemk | Talk 16:49, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This song's intro definitely is more unique than just "two seconds" or "before the vocals". How about "immediately recognisable only by the first note", if one can ignore the fact that technically a chord is more than one note (is it?). I kinda liked "recognisable", it gave the sentence that "british" aura. Femto 18:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I added some new research on the opening chord. I heard about it on "As It Happens" the CBC radio program broadcast sometimes on PBS. To hear the report listen about 13 minutes into the following: [1] --Samuel Wantman 07:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


A chord like the one at the start of "A Hard Day's Night" fascinated me as a university music student in the 60's but I am more doubtful now as to whether this was a chord designed by the Beatles or George Martin. The same effect is produced at the end of "A Day in the Life" and I feel sure that this monolithic chord was Martin's doing and not the boys'. Please convince me otherwise - as I age all my heroes are developing feet of clay. 16 Oct 2004

Martin did not "design" the chord at the end of A Day In The Life anymore than he designed the chord used to open A Hard Day's Night. (RTL)

Note on this point under: Who done it? below...
I've long come to think of the Beatles as John, Paul, George, Ringo and George Martin. Take one of them out of the mix and quite a bit of the magic would be gone. George Martin is one of my heroes. No need for clay. --Samuel Wantman 09:38, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ridiculous. George Martin was not a member of The Beatles. He was a superb producer. (RTL)

I would guess it was Martin. If I remember correctly he was responsible for their pandiatonicism. Hyacinth 01:28, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
According to Walter Everett (1999: 21) Martin was largely responsible for the quality (if not the content) of the introductions, codas, and fade-outs. Hyacinth 20:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Martin didn't write the introductions and could not be "largely responsible" for them. (RTL)

From users' discussion

It's been over 20 years since I took music theory, but i'd just call this a tone cluster. You're probably better at this, what do you think? --Samuel Wantman 22:21, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't have the song available for listening, as that sometimes clears up immediately whether notes are coloristic or not.
I would probably agree with you: call it a pandiatonic cluster (whose root is D). However, there are two things I notice about the chord:
  • The pitch classes can be lined up in a cycle of fifths: F-C-G-D-A-E
  • The pitch classes can also be lined up in a series of thirds: D-F-A-C-E-G
Neither is suggested by the spacing or inversion, except that a series of thirds seems more likely in popular music and having D in the bass suggests itself as the root. One could thus interpret it simply as D11 extended chord. Hyacinth 01:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You wrote in the article:
The song is in the key of G major, making the above bVII9 chord F-A-C-E-G, and in 4/4 time.
but what about the D that is so prominent in the chord? George plays it, and Paul and George Martin reinforce it. All the discussions about the chord are making things very confusing for the reader. I can barely follow it all, and they contradict each other. The research you cite is older than the reseach I cited about professor Brown. I'd re-edit all of this myself, chronologically, If I understood it well enough to do it justice, but I think you'd do a better job if you're willing. --Samuel Wantman 21:55, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
First, every piece of music is analysed in many divergent ways. If this wasn't the case analyses would not need to be done as the "truth" would be immediately apparent. The best service we can do for readers is to provide at least a sampling of the full variety of interpretations of a given piece.
Second, I don't know who considers the chord a G chord of any variety, but that is extremely unlikely, in my opinion. According to Alan W. Pollack's notes [2] the chord "functions as a surrogate dominant (i.e. V) with respect to the chord on G which begins the first verse". Given this I would feel fine about removing the claim that the opening chord is any G chord, and that would reduce the variety. Hyacinth 22:09, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Also note that Prof. Brown doesn't interpret his data at all and that a chords function should not be confused with its structure.
I also attempted to indicate clearly in the article Everett's analytic situation. He is more likely to interpret the chord as a bVII because he is only making that point as part of a larger argument that the bVII is important and often used in The Beatles' music. He also has a much more compelling reason, which is that the bVII is used throughout "A Hard Day's Night" and thus the opening chord is more likely to be (re)interpreted as a bVII. Hyacinth 22:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I did try a re-edit, and hope I have not offended you by it. I understand more from your comments on my talk page than I did from what you wrote in the article. I tried to make the article more readable for a general reader. I you want to go into a more detailed analysis, I think you should explain it in more detail. Thanks, --Samuel Wantman 22:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No offense, you greatly improved the order of the information. I readded the technical details you removed. Hopefully they are written and located more clearly. Hyacinth 22:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
end paste
I still don't understand why the D is missing from the analysis of the chord in the article since it is played by both Harrison on the 12 string and McCartney on the bass. After reading the 2 paragraphs I can't help but think "What about the D?" --Samuel Wantman 05:34, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My bulleted statements above are not original research, since they are self-evident. Any interpretation of those statements without a citation would be original research. I added an attempt at explination according to Alan W. Pollack in the article. Hyacinth 06:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is the source for "some have said it is Gm7add11 (G Bb C D F), while others state that is Gsus4 (G C D). Still others contend the chord played was a G7sus4"? Who is this mysterious "some" and their friend "others"? Hyacinth 22:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The reason I ask is because, actually looking at the claims, I realized they are ridiculous.
  • According to Alan W. Pollack, the opening chord is a "surrogate dominant". The song cleary is in G major, and the chord which opens the first verse (ie, the chord which directly follows the opening chord) is a G major chord. Thus the opening chord can not be a G chord of any kind. Even to a lay listener it is obviously not the same chord as the one which follows, and thus CAN'T BE A G CHORD.
  • There could be no debate over whether it is a G4 or G11 chord, as 4=11 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8/1,9/2,10/3,11/4), THEY ARE THE SAME THING.
  • I have found no source which says the chord is any kind of a G chord.
I can only conclude that the claim "some have said it is Gm7add11 (G Bb C D F), while others state that is Gsus4 (G C D). Still others contend the chord played was a G7sus4" is original research and never belonged on the article, nevermind the main page.
In my opinion disinformation such as this should not make it to the main page, but I am not sure how to prevent it. Hyacinth 19:30, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Who done it?

Concerning the authorship of "The Chord," in an interview, either on the "Beatles Anthology" or the Miramax "Hard Day's Night" DVDs, George Martin attributes the chord to John Lennon, not himself, as someone speculated. Though work on the intro may have been at Martin's prodding.

Also, the way Martin talks about it indicates that the chord was/can be played by a SINGLE guitar, unlike sheet transcriptions mentioned.

I beleive he comments that he has no idea what the chord is, for an extra bit of trivia. -- portly podge (Oct 13 2005 2:32PST)

Of course the chord can be played on a single guitar. (RTL)

[edit] A hard day's night opening chord

Ok I think I have nailed this one. The chord is G11sus4. It is played on a guitar thus: barre the third fret,play the second string on the fifth fret and do the same for the fourth string. The notes read: G,D,F,C,D,G. An incredible chord and the portent of things to come way back in 1964/65!!

First, there are sources which argue against your interpretation, how do you explain that? Secondly, an 11th chord (an extended chord) can not be an add 4, because the 11th is the 4th:
1 3 5 7 9/2 11/4
G B D F A C
Thus I would call what you are describing a G7add4. Hyacinth 19:06, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Except there's no B in the chord, so that makes it a G7sus4. Although I don't claim that's what it is; see other discussion here. --Locarno 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:No original research. Hyacinth 19:30, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A few comments: in tablature books (published by...I forget, but whoever publishes all the standard tab books), the chord described above (G11sus4) is what is used. I have also seen a transcription with, on top of that, a second guitar playing G6, I guess (my music theory knowledge is crap) - G, B, D, and A, the A on the fifth fret of the first string. That has the problem of having both a 3rd and a suspended 4th, though. A good way to combine it is to play the G11sus4, adding that A note on the first string. I'm not sure what that would be called, but it gives it the shape of a Dm7 with a G bass note. Perhaps another reason the first G chord of the song itself sounds different is because it is an open chord, while the G (or whatever) at the beginning is a barre chord. Adam Bishop 19:43, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think there may be two different discussions happening here at the same time. One is a music theory question, and the other is how the chord can be played on a guitar. If we assume that professor Brown's research is correct, then there is no question of about what the guitars were playing. I haven't played guitar in years, but It looks like George was playing a normally tuned 12 string. He probably only strummed the top 10 strings (not playing the bottom e2 and e3. The next 6 strings were open, and the two b3 strings were played on the first fret making them c4. The same finger probably damped the top 2 strings. The music theory question is much more complicated because the notes can be interpreted as being many different chords. I think a Dm7sus4 makes sense just from looking at the notes that were played, but that doesn't mean that a guitar player would play a Dm7sus4 and get the correct sound. Everett & Pollack's research also adds interesting analyses of how the chord relates to the entire song. So can we put this to rest? --Samuel Wantman 00:27, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In listening to this chord (which I think is the most effective way to judge its role in the piece), I hear the D most prominently as the sounding root of the chord, and the G slightly less prominently as an added note. Brown's research seems to support the D as an important note. The chord sounds like it has a dominant function (meaning that it creates tension that leads to a resolution in the tonic); this can be illustrated by playing D-C-B-A-G between the first chord and the opening of the song. Given all this, I am more inclined to label it as a type of Dsus4 (the added fourth anticipates the tonic of the piece). --TobyRush 17:10, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Doesn't appear in the ogg sample

It's too bad that this much-discussed opening chord doesn't appear in the sound file linked in the article's intro. --P3d0 16:28, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mono/Stereo versions?

It would be worth to mention that there are at least two released versions of this song. - Don't ask me, all I know is that I was disappointed that the (faster, stereo) version on The_Beatles_1 wasn't the (european market?, mono) version that I liked - and incidentally, I did notice it immediately from the opening chord.

Could this explain the chord disparities, because people in different parts of the world talk about different recordings? The .ogg sample appears to be the stereo version, only in mono. It's a pity that it doesn't include the opening chord, now that it got so much attention. Femto 11:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A (the?) mono version that sounds familiar to me is on Anthology 1, but that can't be where I heard it first. According to this list of takes it's take 1, which is not unlike take 3, that was used for the title track of the film. Can the chord be that unique that I remember it as the 'right' one years (decades!?) after hearing it somewhere? I'm not a big radio listener, it's possible that I've never heard the 'right' song until recently.
What disturbs me with above list is that take 9 "turns out to be, for the most part, the commercially released version of the song" [bolding mine]. So it could be that my Dad's old records played some obscure UK single film soundtrack version or what? I spent some time a-googling but apparently didn't know the right technical terms to find it out. Do you too sometimes have this weird feeling of living in a parallel universe? Femto 13:23, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Malapropism?

I don't think this qualifies as a malapropism, despite the fact that McCartney used the term. Which word is Starr supposed to have thought meant something that it didn't? What word was he confusing it with? Josh Cherry 18:28, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's what I was wondering. There is not a single example of an actual malaporpism in the entire article, event though the word is used 6.0*10^0 times. And what's with the redundant "and was the title song for their album of the same name"? Jeffrey L. Whitledge 20:51, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. Some online dictionaries define it as 'a ludicrous misuse of a word' or 'humorous misuse or distortion of a phrase'. Saying "day" instead of "night" in this context fits the definition more than well, I'd say. That it's further specified as 'also or especially the confusion with a word that sounds similar' doesn't make the first definition wrong. It's way too late trying to keep the use of "malapropism" 'clean', and the word worked for me. Femto 15:22, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Besides, "gaffe" doesn't fit at all in my opinion. It seems to go more into the direction of 'clumsy social error' and 'blatant mistake'. He just could have said "it's been a hard day" and that's it, no mistake, not funny, even though it's night. Or, if it's a 'britishism', it either needs to be awkwardly explained to some readers, or the word shouldn't be used too often or without a 'funny gaffe' qualifier. Femto 15:22, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe there's a 100% fitting word for this kind of 'retroactive malapropism' that distorts a phrase by actually correcting something that wasn't wrong until after it did so. If you can't find a word, invent one. The current solution of calling the Ringo-ism by what they called it is so simple it's brilliant again. The heading is quite terse and looks a little like a tabloid headline maybe. It also appeared reasonable to split off the second half of this section into a separate "The making" part. Femto 14:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What is it? Natural.

What is &#9838. It is not showing up in my browser. Hyacinth, is this from you? --Samuel Wantman 11:25, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, its from me. It should be a natural and doesn't show on my browser either. See: Wikipedia:WikiProject Music#Musical mark up and Help:Special characters. Hyacinth 20:48, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lead sheet

The lead sheet is in C major, while the piece (at least my recording of it) is in G major. I'm a newbie... am I missing something? --TobyRush 17:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I interpret the song as being in G, though the source of the lead sheet, Richard Middleton, considers it to be in C major and gives no reason. Having verifying the lead sheet by playing along with the recording I can only guess that Middleton is describing the key signature of the lead sheet and not the key of the song. Hyacinth 20:59, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The key signature of C Major (no sharps or flats) is identical to the key signature of G Mixolydian. Hence the presumable confusion. Whig 19:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed paragraphs

I removed the following from the article:

2005: Everett claims he is misquoted on wiki: "There is no E in the chord, and Everett's *Beatles As Musicians* does not say there is. BAM I (pp 236-237) quotes Harrison, who was filmed discussing the playing of the chord in Auckland in 1984, as saying he played "an F chord with a G on top," meaning F-A-C and G. BAM goes on to say the piano doubles the Rick, and McCartney plays D in the bass.
It doesn't make sense to try to label the chord traditionally. The chord has dominant function, it has modal neighbors, and it predicts the Rick ending. w.e."

I don't understand this. The article does not claim that Everett ever said that there was an E in the chord. That claim was made by Jason Brown. The rest could possibly be returned to the article. I'd suggest a little rewriting to make it easier to follow. -- Samuel Wantman 01:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


This page seems to add some useful information to the discussion:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7049/hdnchd.htm
anon

[edit] Everett

I also removed:

  • Everett (2005: 109) says: "It doesn't make sense to try to label the chord traditionally. The chord has dominant function, it has modal neighbors, and it predicts the Rick[enbacker] ending." He also thinks "the piano doubles the Rick, and McCartney plays D in the bass."

As there is no 2005 book listed in the references. Worse, it was added anonymously after the paragraphs above were removed and is actually a botched attempt at reversing the meaning of the sentence it replaced ([3]):

  • Everett (2001: 109) points out that the chord is pandiatonic.

Hyacinth 09:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brown

I also removed:

  • Jason Brown, Professor for the Faculty of Computer Science at Dalhousie University in Halifax, whose research interests include graph theory, combinatorics, and combinatorial algorithms, posits that the chord is pandiatonic. Professor Brown announced in October 2004 that after six months of reseach he succeeded in analyzing the opening chord by "de-composing the sound into original frequencies, using a combination of computer software and old-fashioned chalkboard." According to Brown, the Rickenbacker guitar wasn't the only instrument used. "It wasn't just George Harrison playing it and it wasn't just the Beatles playing on it... There was a piano in the mix." To be exact, he claims that Harrison was playing the following notes on his 12 string guitar: a2, a3, d3, d4, g3, g4, c4, and another c4; McCartney played a d3 on his bass; producer George Martin was playing d3, f3, d5, g5, and e6 on the piano, while Lennon played a loud c5 on his six-string guitar.

Where did Brown announce this? Hyacinth 09:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps in

? Hyacinth 09:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The source of the Brown information was listed in the References section:

I'm putting the paragraph back. Perhaps a footnote would be helpful. -- Samuel Wantman 09:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Hyacinth 08:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Studio recordings

Anyone know if they recorded it more than once? I seem to have two versions in my MP3 library, at two quite different tempos. Both have the same opening chord, but one has a kind of reverberating snare drum, and the other doesn't. The album for the slower one is listed as "Anthology 1 CD2" and the other is "A Hard Day's Night". Any ideas? (I'm not 100% sure they're both studio recordings, certainly the quicker one has slightly better sound quality). Or is the second one what is meant by the record company being free to re-release the songs - it's not really spelt out in the article if they re-recorded them to do that. Stevage 17:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

See the #Mono/Stereo versions? section above, especially the list of takes link. There are at least two released versions: one mainstream, another on Anthology 1, and maybe another as the film soundtrack. Other than that, I have no clue either as to which when or what. Femto 18:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The middle 8

Does anyone have a cite for the composer of the middle 8? -- Samuel Wantman 08:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Correction to the image above showing the melody: The chord notations are correct and in the key of G, but the notes are transposed to the key of C (almost correctly; the first three notes as sung but in the key of C would be "ffe" instead of "ggf") . As sung in G, they should be "ccbd,d,d,,ddcdf,dcdcb" etc.. Middleton's analysis, quoted above and below the transcription, is based on this error and cites the notes as shown rather than as played and sung. The song is solidly in the key of G and does not have a single cadence resting on or implying C.

I moved the above comment here. Hyacinth 21:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to all from this Wikinewbie who didn't see the discussion tab; Hyacinth, thanks for redirecting my efforts to this more appropriate place. In any case, I am quite sure the image is in error, as is much of the accompanying analysis upon which it is based, and don't see the value of including them just because they come from a printed source. The only thing I agree with is that the "shape" is "a common pattern in blues," but the dominant is D (not G), the F-natural (not B-flat) is a bluesy flatted seventh over the tonic, and the B-flat (not E-flat) is a flatted third that plays against the major third, B-natural, in the typical blues manner. AlanH212 22:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference edits

I replaced these "general" references with specific footnotes:

I need to go back and add the ISBN numbers (ran out of time).

I couldn't find where these sources were used in the article, despite close reading of the article and sources:

The Spitz ref had "*McCartney quoted in Bob Spitz...", which may refer to the "direct and personal" quoute about using pronouns in titles. I don't have Spitz handy, so I couldn't confirm that and change it to a footnote style ref.

I removed the fairly general "Lennon/McCartney" part; it wasn't accurate (IMO) and if it was it belongs in the Lennon/McCartney article.

So shoot me already. John Cardinal 21:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The ISBN's are done now. Who can help with REFs above and also with "citation needed" facts? John Cardinal 00:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
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