User talk:71.137.207.147

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Elbing, Prussia: Comenius, Dury, Hartlib

Information for anyone interested in factual history, sources other than wikipedia

Thorn, Danzig, Elbing in Prussia. A Holy Roman Empire list of 1615 in the book Commentariorum Rerum Germanicarum Libri Tres specifically states Thorn, Danzig, Elbing in Prussia This work by historian Bertius also list the officers, towns, countries connected to SRI/HRE

A large number of articles on Comenius in Elbing

in answer to Friendly Neighbor the following records are posted here:

Danzig and Elbing on Maps and Inhabitants Records from 1600's

-- Labbas 8 September 2006

Historical Information on Comenius and Lissa

Comenius at Lissa- near Fraustadt and Glogau in dukedom of Glogau in Silesia

Lissa is 25 miles northeast of Glogau in Silesia

A 1615 map from Imperial Germany by historian Petrus Bertius shows Fraustadt (Lissa was not founded yet) included in Silesia [1] . It was in the Silesian Fuerstentum Glogau (dukedom, principality of Glogau. Glogau Fuerstentum existed since 1251 and from 1526-1742 it was governed by the Imperial House of Habsburg. From 1632 -34 it was the possession of the imperial field marshal Wallenstein and from 1642 to 1648 it was in possession of the Protestants of Europe under Sweden. This was exactly the time that Comenius worked for the Swedish state in Elbing, Prussia.

John Amos Comenius and a number of others had taken refuge during the Thirty Years War in what became known as Lissa and the city developed as a Protestant city, seperat from a Leszczyński estate. Both towns Fraustadt and Lissa were known as Silesian towns for their inhabitants who had come from Silesia. In 1628 thousands of Silesians from Fraustadt, Lissa, Meseritz area had already crossed the Oder river and settled at Forst in Lausitz/Brandenburg. With Reformation and Counter Reformation, partially settle after the Thirty Years War in 1648, many religious refugees moved back and forth across Europe.

Lissa and Fraustadt near Glogau, Silesia on maps

  • [[2] Fraustadt on 1615 map of Holy Roman Empire in dukedom of Glogau, Silesia - Lissa was founded later
  • [3] Fraustadt and Lissa on 1753 London map
  • [4] Fraustadt and Lissa on 1882 German Empire map

My aim is to show interested persons the locations of the places (Lissa, Frausatdt, Glogau).

The first in 1615 shows Fraustadt (Lissa came later). It shows that the borders of Silesia and surrounding areas fluctuated. This was standard in Europe, because there were no nation states as today. Territories were individually owned or loaned by emperors, kings, princes, prince bishops, electors, margraves dukes etc. The whole list can be seen at the Holy Roman Empire list link above. Territories would often be sold or traded, often one part of town belonged to different landowners than other parts of the same town.

When Comenius went to these areas (Elbing, Lissa they were under Swedish Protestant rule, as the northern European countries wanted to remain Protestant and therefore fought against the imperial Habsburg forces under Wallenstein etc. 90 percent of all of German territory had already become protestant, but due to the counter reformation it ended with about half and half.

I posted a number of google sites (above) on the subject for people to read. I would love to , but I do not have time for endless debates. Perhaps ProudPomeranian and Friendly Neighbour can get together and debate endlessly. So again-Have a nice Day

Are you honest enough to admit what your maps actually show?
  1. The first shows that Lissa (Leszno) was not part of Silesia in 1615 (take note of the border line north of Glogau and that where Leszno is located there is the map legend - hence no Lissa on the map). Fraustadt (Wschowa) on the other hand was a border fortress in territory claimed by both Silesia and Poland as the article on Wschowa mentions - so presumably each side drew it on its side of the border. Take note that the map places Fraustadt (symbolised by the little church-like symbol to the right of the town name) just south of the border, meaning that Lissa being to north-east must be on the other side of the border, exactly under the legend decoration.
  2. The second map does show "Lissa" and "Fraustat" (sic!), but both north of the border line in the territory marked on the map - in very clear letters - both as Poland and Great Poland (the province name). I believe it proves even to you that in 1753 Lissa belonged to Poland. As you like to say "End of discussion".
  3. The third map is from the time when Lissa belonged to Germany (1882). But even here both Lissa and Fraustadt are clearly marked as being in the province of Posen (which was the renamed former Great Poland province of Poland) unlike the nearby Glogau which is in the province of Silesia.
That a town is close to another town does not make them belong to the same country. And did you use any brainpower to deduct why were the protestant refugees from Silesia settling in Leszno (Lissa) during the 30 Years War? The answer is simple: because it was on the other side of the border in a country not taking part in the war. If Leszno was in the Habsburg ruled Silesia it would not be a safe refugee at the time, especially to Protestants. And do you really claim that the owners of Leszno (since the medieval times until 1738), the Leszczyński family (named after the town!) which gave Poland a king, Stanisław Leszczyński, were foreigners in Poland???
ProudPomeranian 07:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edits to Comenius

Dear User:71.137.207.147, please learn some history before you try again changing the page. You can start from Wikipedia. Gdańsk (Danzig) and Elbląg (Elbing) were both in Poland during the life of Comenius. From the article about History of Gdańsk:

In 1440 Danzig joined the nearby Hanseatic cities of Elbing and Thorn (Toruń) to form the Prussian Confederation, which rebelled (February 1454) against the Teutonic Order's rule and sought protection from King Casimir IV of Poland. An "Act of Incorporation of Royal Prussia" was signed in Kraków (March 6, 1454), recognizing Pomerelia as part of the Polish Kingdom. The resulting Thirteen Years' War ended with the Order's defeat and surrender to the Polish crown (Second Peace of Toruń, 19 October 1466) of its rights in Pomerelia and the rest of the area, subsequently known as Royal Prussia.

The rest of former state of the Teutonic Knights became Ducal Prussia. From the article about it:

Ducal Prussia (Polish: Prusy Książęce), or the Duchy of Prussia (German: Herzogtum Preußen (help·info)), was a duchy established in 1525 in the eastern part of Prussia, after western Prussia had become the Polish province of Royal Prussia according to the Peace of Toruń (Thorn) in 1466. The first Protestant (Lutheran) state, the capital of Ducal Prussia was Königsberg.

Take note: neither Gdańsk nor Elbląg belonged to Ducal Prussia, the only state of the name at the time (Royal Prussia was simply a province of Poland). Gdańsk had a great authonomy but it certainly belonged to Poland, not Prussia and by it own choice. I have doubts whether there were any official city names at the time. The Poles (including the court of the king to whom the cities belonged) used obviously latinized versions of the Polish versions (Gedania in the case of Gdańsk) in Latin documents and the Polish name in speach. One can therefore argue that Gdańsk and Elbląg were the only official names at the time (if anything like an official name existed then). Most of the inhabitants spoke German and used the name of Danzig (therefore Dantiscum in Latin documents!) and Elbing. In short, before you start revising history again, please do some reseach. If you do not believe Wikipedia, buy any good history of Gdańsk/Danzig, Prussia or Poland. Thank you. Friendly Neighbour 16:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear User Friendly Neighbor, following are some factual records. The ones you listed are wikipedia material and posted at the bottom of each wikipedia article is a disclaimer warning.

Danzig records of inhabitants since Reformation

Elbing records of inhabitants since reformation

You might also look at Free City of Danzig, particularly read the section Danzig 1557-1660 and the external link.

By the way, have you looked at actual original city records of Danzig and Elbing? If not, go some day and look at and read records from Danzig and Elbing (going back many centuries) in todays Museums at Gdansk and Elblag. Let me give you a hint, a person who can only read Polish-language (or Latin ) will be of no help to you.

Somewhere here at wikipedia I have also read User: Sca's advice to some people, if you want factual history, get some history books, wikipedia is not the place. I will also not go into the problem with large amounts of onesided wikipedia entries, dictated by a particular group of people, which produce articles, such as the ones you referred to.

But I also suggest, that you read a number of history books, that you go look at factual records and that you do that for an extended time period. Perhaps then you will come up with some more factual knowledge

Labbas 04 September 2006

I'll answer you in points:
  • You need not prove that Germans were the majority in both cities at the time. I said it myself above. That does not disprove that both the cities belonged to Poland at the times of Comenius. They did. You cannot change the history, however painful it is to you.
  • Again, the original records of the cities are not relevant here. We are not discussing the ethnic composition of 17th century Danzig or Elbing but which country they belonged to.
  • Actually if you looked at the documents of the time you might have notices how many white eagels (the emblems of Polish kings) they have. You might have wondered why there are no emblems of Prussia on the documents of the era. The reason was simple. Elbing did not belong to Prussia until 1772 and Gdańsk until 1793.
  • I do not understand why you refer to me the article on the Free City of Danzig. The article says (rightly) that Danzig (Gdańsk) was a free city twice in its history: 1807-1815 and 1920-1939. Comenius lived in the 17th century, when Gdańsk was most certainly the richest (and biggest) city of a state known themn as Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which we refer to as Poland here for simplicity. It's even listed as the biggest city on the table in the artice I linked in the previous sentence.
  • It seems funny to me that you claim Wikipedia is not factual when it suits you and then refer me to a Wikipedia article.
  • You did not read my advice to you? At least not to the end? Otherwise you would not advice me to read history books while I gave you the same advice yesterday ;-)
Best regards, Friendly Neighbour 05:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi again,

you seem to get a little confused, or perhaps you do not know, that the western Prussian state emblem or seal has been the Black Prussian Eagle, but with a sword arm, a raised arm holding a sword horizontal over the head and with the inscription TERRAE PRUSSIAE or Land Preussen (State of Prussia). The governor of western Prussia in the 15th century sealed the state documents with a seal Gubernatoris Terrarum Prusie (seal of the governor of Prussia).

I cannot really fault you for being a bit mixed up, for in 1562 already a Danzig representative, named Georg Kleefeld, at Petrikau had to make it clear that the (state seal) Sigilum of Land Prussia are not under one Sigilum (seal) with Poland, because apparently some Poles already had tried to claim that at that time.

Both Prussian Eagles, the Black one of eastern or Ducal Prussia and the Black one with the sword arm from western Prussia, (by the 18th century also referred to as Prussia polnischen Anteils (by the Saxon imperial electors August, who happened to be also kings of Poland and Grand Dukes of Lithuania, etc) have been based on the Black Imperial eagle given to the Teutonic Order for Prussia by emperor Frederick II.

1586 at Thorn a new seal was established Sigillum Terrarum Prussiae which was for both parts of Prussia and was kept at Elbing. All laws, mandates etc in Prussia were sealed with this seal and not to be used for any documents with Polish language. Any law, mandate proposed in Prussia, that did not get this seal, did not become effective.

Independent status of western Prussia ended , when it joined the kingdom of Prussia in 1772 and turned the seal in.

In 1881 Westprussia , based on the former state seal of western Prussia until 1772, re-established the Black eagle with the sword arm.

When you talk about white eagle on documents flags, etc, do you mean white eagle on red? Such is the imperial eagle of the (imperial) city of Frankfurt am Main, for example, or the white eagle on blue of the (imperial) city of Schweinfurt and a number of other previous imperial places. So you see ,not only a black eagle was based on imperial status.

To your observation on the Free City of Danzig wikipedia article, sorry, I thought I did, anyway I meant to point you to the part and external link Danzig 1557-1660, in which it states Danzig had successfully defended her autonomy against the Polish monarchy.

Best regards, Labbas 05 September 2006

I know the emblem. And whose arm and sword do you think it represents? I'll give you a hint. The same king's whose crown was added to the city emblem of Gdańsk (or Danzig if you prefer) when it was incorporated to Poland. Before that the city emblem established at the time it belonged to the Teutonic Order was simply two crosses. Both the changes were done simultaneously. By the way, the arm with sword was also the ensign of the Polish Navy at the time. Therefore you may see (or maybe not) that a black Prussian eagle under the armed hand of the king of Poland is not a symbol of independent Prussia.
Generally, please stop wasting everyon'e time and start actually reading about the history of cities you rave so much about. Your comments like "some king of Poland was dux of westPrussia. Prussia was never Poland -until 1945 conquest by Communists" show a picture of someone who has no idea on what he is talking about. I do not want to spend another 30 minutes explaining to you the difference of status of various territories having Prussia in their names. It has nothing to do with the article about Comenius. And the borders of Poland in the 17th century are well known to historians and not prone to any revisions. Full stop. And if you don't believe neither Wikipedia nor me, maybe you'll believe the map of Poland in 17th century from the Library of Congress or this EuroAtlas mape of Europe in year 1600. Friendly Neighbour 17:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you deny all the history books there are? All the historical atlases? All relevant Wikipedia articles? What kind of historical revisionist are you?
If you do not believe modern historical maps, here is a map of Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania published by N. Vischer. Amsterdam, 17c.. If you know where Elbing is, you can see its inside the Polish borders. Take note that Prussia is also listed in the title of the map among provinces of Poland (Prussia, Cuiavia, Mazovia) in the map caption. Of course, feel free to deny this map. A good reason may be the name of the server ;-) Tschüss! Friendly Neighbour 19:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
And if you believe only the German sources, please look at this short Webpage about Elbing from a server named www.reise-nach-ostpreussen.de. It says: "In den Jahren 1466 bis 1772 gehörte Elbing zu Polen und wurde während der Herrschaft des Königs Sigismund ein wichtiger Kriegshafen.".
So please stop adding historical nonsenses to the page on Comenius. Thank you. Friendly Neighbour 19:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


I keep telling you, look for historical sources by historians. Hobby travel is fine for hobbies. The internet is full of hobbyists. Go look for primary sources. And please do not leave any more of your rather odd (to say it mildly) messages, I already wrote- end of discussion - that means I have already spent way too much time on this discussion.

Can't you understand that nobody questions the German majority in both cities in 17th century?
Now, the maps:
  • The first has no borders. In fact it seems to show that London and Paris belong to Germania. Please don't joke.
  • The second and fourth map clearly show the borders of the Teutonic Order and Poland in late 14th or early 15th century. They are made much later and were probably maps showing history not the present borders at the moment of its creation.
  • The third add fifth (two copies of the same map) are a real riot. They seem to be very ancient but the borders that show are obviously East Prussia and the Free City of Danzig glued together, that is the situation between 1920 and 1939. At no other time a state border cut off Danzig from its interior to the west. I believe it is some kind of Nazi pseudo-historical wall decoration, not a historical map.
Once more, why you disbelieve modern historians (Germam, Polish, British, just any) and believe undated maps of dubios authenticity bought by someone in an antique shop? Even borders on maps created actually in 17th are a dubious source for historians as thay may have been politically motivated at the time. Have you noticed that thay all are German made? Are German sources the only ones you accept? Friendly Neighbour 06:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Generally, on Wikipedia, primary sources and original research should be avoided (please read the relevant Wikipedia:No original research policy and Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline). Therefore maps of unknown authenticity, date of creation and (most importantly) aims of their authors should not be used here. I apologize for using first a 17th map of Poland - even if I did it as a desperate joke after proper secondary and tertiary sources did not convince you.
However, this is not an article on history of the cities or the surrounding land. This is an article on Commenius. The articles on Gdańsk, Elbląg, Royal Prussia, History of Poland etc. etc. state facts which are in direct contradiction with what you believe in. Why don't you continue the debate there, where people with some expertize on the subject can discuss it with you. Don't you see that even if you change the history of Danzig or Elbing in this article, you will only create a disparity between WP articles? If you really detected a conspiracy which falsified the history of Prussia, you should aim at correcting it on all the relevant articles. Why choose only one about... a Czech educator?
Therefore, please stop adding unsourced pseudo-history to the article on Comenius. If you continue, I will have to report you on the administrators' noticeboard page. Thank you. Friendly Neighbour 07:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To Friendly Neighbor

You would like me to believe you and show as proof this supposed map of 17th century and this supposed map of Europe in year 1600. Oh - dear - I took one look at them and they are 20/21 th century descriptions- assumptions- opinions - but they are not actual maps - One even has the year 2003 on it and one states no guarantee of complete accuracy

My advice, keep at it, in a number of years you might actually gain some knowledge of facts and not just of repeated opinions.

I applaud you for showing an interest and for trying.

Repeat - to Friendly Neighbor, And please do not leave any more of your rather odd (to say it mildly) messages, I already wrote- end of discussion - that means I have already spent way too much time on this discussion '

Stop plastering the Comenius article

Repeat - End of discussion - Labbas 08 September 2006


Repeat - to Friendly Neighbor, And please do not leave any more of your rather odd (to say it mildly) messages, I already wrote- end of discussion - that means I have already spent way too much time on this discussion

Repeat - End of discussion - Labbas 08 September 2006


I will not bother you any more. Just please stop making unsourced changes to Comenius. Thank you for attention. Friendly Neighbour 18:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A large number of articles on Comenius in Elbląg, Poland. by Space Cadet

This link by Space Cadet actually shows articles on Comenius in (Elbing) Elbląg and in Poland: A large number of articles on Comenius in Elbing now Elbląg and in Poland.

No, dear hardheaded Labbas: A large number of articles on Comenius in Elbląg, a city in Poland then and now, temporarily in Germany for a short period of 74 years. Space Cadet 21:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Space Cadet,

the google sites you posted (A large number of articles on Comenius in Elbing now Elbląg and in Poland.) seem to be nearly all wikipedia mirror sites. Those are copies of Tirid Tirid and who knows what other sockpuppets entries are constantly adding POV to the wikipedia articles, such as Elblag. That does not mean those mirror sites are correct, that only means they are copying y o u .


Sure, whatever, as long as you don't mess up articles with XIX century Prussian pseudo historiology.

Space Cadet 23:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

External Links: A number of sites with (f)actual information on John Dury, Samuel Hartlib and Comenius in Elbing, Prussia]

Regarding User Friendly Neighbor contributions has so far not taken the repeated advice to read up on factual history of Elbing/Elblag and he has posted a number of what I called rather odd remarks. I urged him repeatedly to stop plastering Comenius discussion and he finally did. He has not recanted. Whats more he has encouraged of all people Space Cadet (who makes it a hobby of filling wikipedia with 'rather one-side' often unfactual entries) to continue. Therefore I am posting this message here that I feel Friendly Neighbor needs to correct his re-entry on Comenius in Elbing and he needs to apologize. Labbas 12 September 2006

Again Information for anyone interested in factual history

[edit] Elbing, Prussia: Comenius, Dury, Hartlib

in answer to Friendly Neighbor the following records are posted here:

Danzig and Elbing on Maps and Inhabitants Records from 1600's

Warning against socketpuppetry

I warn you that I suspect User:Schwartz und Weiss is a sockpuppet account of yourself. In case you start to use it to wage a revert war, I'll have to ask the Wikipedia administrators to check whether both the accounts are operated from the same IP numbers. Please feel warned. Friendly Neighbour 18:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

For all I know User:Friendly Neighbour might be a replacement for Tirid Tirid or Molobo

User:Tirid Tirid is user User:Space Cadet

Historical Information on Comenius and Lissa

Comenius at Lissa- near Fraustadt and Glogau in dukedom of Glogau in Silesia

Lissa is 25 miles northeast of Glogau in Silesia

A 1615 map from Imperial Germany by historian Petrus Bertius shows Fraustadt (Lissa was not founded yet) included in Silesia

Note from User Szopen::Szopen: Leszno was of course already founded - it received city charter from Zygmunt the old in 1547, while forst mentioning of the settlement in Leszno came from the end of XIV century. We are not taking about Leszno settlement. Comenius and the Moravian Brothers settled at Lissa.

[5] . It was in the Silesian Fuerstentum Glogau (dukedom, principality of Glogau. Glogau Fuerstentum existed since 1251 and from 1526-1742 it was governed by the Imperial House of Habsburg. From 1632 -34 it was the possession of the imperial field marshal Wallenstein and from 1642 to 1648 it was in possession of the Protestants of Europe under Sweden. This was exactly the time that John Amos Comenius took refuge in what became known as Lissa and the city developed as a Protestant city.

Komenius found refugee in Leszno, in Poland - maybe you have mistaken it with some other Lissa? Szopen 10:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC) That may well have been, but the Moravian Brothers got/(bought?) property at/from/near the Leszczinski (spelling?) estate and built their own seperate town Lissa.


Lissa and Fraustadt near Glogau, Silesia on maps

  • [[6] Fraustadt on 1615 map of Holy Roman Empire in dukedom of Glogau, Silesia - Lissa was founded later
  • [7] Fraustadt and Lissa on 1753 London map
  • [8] Fraustadt and Lissa on 1882 German Empire map



Is wikipedia reliable ?





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