User talk:A.Z.

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[edit] Reverted edit

Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia! Your edit to the Wikipedia:Reference Desk/Miscellaneous was reverted. Please do not substitute your own name in other people's signatures. If the IP was yours, then you could place a note after saying that you were the IP, or put {{unsigned|USERNAME}} after the comment. Again, thank you, and welcome to Wikipedia. bibliomaniac15 Review? 03:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It was my IP. A.Z. 01:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Fuvest732005.gif

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[edit] what's that you say?

Can you come back to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Tolerance and elaborate, explain what you are talking about? — coelacan talk — 22:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I said "This project is not a global project to advance the tolerance of others." Isn´t that hypocrisy? What I meant by that is that the project is a global project to advance the tolerance of others and I didn´t see the reason to say the opposite. But don´t be mad at me if you disagree! A.Z. 21:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually the WikiProject does not do that, and cannot do that, and would be shut down if it tried. There is only one purpose to any WikiProject: to improve Wikipedia's articles covering a topic. That can never involve promoting a point of view, even a tolerant point of view. Now, it is pretty widely known that awareness and information alone contribute to tolerance, but this can only be a side-effect, it cannot be a project goal. Hope that helps, — coelacan talk — 17:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I don´t really understand it. I think the fact that awareness and information, as you say, contribute to tolerance is the main reason why people want to be a part of the project. A.Z. 19:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, everyone's personal motivations for joining are probably fine, but not quite the same as the stated goals of the project itself. I was just trying to point out the distinction because there have been WikiProjects that have been deleted in the past for pushing too much POV. Advancing tolerance is not the goal of Wikipedia, so it can't be the goal of any WikiProjects either. Anyway, as long as you stick to wp:neutral point of view policy, you'll be fine. =) — coelacan talk — 03:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I read the goal of Wikipedia is to bring the sum of human knowledge to everyone on the planet. This means we believe knowledge is something good to people. There must be an explanation of why knowledge is something good to people. It must be the same explanation to all Wikipedians. It makes no sense that a Wikipedian who doesn´t like tolerance wants to bring the sum of human knowledge to everyone on the planet, since the fact that tolerance is good is a part of the knowledge we humans have accumulated so far. I´m not going to try to write in the articles that "tolerating gay people is good", but I think if Wikipedia does a really great job over many years and improve its articles a lot, eventually this message will be obvious from the articles. What I mean is: the articles must be true. The truth is that tolerance is good. Someone who wants everyone to be intolerant has nothing to do in the LGBT project because, if this person really tries to do the best to make the articles better and better and each day reflecting more the truth, this person will eventually have helped to create pro-tolerance articles. The only way to create an article which will make someone think tolerance is not good is to lie. A.Z. 16:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking this page

Please do not remove content from your talk page; other users will utilize this page as a way of seeing past discussion, and removing things can be seen as disruptive if you appear to be trying to hide something. You may wish to consider archiving old discussions; take a look at the move page if you would like to learn more about moving and renaming articles. Mieciu K 18:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Even admins blank talkpages; is there a policy somewhere that you can link to indicating it is forbidden? Anchoress 04:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Don't tell people what to do with their own talk pages, furthermore. -128.101.53.232 08:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
First of all it's not his "own" talk page, this page is a part of wikipedia and serves a specific purpose, you want your "own" talk page than go to myspace. Second blanking your talk page is not forbidden, it is not advised. Mieciu K 14:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
When you say 'Please do not remove content from your talk page' it sounds like you're giving an order. Anchoress 17:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I was giving advice ("You may wish to consider..."). If user A.Z still wants to blank his page than he should do it personaly. Mieciu K 18:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
OK. ;-) Over and out! Anchoress 00:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
OK. A.Z. 21:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Invitation

You requested to be invited to join WP:LGBT some time ago, but it seems no-one complied. My sincere apologies, and would you like to join WikiProject LGBT studies? :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course I would! I don´t know yet how things work in the Project. How can I help? A.Z. 17:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead and add yourself to the members list at WP:LGBT#Members so that you start receiving the monthly newsletter (it's delivered to this talk page by a bot). Keep an eye on the discussions at WT:LGBT and chime in whenever you want. At the top of that discussion page, there's an "open tasks" template that gives an assortment of things that need doing. If you are involved in WP:AFD dicussions, please watch and use WP:DSSG. Hopefully that's enough to get you started. The most helpful thing while you're learning is to stay close to WT:LGBT and try to work out what's going on; go ahead and ask questions there if you need input. — coelacan talk — 17:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Coel actually meant the membership list here - the one she gave you is transcluded and you can't edit it. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Oops! I might have known that. And it turns out it's not delivered by a bot this month, but by the hard-working Dev. ;-) Anyway, welcome, A.Z.! — coelacan talk — 03:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Coelacan! A.Z. 22:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

Hi, A.Z., welcome to WikiProject LGBT Studies!

We are a growing community of Wikipedia editors dedicated to identifying, categorizing, and improving articles of interest to the LGBT community. Some points that may be helpful:

  • Our main aim is to help improve LGBT-related articles, so if someone asks for help with an article, please try your hardest to help them if you are able.
  • Most important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is highly recommended that you watchlist it.
  • The project has several ongoing and developing activities, such as article quality assessment, peer review and a project-wide article collaboration, all of which you are welcome to take part in. We also have a unique program to improve our lower quality articles, Jumpaclass, so please consider signing up there.
  • If you have another language besides English, please consider adding yourself to our translation section, to help us improve our foreign LGBT topics.
  • If you're planning to stay, have a square in our quilt! You can put anything you want in it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the talk page, and we will be happy to help you.

And once again - Welcome!

Glad you could make it. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! A.Z. 23:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT WikiProject newsletter

[edit] Fluorescent Lighting

I've noticed you around the RefDesk over the past while, but was rather surprised to read your comments on the Fluorescent Lighting talk page. It's not that I disagree with you, in fact I posted a reply strongly supporting your position. I'm just wondering why you hold such an unusually strong position against fluorescent lighting? Do you suffer particularly badly from it?

In any case, I realize that the above is a personal question, and I respect privacy, so please only reply at your comfort level.

I have to admit that I have a bit of an ulterior motive behind my dislike of fluorescent lighting (besides being personally sickened by it). I'm in the LED lighting buisness, and so I have quite a different, additional reason to be against fluorescent lighting. ;)

Perhaps we can coordinate our efforts somehow. There's nothing I'd like better than for fluorescent lighting to be banned and replaced by LED lighting, which, as I'm sure you're aware, has none of the negative health effects of fluorescent lighting, and is far more energy efficient than incandescent lighting.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter!

Lewis Loomis 04:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


Hello, Lewis! I remember you from the Reference Desk. I, as many people, feel bad in places with fluorescent lighting. I don´t know whether I suffer particularly badly from it or I realize better than most people how much I suffer from it. I´m totally comfortable talking about this, and it even feels good.
I get depressed when I am exposed to fluorescent lighting. It´s really hard to describe the feeling. But it´s so bad that, if I had to choose between living in a 10000 square meters house with only fluorescent bulbs or in a 50 square meters house with only LED/incandescent/natural lighting, I would not think twice to choose the second. The first one could even have a pool, 20 bathrooms, a home theater, whatever: it´s just not worth it. I would not be able to enjoy a nice bath in my tub, I would not be able to throw a party, I would not be able to have a nice time with my friends, I would not be able to study and work in such a place.
Not that I can´t take a few hours of fluorescent lighting: I can take many hours of it, but always in the hope of getting out of that place, constantly thinking about the future, about the time when it ends: my house or a park or when the sun rises or any place and time without fluorescent bulbs. Now, if I didn´t have the chance to get home to a fluorescent lighting free environment, I guess I´d just freak out. I´d be truly depressed, as in a medical condition.
I had never thought about this before your question: it would be amazingly destructive to me not having the hope to get out of the buses, trains, schools, offices and kitchens with fluorescent bulbs into normal places.
Another example, just to make it clearer how serious I am: if I were to choose between living in a cell (like in a jail) for two years with fluorescent lighting only or live in the same cell for three years with only incandescent bulbs (or LED, I guess), I´d not think twice to choose the second option, just like with the house. If the second option were four years in jail instead of three, I would think twice. And then choose it anyway.
I see you are sickened by fluorescent lighting as well, so maybe you already feel like I do and writing all of this to explain how much I hate fluorescent lighting was just a waste of time.
I´m sure you and I are not the only ones who feel that way. Many people say they are affected by fluorescent lighting as well, and many are very passionate about it. I think there´s some good explanation to this. Sunlight and fire have obviously been the natural sources of light to humans for a lot of time. Fluorescent bulbs are just too different from it. I don´t know how they are different, but they are, since fire lighting doesn´t make people sick.
The explanation of the process through which fluorescent lighting affects human health is not important at all in order to ban fluorescent bulbs. A simple but thorought scientific study would put an end to the debate simply by proving that the phenomenon exists. Without such an experiment, it will be hard to do anything about the problem. Most people will live and die without acknowledging the fact that fluorescent bulbs are bad for their health. I think it´s just like food. Many ingredients of industrialized food are bad for human health, but people would eat a lot of those ingredients if it weren´t the FDA ban or guidelines about it. Few people would realize on their own that they are unhappy and depressed and lethargic because of a specific thing they are eating: they need someone to make an experiment and prove that the thing is bad for them and only then they will become aware of it and stop eating it, or at least start eating not as much of it as they would otherwise.
I can think of a few ways to do the experiment. There needs to be a lot of volunteers, otherwise the results may not be convincing to everyone. They would not know what the experiment is about. They would do a lot of different normal activities like watching movies, answering psychological tests, writing, talking, doing math exams, English exams, eating, reading, etc. Then somehow their level of happiness and their results on the tests and their impressions of the experience would be measured. Some volunteers would be in rooms with fluorescent bulbs, other in rooms with LED, other in rooms with natural lighting for many hours. The ones in the rooms with fluorescent bulbs will be less happy at the end: less happy about the food, about the movies, about everything. They will have worse scores in the exams as well.
Another way is to measure each individual response to different environments. A person could do a bunch of activities in a room lit by a fluorescent bulb. Then, after a month, the same person would do the same things in another room, lit by LED. No matter what was the activity, results of a comprehensive study like this would show clearly that the results of the second room are better than the results of the first room. Not that a few hours of activities will result in an extremely huge difference between the two situations: but, if made with a lot of people, the average results of the experience will indicate a clear difference.
I would like to write more, but I´m getting tired right now and I have to sleep. Anyway, my thoughts on the matter are pretty much summoned up above! I hope it wasn´t disappointing. A.Z. 06:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey A.Z
No, there wasn't anything wrong at all with what you wrote! I just didn't realize you wrote it! I just didn't put your talk page on my watch list because I was expecting you to write back on mine, and so I guess I just missed it.
You have some very good ideas. The way I look at it, it's sort of like smoking. It's hard to believe, but for decades, even centuries, it just didn't occur to people that smoking was bad for you, except when they finally got around to doing scientific studies on it. I really don't get it though, it seems so obvious. How can inhaling smoke and coughing and being out of breath all the time not be enough of a clue to people that there's something wrong with smoking, even way before they actually did any scientific studies?
Anyway, it's 3 AM, I just got up to check the computer, so I'm tired too and should go back to bed. Sorry for not responding sooner. I just don't make much use of the "watchlist" thing. If you write on my talk page I'd be able to respond a lot quicker, as I'm certainly very interested in what you have to say.
Take care for now,
Loomis 07:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Lewis

[edit] Do some autodidacts really believe amnesia lasts only an integer number of years ?

Hi,

I liked your question at the RD. Hope you're well! See you! --DLL .. T 22:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I really liked knowing that, since I thought nobody had liked the question. I was even kind of upset by that... Now, the integer number was only an example to make it easier for people to think about the question without having to do math as well. A.Z. 22:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] en-3

Based on your writing skills, I think you're being overly modest in ranking your English as a 2. It should be at least a 3.

I can understand what you said about Spanish. I'm somewhat fluent in French, and because of that, I can usually understand the general gist of what's being said if I'm shown something written in Italian. But that's only with regards to reading comprehension. When it comes to understanding spoken Italian, I really don't have a clue what they're saying!

The real reason I came here is because of the discussion about gay-rights. Although you may simply be a straight person with a great deal of interest in gay issues, your talk page would seem to imply that you're gay. Of course I may be mistaken about that, yet I won't apologize for that mistake, because that would imply that being mistaken for being gay is some sort of insult, which it absolutely is not!

In any case, I find myself in a rather unique position when it comes to many issues, including gay-rights. Generally speaking, I consider myself to be a rather "right-wing, Republican, social conservative". Yet there are certain areas where I almost completely disagree with other right-wing, Republican, social conservatives. One of the areas is gay-rights. If you're curious, some other areas where I strongly disagree are:

-Gun Control: I'm actually quite radically anti-gun. I think guns should be banned outright, and that the Second Amendment should be repealed.

-Capital Punishment: Though perhaps in principle I believe that a cold-blooded murderer deserves to die, in practice far too many innocent people are mistakenly executed. It's a real tragedy, and for that reason I'm against capital punishment.

-Abortion: I'm moderately and modestly pro-choice. I think that women should ultimately have a right to choose, yet I'm saddened by each and every abortion. To me, an abortion is a tragedy, although sometimes it's a necessary tragedy. Yes, women should have the right to choose, yet it disgusts me when happily married couples decide to get an abortion just because having a kid at that point in time is "inconvenient". Shame on them! Abortions may be necessary under certain circumstances, and that's why I think they should be legal, but by no means is an abortion a "happy" thing to be celebrated, as some people seem to feel.

So as you can see, though I consider myself a "right-wing, Republican, social conservative", in very many cases I'm not. It's actually rather confusing, with all these exceptions, I sometimes wonder if I can even qualify as a "right-wing, Republican, social-conservative" at all!

But you're question about the gay adoption seems to have thrown me back into the traditional "right-wing, Republican, social-conservative" camp. I honestly try my best to be as accepting as possible, but there are times when I'm reminded that beneath it all, I'm still a "right-wing, Republican, social-conservative".

I hope that whatever comes of our little "gay-rights" discussion on the RefDesk, that you understand that I place an extremely high value on honesty, and, though I sincerely hope this doesn't happen, should my remarks or position offend you in any way, I apologize in advance. By no means do I intend to be hurtful in any way by my remarks, and I only hope that my honesty will be appreciated, rather than hurtful. Loomis 00:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Lewis

Thanks for ranking me as a 3, Lewis, but it´s often so frustrating to think clear thoughts and not be able to explain them in English that I would be lying to myself if I said I can contribute with an advanced level of English. I just can´t... Well, maybe I just have too sophisticated thoughts and it´s not my English level which is in the way, but the fact that I must have an exceptional knowledge of the language to express them. See how modest I really am?
Notwithstanding the above, I am constantly learning more and one day I will change that userbox.
I don´t think French and Italian are as similar to each other as Spanish and Portuguese. When I hear people speaking Spanish, I do have a clue what they´re saying! Look at this example of a text in both Spanish and Portuguese from the article on Differences between Spanish and Portuguese:

Pero, a pesar de esta variedad de posibilidades que la voz posee, sería muy pobre instrumento de comunicación si no contara más que con ella. La capacidad de expresión del hombre no dispondría de más medios que la de los animales. La voz, sola, es para el hombre apenas una materia informe, que para convertirse en un instrumento perfecto de comunicación debe ser sometida a un cierto tratamiento. Esa manipulación que recibe la voz son las "articulaciones".

Porém, apesar desta variedade de possibilidades que a voz possui, seria um instrumento de comunicação muito pobre se não contasse com mais além dela. A capacidade de expressão do homem não disporia de mais meios que a dos animais. A voz, sozinha, é para o homem apenas uma matéria informe, que para se converter num instrumento perfeito de comunicação deve ser submetida a um certo tratamento. Essa manipulação que a voz recebe são as "articulações".

It´s like the same language written by a dyslexic person twice. Now, you´re right when you say it´s harder to understand what they´re saying. But I think within only three or four months living in Argentina I would be pretty much as fluent in Spanish as a 10-year-old Argentinian.
I´m gay. I guess I never wrote that on Wikipedia before. That´s the very first time, and as far as I know, it will be recorded here for... ever. I don´t know why I´m saying that, sounds like an important deal. But it really isn´t. In fact, one of the reasons why I don´t state in my user page that I am gay is that I don´t want people to think that I think this is a huge part of who I am. That´s really just one aspect of me. I don´t even know if it´s a part of who "I" really am or just a way the world shows itself to me, i.e., a way in which men happen to be attractive. (this sentence was so obscure that maybe no one else would understand what I meant)
Who cares if no one understands! You obviously have a thought in your mind that's very significant to you. It's true, I didn't quite understand what you meant, just as I didn't quite understand your RefDesk question about having amnesia for a year. You obviously have a unique mind, with rather profound thoughts, yet often you have trouble putting those thoughts into words. Just please, rather than just dismissing it and crossing it out, try your best to better explain yourself. Don't worry, I'm a very patient person, and even if it takes three or four or however many attempts, I'm sure I'll eventually develop a decent grasp of what you're saying. It's just like your question about my thoughts on gay adoption. Although I feel that a child is best off with a mother-figure and a father-figure, I just couldn't translate those feelings into a rational, logical argument, so I felt compelled to retract them. But that's different. We were talking about the law there, and I don't feel it's legitimate to have a law that's based only on a "feeling" but can't be properly and logically expressed as having an objective rationale.
On the other hand, when we're not talking about the law, but just talking about subjective opinion, it's ok if you can't explain it. For example, I love Cantonese food, but I hate Thai food. I can't tell you why, all I can tell you is that I find Cantonese food delicious, and I find Thai food extremely unappetizing. I don't have to give some logical argument to justify it, that's just how I feel, and that's that. Similarly, I'm very attracted to women, especially those that are my "type", but I have absolutely no logical way of explaining why. And as you said, being attracted to women, though an important part of who I am, is but one characteristic of very, very many that define me. I'm also a Jew, a Canadian, a non-practicing lawyer, a son, a brother, an uncle and numerous other things.
I just have two questions for you, and as always, I'll repeat that I respect privacy, so it's entirely up to you to answer:
I get the impression that you're quite a bit younger than me. I'm 33. How old are you? (My apologies if you're actually older than me! No insult intended!)
What's your first name? (No last names necessary!)
I understand what you say about your uniqueness. In Latin American politics, we all (ok, some of us) realize now that for us "right-wing" and "left-wing" mean absolutely nothing. They were once useful labels but now make no sense whatsoever. I could give you thousands of examples, like president of Venezuela Hugo Chavez who wants to implement communism but doesn´t give a damn about gay rights and president Lula, about whom there is a great discussion about whether he is a leftist or a rightist. Maybe in Canada they make some sense yet, but the way I see it labels just prevent us from getting to the point.
I have no opinion yet on the gun policy. I´m against capital punishment as well. I think of abortion kind of like you do, but I could elaborate it further another time.
I truly understand your last paragraph. I know you don´t mean to be hartful! I find honesty good as well. You said nothing so far that could offend me for being gay and, if you do some day, I´ll tell you and ask for you to explain better what you said and we can talk until one out of four things happens:
-I understand you meant another thing.
-You understand you´re wrong and change your mind.
-I understand I´m wrong and change my mind.
-We agree that we disagree so deeply on any really important subject that we can´t do anything about it.
I don´t think that last one is likely to ever happen at all! A.Z. 01:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I should clarify a few of my views, and as well, I'm interested in yours. I'm not 100% against capital punishment. Like I said, in principle I'm for it, the only reason I'm against it is out of concerns that innocent people may be mistakenly executed, (in fact this has happened many times in the US), and that I'd rather have a million guilty people go free, than to have one innocent person executed.

In fact, according to the religious laws of my people, as well as the secular laws of our country (Israel), capital punishment is almost banned except in very exceptional cases.

For example, in its entire history, Israel only executed one person: Adolph Eichmann. Even terrorists are never executed.

As for our religious law, capital punishment is extremely rare. A very stringent set of circumstances have to exist before a person can be executed. 1) The person has to share his plans to murder with two witnesses, even before murdering. 2) The witnesses have to make it clear to the murderer that what he is about to do is forbidden by God. 3) The murderer has to acknowledge that he understands that God forbids murder, but that he's going to go ahead with it anyway. 4) The murder must be witnessed, and finally, 5) The murdered must confess to have committed the murder. Only then is capital punishment allowed.

Therefore, when I say "I'm against capital punishment", in rare circumstances such as Adolph Eichmann, as well as those that qualify under Jewish law as I described it, I accept capital punishment as appropriate and just.

Please elaborate on your feeling about abortion. I'd like to see how similar they are to mine.

As for the gay-rights issue, if you've noticed, I felt compelled to retract my exception concerning adoption, as I just couldn't find enough of an objective rationale for it. I still believe that every child deserves to have a mother-figure and a father-figure, but I just can't put that "feeling" into an objective rationale for why it gay adoption shouldn't be allowed. And I strongly believe that all laws must have an objective rationale to be legitimate. I therefore retracted that exception.

What are your thoughts on the subject? What about my reasoning for why gays shouldn't be in the military? Is my point a fair one that you can understand and accept or do you consider it a bit "homophobic"? I'm very interested in your thoughts on the manner, as I'd like to make sure my positions on certain issues are objective, fair, and not bigoted in any way.

Keep in touch!

Lewis Loomis 21:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


Hi, Lewis! I have been really busy lately. I just started my first job, the one I talk about on my user page. I´m also going to college, so I just don´t have the time to reply to your messages on week days. I´ll try to reply little by little, since there are so many subjects we´re talking about at the same time. I hope you understand.
Your belief that all laws should have an objective rationale and your retraction on the gay adoption issue suggests to me that you have a cognitive bias, the omission bias (take a look at the article). Here´s a part of the article: "The Omission Bias is the tendency to judge harmful actions as worse, or less moral than equally harmful omissions (inactions.)" If you really decide not to support any laws that you can´t explain rationally, you will be omitting yourself from dealing with the serious problems that you perceive in society. Not having a rational explanation just doesn´t cut it as an excuse. If you really believe that being raised by single people and gay couples is really harmful to children and you don´t even try to support the law forbidding it just because it is based on a subjective feeling, you will be accomplice to the very crime that the law which you imagined should punish. You will see children being raised in a way you think is bad for them and you will do nothing about it just because you don´t have a rational argument to explain your position.
Furthermore, every law is utterly based on feelings, even the most rationally explained laws. That´s because we must take certain premises for granted and then from that premises get rationally to the conclusions. But the premises, those you can´t prove. It´s hard if not impossible to prove one should care for one´s life and one should care about other people. People just do it because they feel that´s the right thing. And that´s the base of the laws. I don´t think you see a problem in making a law saying it´s wrong to rape, or making a law saying it´s wrong to kill, or making a law saying it´s wrong to punch your mother in the face even if you don´t give everyone a rational explanation for that.
Maybe what you´re talking about is that you can´t make the rational connection between some most basic premises (like caring for other people and therefore caring for children´s well being) and the conclusion that gay people should not be allowed to adopt children. I mean, maybe what you can´t do is to figure out by which manner gay adoption means not caring for the children´s well being. But is it really a good reason to, say, not vote against gay adoption in a plebiscite and not defend a law prohibiting gay adoption on the RefDesk?
I really want to talk about everything else. I just can´t right now. Please, answer this one reply if you have the time. I´ll try to come back here tomorrow morning. I´m 18 years old and my name is Artur, which is Arthur without the "H" because in Portuguese we don´t have the "th" sound and so the pronounciation is the same. I had some comments about my name, but they´re not that important right now. Bye now! A.Z. 10:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey Artur! Please stop worrying that what you're saying is wrong or offensive! I've rarely come across someone who is in fact so supportive as you are! Yes, there's a lot of crap going on because of Clio. How can I sum it up? She's very smart, but she just doesn't seem to be able to ever admit that she's wrong about anything, and whenever I disagree with her it always gets extremely personal. It's driving me nuts actually. I really don't dislike her, I just wish she'd quit thinking about our debates as some sort of pissing contest! When somebody points out that my argument may be wrong, I take it seriously, and if I'm indeed wrong, I admit it. And if I believe I'm right, I thank them for the criticism, but respectfully disagree. That's all I'm asking for from her.
Originally I was rather impressed by her intelligence. I even gave her a barnstar, one which I don't intend to erase or anything, because I still think she's very intelligent. At first the topics where we disagreed were rather silly. But then she began making statements that I found very disturbing about an issue that I'm very sensitive too - Nazism, the Third Reich and the Holocaust. Anyway, pretty much everyone else seems to think I'm being either vindictive, or paranoid, or whatever awful yet ridiculous things they can dream up. I really don't understand it. It's just that whenever she says something I find offensive, I feel compelled to react, yet every time I react, I'm told that I'm "out-to-get-her" or something ridiculous like that. I'm really not! I honestly think she's very intelligent, but just needs to mature a bit and admit that she can be wrong sometimes. Even my supporters tell me I should just ignore her and forget about the whole thing. And I've tried! I even wrote a personal apology on her talk page! Yet she just won't quit making offensive statements. Anyway, I'm going on too long about this Artur. It's not your problem so I shouldn't burden you with it.
As for the gay adoption thing, I'm really surprised by your response (though by no means offended by it!) I was completely surprised that a gay person would actually be telling me that it's ok to support laws restricting the rights of gay people, even laws that I can't even rationalize! We'll have to discuss this a lot more, because your view was so totally unexpected (but again, NOT OFFENSIVE! Please, Artur, never assume you're offending me. I don't even think it's possible for you to offend me, because you seem to be such a kind person.)
I'm just wondering, though. Based on what you explained above, and please understand that this is purely hypothical because I'd never support something like this, but how would you react if I told you that "I think there should be a law against being gay, because I just feel that being gay in unnatural and isn't right". Of course I'd never support that, yet according to you, if I actually felt that way, then I should support it. That's the part I don't understand. Don't you believe that individuals have certain rights that are nobody else's business?
Thanks for you support at the RefDesk talk page, I REALLY appreciate it!
Lewis
Loomis 02:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Lewis! I´m glad you replied!

I am gay. That doesn´t mean I don´t care about the kids! If gay parenting is somehow worse for them than straight parenting, I want to know. Of course there's much to be said about this yet.

I don´t really know how I´m gonna answer that last question of yours. I'll need to think about it for a while.

We are discussing each time more things, do you realize that? I am yet to explain to you my positions on death penalty, abortion and gays in the military, and we haven´t really discussed whether it is right to forbid gay adoption or not. On my last post above, I was just pointing that the fact that you can´t rationalize your position is far from a good reason to retract from it. Not that I agree with your position (I don't even understand it completely!). The fact is I just don't feel like you do about this: I don't feel there is a problem with children being raised by single parents and gay couples. So, I probably would be pleased if you said you didn't feel that way anymore, but it is hardly pleasent to know that the only reason why you don't support gay adoption is that you can't make up or find out a proper rational explanation for it. If it were like that, you would still feel sorry for kids raised by single parents and gay couples, and that is a real issue we should discuss.

We'll have to discuss it a lot more! I want to understand you. I'd like to know better what is it that you feel when you think of a child being raised by single parents and gay couples.

Changing the subject: I found out a beta version of a sort of Wikiforum on Wikimedia. It has an ugly name for now (Wikireason), but the name is not that important and it can be changed one day. I posted about it on the Reference Desk talk page. People seem to support the idea. I'm excited about this. A.Z. 22:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey Artur,
I think I'm a lot like you. When I first thought up the wikiforum thing, I thought that most would find it pretty silly. It's good to get such interest! Positive or negative, at least people aren't dismissing it as ridiculous!
It's really busy at work, so for the next little while I may not be around much. Besides, with all these "rules" at the RefDesk, the place is starting to get duller and duller by the day. And besides, there seems to be a certain contributor who can pretty much answer any question that comes her way, whether it's the right answer or a wrong answer doesn't seem to matter, or something in between: a good answer that can use some input from other contributors, well, whatever kind of answer it is, if I dare comment, it'll invariably look like I'm not letting bygones be bygones, and so someone will inevitably give me some silly warning to "stay away" from her. Well, that would be quite a bit easier if she didn't answer every damn question!
But I'm tired of the fighting. It's now somebody elses turn to dare disagree with her and face all the personal attacks (which for some reason go completely unnoticed) from her and her supporters. I've been called so many names by her I can't even remember them all anymore. A stalker, a predator, a misogynist, an intellectually impoverished nerdy wanker, an emotionally unstable obsessive...Just a couple of days ago, you saw it! Friday said that I don't have much to contribute to Wikipedia and should probably leave! Yet does any of that violate WP:NPA? Of course not!
Just please don't let this give you the impression that I'm bitter or anything. The whole thing is too silly to get me bitter. Besides, I've been through law school and I must have read several thousand cases. In many of them the class and the professor just couldn't figure out what the judge must have been smoking to have arrived at such a ridiculously wrong decision. And these are judges! Some of them Supreme Court of Canada Justices! To expect any better from Wiki Admins would be foolish. They make their mistakes, and I guess we all just have to live with it. On the other hand, I'm a firm believer that the truth eventually comes out one way or the other. I just didn't realize that I may have only been delaying it from coming by distracting everybody with my constant less-than-perfect challenges. I think it's best to just leave things alone for a while. Inevitably some other poor sap will get just as irritated as I was and take my place. All I know is that my job is done.
Besides, I've always believed that just one kind intelligent friend can compensate for 1000 idiots. I'm lucky to have a few around here actually, and you're the latest one to be added to the list.
Anyway, sorry for the venting, but just don't worry, I'm not going anywhere, I'm just taking a rest for a little while. But as always, I'll be checking my talkpage and my watchlist to see if you or any of the kinder people I've met here have sent me any messages.
Hope to hear from you soon!
Lewis
Loomis 13:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be dealing with all of this with a lot of maturity. I hope I can find out how to do the same, now that I am having trouble on the Reference Desk as well. I would like to think of the problems I have as being silly, but I can't help finding them very important. I am very glad to be one of your intelligent friends who can compensate for 1000 idiots! A.Z. 01:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Socratic barnstar

What you said there resonates with my effort to mediate in an ethnic conflict (the one in Sri Lanka). (I also made the experience how frusting it can be when people don't reply.) The way you write seems like you know nonviolent communication; did you learn that or are you a natural talent? When you write about how important it is to get honest feedback, I also see the same intention as when I wrote User:SebastianHelm/principles#PINOT, although you say it more poetically. — Sebastian 01:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It was so good to read this! I am so tired now and I have to sleep, so I cannot respond further now, but be sure I'll come back here either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow and write you a nice response to this. I want very much to talk with you about this subject! A.Z. 02:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm still tired. I hope you're not in a hurry. I do really want to read the article about nonviolent communicantion, but I am too tired for that right know because I worked all day and didn't get much sleep. I'd prefer we met in person and discussed this, this would be much better, but you live in Washington and may not have the money to either come to Brazil or buy me a ticket.
I never studied nonviolent communication but, as I said, I am interested in learning more about the subject. I'll read the article later.
It's nice that you find my writing poetic. Thank you. A.Z. 02:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Now I read the article and I'm reading the External Links. I read this: "When we focus on clarifying what is being observed, felt, and needed, rather than on diagnosing and judging, we discover the depth of our own compassion." That's true and I think that's what I was trying to do, for instance, on the discussion above on this talk page about adoption by gay couples and single people. I wanted Loomis to tell me what he feels when he thinks of children being raised this way. I personally don't feel the way he does. Instead of us discussing scientific arguments on the matter, it should be good to try to find out from where are those feelings coming. I don't know if you get what I mean, though. I'm gonna keep reading, since I found this topic very interesting. Where did you study nonviolent communication? A.Z. 19:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Chat desk"

I deleted your "chat desk". Wikipedia is not a website for sitting around and chatting. Esperanza had a "coffee lounge" for chatting at one point, but it was deleted. Wikipedia really isn't for these sorts of things. --Deskana (ya rly) 01:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

So let's meet for a coffee and discuss this somewhere outside of Wikipedia? A.Z. 01:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't be sarcastic, I'm being serious. --Deskana (ya rly) 02:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
So was I. Do you support the idea of a Wikiforum of the Wikimedia Foundation for sitting around and chatting? A.Z. 02:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stop edit warring

Stop edit warring over inappropriate ref desk content. This is disruptive. Friday (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am having a conversation with eric on the Reference Desk talk page. Express your concerns there if you think the content is inapproptiate, Friday. A.Z. 18:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I have done so. I have also expressed my concerns about your inappropriate reverting here on your talk page, where such things belong. Friday (talk) 18:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stay cool

AZ, I have been following the discussions on Wikipedia talk:Reference desk. I sense you may be feeling bullied, angry and frustrated right now. If that is true, then I understand exactly how you feel. Some of the editors you have come across at the RD talk page seem to like provoking other people just to see what will happen. Don't worry - the RD talk page is not typical of the rest of Wikipedia. Most Wikipedia editors are polite, considerate and helpful. My advice is to walk away from the argument, and do something more productive elsewhere in Wikipedia for a while. You will feel better, the other editors will eventually get bored with deleting things from the RDs, and life will go back to normal. Gandalf61 20:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

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