Talk:A Canticle for Leibowitz

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[edit] Discussion of other languages used in the book?

I think a fair number of people will come to this article looking for assistance with the Latin/Hebrew/German in the book. How much (if any) of that should be covered here? Can anybody take a stab at

for example? Thanks,

Tarheelcoxn 09:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It says "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad" which means "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One." Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 05:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In the Analysis section, it talks about the Rachel interaction with Zerchi possibly being in his mind. I think that the article needs to note the fact that Brother Joshua thought he saw Rachel smile (or was it nod?) well before this incident. Not sure where it fits in, though.

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I have seen the sequel even translated in bookshops. It should be mentioned that it was continued or published. -- Error 02:22 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Done. If you know who finished it, please add this info to the article.

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Oh, Christ, that's a future tense. Gah! Meelar 05:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Ahoy everyone I silently dropped the "black comedy" link, on the grounds that I thought that calling ACfL a "black comedy" was such a bizarre statement that it had been made in error. I see it's been restored, which means that someone disagreed.

In support of my position, I'd like to cite the blurb text on my copy, which calls ACfL "shocking", "powerful", and "striking", with nary a word about humor, black or otherwise. I think that ACfL is a very important work in the canon of SF--one, I think, of the very first post-apocalyptic novels--but that it is not funny nor intended to be funny.

What do you all think? Nightsky 11:11, 10 May 2004

It's not a ha-ha comedy, but there is a lot of humor in Canticle. E.g. the shopping list as sacred relic, the circuit diagram of "doohickii, squiggles, quids, laminulae, and thingumbob", the Poet, the Abominable Autoscribe, etc.

"Their philosophers demonstrated by unaided reason alone that the Supreme Cathartes aura regnans had created the world especially for buzzards. They worshipped him with hearty appetites for many centuries."

--wwoods 18:28, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Nightsky, have you read the book? It *is* a dark comedy - think Dr. Strangelove. (yes, several parts did make me laugh out loud :]). On the back of my copy, the review from the Chicago Tribune describes it as "richly comic". On Amazon, several other top reviewers said the same thing. →Raul654 19:49, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

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"Eventually, approximately a decade after the discovery of the shelter, Leibowitz is canonized, based mostly on the evidence discovered in the shelter."

I disagree about the "based mostly". The positive case for sainthood was based on Leibowitz's post-conversion career as a knowledge-saver (and post-mortem career as a miracle-worker). The evidence of the shelter addressed an argument that he hadn't adequately established that his wife was dead before taking holy orders. The evidence didn't actually add anything to what was known about what he knew and what he did, but at least it showed reasonably convincingly that his wife had died in the war.

--wwoods 06:41, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Right, but his candidacy would not have gone forward without the evidence discovered there. →Raul654 06:44, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

Sure it would. The case for canonization had gotten stuck and buried in the files, but apparently all the opposition had was a lame-ass argument about Mrs. Leibowitz. The discovery of the shelter gave the Leibowitzians a way of getting the heirarchy to take some action on the case, by presenting it with something that had to be investigated immediately. Inertia works both ways -- having gotten the case reactivated, they could keep it moving forward to a final decision. But sooner or later that would have happened, with, presumably the same result.

The actual evidence didn't figure in the decision. The first advocate let go of "miracle number seven" without much regret, and the second dismissed it as "so trivial it's silly".

--wwoods 22:34, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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I read the article and was also struck by "dark comedy" as being inappropriate -- but obviously it's been discussed here. I have inserted a proposed compromise, that acknowledges the book's dark comedy while not confining it to that genre (I would argue that much of the final third, especially the interactions of the abbot with Mrs. Grales and the woman who is eventually euthanized, is far too serious for it to have been intended as satire or comedy by Miller). I think dark comedy is appropriate in describing many scenes in the book, but saying it is a dark comedy is an inadequate description of the book. If my compromise is insufficient, can we agree on another wording that at least removes the bald assertion that the novel fits perfectly into that category? Jwrosenzweig 19:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• I think your edit is perfect. I've read the book several times over the years, beginning 40 years ago, I suppose, and although it has some *moments* of dark comedy in it, it certainly was not conceived as such, ie, an Evelyn Waugh or Thomas Pynchon-type book. I was bothered by this term in the introduction a couple of weeks ago when I read it but was too lazy to try to come up with the perfect edit for it. You've done a great job.Hayford Peirce 19:28, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • In general, I like the changes to the intro, but not some of the phrasing. I have reworked it, both for phrasing and to add a much-needed plot information (setting/location). →Raul654 19:43, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
    • Actually, Raul, the phrasing you object to has been there a while -- you didn't change anything I'd added. :-) I prefer your intro to the one left after my edit, of course: it's a much nicer structure. Thanks for taking the time to put it in tip-top shape. Jwrosenzweig 22:05, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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One of the quotations includes this line: "Sending at least three Bishops, at least." Is the duplication in the original, or did it get added when the quotation was imported to the article? My copy of the book isnt' readily accessible so I can't volunteer to check it. JamesMLane 07:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Abbey was not in Utah.

Brother Francis was from Utah, but that actually implies that the Abbey is not. Other points about the location, its within striking distance of Denver, which puts it east of the Rocky Mountains (not Utah), and close enough to the plains that the nomads aren't travelling through other individuals territories much. My suspicion is that it’s actually near Albuquerque, but somewhere in New Mexico is probably all we can definitively say.

The map in St. Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman, I believe, clearly places the monastary in Utah. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The map places it just west of the Rio Grande, in northern New Mexico.Minguo 04:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

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"The third section, Fiat Voluntas Tua, takes a strong stance against euthanasia (assisted suicide)" - is this really true? The main character (the abbot) certainly does, but the book itself seems to be rather objective.