Talk:Aşık Mahzuni Şerif
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[edit] Comments
[edit] He's Kurdish
this man is Kurdish if anybody thinks he's Turkish provide evidence. the village of Bercenek in Kahramanmaraş province is entirely kurdish. Ozgur Gerilla 13:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not interested in his ethnic background but all his works are in Turkish and he is a citizen of Turkey so he is also a representative of Turkish culture. Village of Bercenek may be entirely Kurdish as you say but I did not use the word "Turkish" as an indicator of ethnicity (as you see I did not delete the info. about his ethnic origins)--Hattusili 13:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
and also some sources say his ancestors were Turkmen, for example:
- 1940'ın başlarında Mahzuni Şerif Berçenek köyünde doğar. Barginekli Ağuçan Türkmenleri'nden olup, nene tarafı Varto / Hormekan Aşireti'nden Razey'e (Irazca hatun) mensuptur.
(Mahzuni Şerif was born in Berçenek village at the beginning of 40's. He is from Barginekli Ağucan Turkmens and his ancestors from Grandmother side are members of Hormekan Tribe and from Razey (Irazca Hatun)[1]
and as you know he was prosecuted by DGM (National Security Court) for his writing in Kızıldeli, in this essay he says:
Türkiye Alevilerinin yolunun gerçek Ali’ci yol olduğunu savunmak ve yaymak isterim. Çünkü Ali’nin başlattığı cemahiriyel vukuat (halkcı hareket) Atatürk’ün noktaladığı Cumhuriyetin mayasını hazırlamıştır.--Hattusili 13:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Could you please provide links to your source because I have reason to believe he's Kurdish Ethnic origin other then that what culture he represents doesn't bother me at this stage. It is important to be clear what he is and what he represents. I'll also try to dig information out of his written work. It is important not to just classify him as Turkish and rep of the Turkish culture because there is millions of Kurds who cannot speak Kurdish due to Turkification. After this issue is cleared I think we need to improve the article more on his work as it is stub. Ozgur Gerilla 14:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You are right he may be Kurdish and it can be mentioned in the article but without omitting that he was a republicionist Turkish citizen. I hope from now on we can cooperate to improve the article together.--Hattusili 14:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You can find the full text of his essay here: [2]--Hattusili 14:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. I hope to work with every user to improve every single article because I care about Wikipedia and especially it being unbiased. Ozgur Gerilla 14:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] He is a proud TURKMEN
- Kurdish? how on Earth is he Kurdish, does he sing in Kurdish? say he's Kurdish? ever mention that he's Kurdish?
He clearly states he is a proud Turk who loves Turkey and is from a Turkmen village, people of Kahramanmaras are patriots stop these lies please.
[edit] Cleanup
Here is a summary of my last edit:
- Some cleanup made.
- Biased POVs replaced with cited facts.
- Birth and death dates are fixed.
- Poor grammar fixed.
- Places that required citation are marked, which will be removed if citations fail to be provided.
What it stil needs:
- More information about his life and work.
Kertenkelebek(talk) 11:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me but what biased POVs? could you be specific. Mahzuni Serif was Kurdish ethnic origin this should be in the article but of course his works was in Turkish. Ozgur Gerilla 22:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Saying that he's kurdish is a biased POV, how can one be both from Barginekli Ağucan Turkmens and be kurdish at the same time? But most probably this question is beyond the scope of your understanding, otherwise one would easily converge to the same conclusion just by reading the first paragraph once. So let me instead answer it for you: No way. KertenkelebekⓉ 07:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- You better stop the insulting. He's from Berçenek- Afşin There is thousands of Kurds from Afşin who live in London. Now my point is if his from Berçenek he can be a Kurd as people say that is a Kurdish village. If you can provide a good source (not an unofficial website) to your argument instead of insulting me then I could understand. Ozgur Gerilla 12:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you have official or unofficial any information about him being of kurdish origin? Knowing a couple of kurdish people from the same village does not count all as kurdish. If you want more, read this (I assume you know Turkish) about his life and history of the village he was born in detail:
"...Buraya "Hasan Obası" denmektedir. Burası göçer Çilingirler' in bulunduğu, otlak bir arazidir. Bunun için adına "Çilingir Çayırı" da denir. Bu gün burası hala Çilingir Çayırı olarak anılmaktadır. Seyyit Mehmet' in türbesinin bulunduğu bu köye şimdi ise, "Hasan Köyü" denilmektedir. Bütün Elbistan / Malatya ovalarında ve dağlarında o günün büyük mürşidi ve evliyası olarak bilinen Seyyid Hacı Mehmet Dede, Aşık Mahzuni Şerif ' in babası Zeynel' in, öz dedesidir.
Seyyid Mehmet'in 1800'li yılların başında vefat etmesiyle, Hasan Köy'de asimile edilerek Sünniliği kabul eden Cırıklı ve Ağuçan Türkmenleri burada kalır. Ancak, Oniki İmam'a bağlılığını sürdürmek isteyen, Kocalar ve bir kısım Ağuçan Türkmenleri, Koç Obası ve Alhaslı yaylalarına dağılır.
Sonunda, Afşin'in 15 km. kuzeydoğusunda, küçük bir tepe üzerine gelirler ve Hozat / Barginek Köyü'nün anısına Berçenek Köyü'nü kurarlar. Elbistan'a; Dersim'den, Horasan'dan, Hatay'dan akın etmiş bütün Türkmen ve Yörük Alevileri asimileye uğrar ve köylere; camiler, imamlar tahsis edilir. Bu arada Berçenek köyü de üç-dört çeşit aşiretin karmasından meydana gelir (Ağuçan, Cırıklı, Kocalar, Savranlar, Ellezler). Bu aşiretler uzun zaman kök kültürlerini devam ettirirler. Ancak, bunlarla birlikte, Maraş Sünni Türkmen Köyleri'nden gelen bir kısım Sünni Yörük uzantılar da bu köye yerleşirler.
1940'ın başlarında Mahzuni Şerif bu köyde doğar. Barginekli Ağuçan Türkmenleri'nden olup, nene tarafı Varto / Hormekan Aşireti'nden Razey'e (Irazca hatun) mensuptur..."
ref: Zaman, Süleyman. MAHZUNİ ŞERİF Yaşamı / DünyaGörüşü / Şiirleri, Başkent Mabaacılık, Ankara
PS:There's no such thing as "kurdish village" in the Republic of Turkey. KertenkelebekⓉ 13:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
You may agree that there is villages in the Republic of Turkey that is inhabited predominantly by the Kurds. Those are what I call Kurdish villages. I have not argued that I know his real ethnicity you are the one who is and giving us a ordinary website. I recommend you provide a better source before I take action. Ozgur Gerilla 17:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
"Action" isn't that what you PKK supporters also use in referral to PKK murders? How ironic... Anyway, what I gave as reference to the paragraph above is a book by "Süleyman Zaman", with the title "MAHZUNİ ŞERİF Yaşamı / DünyaGörüşü / Şiirleri", printed by "Başkent Mabaacılık, Ankara". A printed book is reference enough, if you don't believe it take it and read, that's your problem, however you can also find exactly the same paragraph at his official site under "hayatı" subsection, 3rd page, 1-3 paragraphs if you care a little to read. KertenkelebekⓉ 18:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
You're totally paranoid and you may need physical therapy. Ozgur Gerilla 16:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, now, we come to the main issue. You keep providing me of source that is probably biased or as the previous example an ordinary side which any user could develop spending a little time. Therefore, I still expect an official source from you and as I could nor none of you could provide this information we shall delete his information on his ethnicity. Merci boucu'm. Ozgur Gerilla 16:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not presenting the site as the source to you, though it's the official internet site of Aşık Mahzuni Şerif. What I gave as reference is a book by "Süleyman Zaman", with the title "MAHZUNİ ŞERİF Yaşamı / DünyaGörüşü / Şiirleri", printed by "Başkent Mabaacılık, Ankara" which you can also read the relevant paragraph from his official site for the ease of yours. So I'm repeating it once again for you to understand: my reference is a printed book of which you can read the contents also on his official site. I hope repating twice is enough for you to understand. You're welcome. PS: Since you're also in the definition of "any user", could you build such a site as complex and comprehensive as the one I gave, spending only a "little time" yourself? I doubt it. KertenkelebekⓉ 13:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- May I remind you I'm a university student doing Msci in Computer Science. The source you're providing isn't stating his ethnicity [3] I don't know if you thought we won't check the source but as a curious user on the article I did and didn't find anything about his ethnicity. So, I have the right to remove it until you provide a better source. Ozgur Gerilla 11:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnicity, Language and Religion
Because we cannot find a good source to back his ethnicity we should mention the language of his work and his religion. this source states that his both Kizilbas and Alevi. Ozgur Gerilla 22:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
