User talk:68.35.182.234

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Hi, re your edits on the PIRA page, I'm sorry but the sources you have cited are incorrect on these points. The Stasi and the KGB did not find the IRA. Neither did the republic ever give m16s to them. There was a scheme in the early 1970s to arm northern nationalists see Arms Trial, but no guns were ever supplied. The Provos did not get guns from the Balkans in the 1990s, this was the Real IRA. Most of them were intercepted by the way. There is no IRA link that any reputable source has given between the IRA nad either Irish American mobs or (especially) the Russian mafia. Finally, it is extremely impportant to understand that the Lybian arms did NOT enable the provos to escalate their campaign. I'm afraiad I'm going to have to revert your changes. Jdorney 12:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Another point, why do you keep deleting the reference tyo the Shankill bomb of 1993? You are also mising up periods in the IRA's campaign, which varied greatly in their intensity. Jdorney 12:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop replacing British English and Hiberno-English spellings in British or Irish articles with American English. That is contrary to Wikipedia policy and will automatically be reverted. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Will (E@) T 06:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Will (E@) T 06:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

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You have been blocked for violating the three revert rule on Provisional Irish Republican Army.
This means that you have reverted an article four or more times in a 24-hour period.
Here are the offending reverts: 1 2 3 4
You are welcome to continue contributing to Wikipedia when 24 hours have elapsed.

Contents

[edit] Get a hobby

And stop wasting people's time with things you know nothing about Jdorney 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JDorney is an example of why people mock Wikipedia.

Get a hobby And stop wasting people's time with things you know nothing about Jdorney 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:68.35.182.234"


This is just plain sad. This guy is so biased and pathetic, that he has to immediately revert ANY facts that he decides are "Not in keeping" with his own, highly biased and anti-Republican point of view. I specifically quoted the sources of changes made in this article, and although they are easily verifiable, this loser, continues to change them without even bothering to check thier validity, which is 100%.

Lost Lives and Jane's intelligence, are just two of the source that quote the facts I put down. CAIN research is notoriously conservative and in often innacurate, which has been pointed out by many authors. I will report Jdorney to Wikipedia, and I will continue to change this article so that it deal in FACTS, not LIES and BIAS. Got that Jdorney. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.182.234 (talk • contribs).

First of all, this is your discussion page Devin, so you can drop the third person as if you are speaking to an audience. YOU my friend are the reason why people mock wikipedia. Does it not strike you as being a little strange that you are the only person whose changes get reverted by everyone. And I notice its not just on Irish republican related pages either. The problem is that you just make stuff up and invent sources for it. How can you do this with a straight face? Do you not get embarressed of yourself after a while? "Their validity is 100%". No its not, as you well know, we checked out your changes and found them to be, as we say in Ireland, a load of bollox. Why do you keep doing it? What are you trying to prove?
"CAIN is notoriously conservative and innaccurate". No its not, as anyone who visits the website can discover. What is more, Lost Lives information is almost exactly the same as CAIN, as you would know if you had actually read the book, which you have not. Remember when you invented a quote from there before? Do Janes even have casualty estimate for the Troubles? If so where are they? If you want to contribute to pages on Irish Republicanism, then I suggest that you read some books instead of pretending that you have. Maybe you might even like to visit us here in Ireland sometime, mr "Irish Catholic" from somehwere in America. Don't suppose you have ever actually been to Ireland? In the meantime stop f*cking up everyone else's work. "Loser", well at least I can read. Grow up.
Jdorney 14:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Look, I am a proud former US Marine, so I am as against "Terrorisim" as anyone. I don not consider the IRA "Terrorists" in the same vein as Al Qaida, HAMAS or Hezbollah, or for that matter the UVF or UDA. The reason for thuis, is that unlike all these other groups, the VAST majority of IRA victims have been Soldiers, Police or Loyalist terrorists. Having said that, I have never once put any bias into either the PIRA or INLA articles. The fact is that "Lost Lives", British Rights Watch, the US State Dept. and Janes Intelligence, ALL, quote the same numbers and figures I have for both the IRA and INLA. The difference between you and I, is that I use multiple sources, where as you use 1 source. CAIN is a estimate of figures, which are disputed by all the other aforementioned sources. You can't keep reverting a page, just because you are unaware of a siurce, or because it doesen't fit in with your personal beliefs. CNN just had a whole article on how schools are not allowing students in High School and Mid School to use Wikipedia for report's, because Wikipedia has so many articles with factual errors. this isn't the fault of Wikipedia, but of people such as yourself, who are either to lazy, to biased or to arrogant to allow for facts to be presented that conflict with your own views.

For example. The Council On Foreign Relations (a highly admired US think tank), says the following under the group "Loyalist Paramilitaries" FAQ.

"Have the loyalist groups targeted civilians?

Yes—and more frequently than the IRA. Between 1968 and 1998, loyalist paramilitaries killed an estimated 864 civilians (most of them Catholic), compared with an estimated 528 civilians (most of them Protestant) killed by the IRA. Experts say loyalist groups have often acted out of religious hatred, while the IRA has more often targeted British security officers—killing more than 1,000 of them—in an effort to further its political goal of ejecting the British from Northern Ireland" . (end)

That is from a highly regarded source, and also Jane's intelligence, British Rights Watch, and "Lost Lives" give the exact same number of IRA innocent victims vs UDA/UVF/LVF victims. I put this in the article and properly sourced it, yet it has been continually reverted by you to claim that the IRA has killed more innocent civillians then "any other group in Northern reland". That is just factually wrong. Even CAIN research shows that the Loyalist groups have killed more civillians then the IRA. The above mentioned sources also give almost identical numbers to the Number of overall IRA victims, and breaks them down into Soldier, SAS, Police, UDR, UDA/UVF/LVF and so on. The number of IRA/Sinn Fein or INLA members killed by Loyalist groups is given at 45 in total from 1969-2001. Of this number 20 were Sinn Fein, 10 were IRA and 15 were INLA. The number of UDA/UVF/LVF and other loyalist terrorists killed by the IRA and INLA is given as 110. 90 are attributed to the IRA from 1969-1998, and 20 are attributed to the INLA from 1976-2001. Those are the numbers, I didn't make them up, if you have issue with them, go complain to the above sources. For these figures to not be included in the PIRA and INLA articles is an insult to the work I did trying to find all of them, from such different sources. I have made a concerted effort to not delete any of your information, I have added to it, but not removed anyhting....all I ask is the same courtesey. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.182.234 (talk • contribs).

What is really amazing to me about is that you can keep up this act even though you know I can just look up the sources. But before I put them here, I want to make one thing clear. This is NOT about my personal beliefs, this is about getting the facts right and quoting sources correctly. It doesn't matter, or it shouldn't, what your beliefs are either - either the facts are there in the sources you quote, in which case they can go into the article, or else they're not, in which case they can't. Its as simple as that
So: for the record and one last time in the hope that you will see reason. Please read this reply in full if you want to a sensible discussion about this problem. Here goes:
The US CFR website has this to say,
On the IRA,
What kind of attacks has the IRA carried out?
Since the late 1960s, the IRA has killed about 1,800 people, including about 650 civilians. The IRA’s primary targets were British troops, police officers, prison guards, and judges—many of them unarmed or off-duty—as well as rival paramilitary militants, drug dealers, and informers in Ulster".[1]
On the loyalists:
Have the loyalist groups targeted civilians?
Yes—and more frequently than the IRA. Between 1968 and 1998, loyalist paramilitaries killed an estimated 864 civilians (most of them Catholic), compared with an estimated 728 civilians (most of them Protestant) killed by the IRA. Experts say loyalist groups have often acted out of religious hatred, while the IRA has more often targeted British security officers—killing more than 1,000 of them—in an effort to further its political goal of ejecting the British from Northern Ireland.[2]
So tell me, why is this different from what you have been posting? We are both reading the same pages.
Here are the, CAIN figures, I'm copying and pasting them all so that you can see how detailed a breakdown this is. If you don't trust me on this you can view the page here [3]
IRA Killings (1,821)
British Forces
British Army (BA) in Northern Ireland *
415
British Army (BA) outside Northern Ireland **
50
Former British Army (xBA) members ***
5
Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) / Royal Irish Regiment (RIR)
190
Former Ulster Defence Regiment (xUDR) / Royal Irish Regiment (xRIR) members
39


Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
272
Former Royal Ulster Constabulary (xRUC) members
14


British Police ****
6
Prison Officers (PO)
20
Former Prison Officers (xPO)
2
Total British Forces Killed
1,013
Note:
  • Includes 1 member of the Royal Navy (RN);
    • Includes 4 members of the Royal Air Force (RAF);
      • Killed in Northern Ireland;
        • Killed in Britain
Alleged Informers
Total
63
Loyalist Paramilitary Personnel
Ulster Defence Association (UDA)
21
Former Ulster Defence Association (xUDA) members
3
Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
11
Total
35
Unintended Targets
Civilians killed during attacks on British Forces, or who were mistaken for British Forces
Protestant civilians
73
Catholic civilians
51
Civilians not from Northern Ireland *
15
Civilians killed who were mistaken for Loyalist paramilitary personnel
Protestant civilians
4
Catholic civilians
1
Civilian killed who was mistaken for a contractor to British Forces
Catholic civilian
1
Civilians killed during attacks on the Northern Ireland Judiciary or who were mistaken for members of the Northern Ireland Judiciary
Protestant civilians
4
Catholic civilians
1
Civilian killed during an attack on a Unionist politician
Protestant civilian
1
Total
151
Note:
  • Includes 7 civilians killed in Britain and 4 killed elsewhere in Europe.
Bomb attacks on commercial property
IRA personnel and civilians killed in premature bomb explosions, and civilians killed during bomb attacks on commercial property in Northern Ireland
Irish Republican Army (IRA) personnel *
103
Non-specific Republicans (REP)
2
Protestant civilians **
75
Catholic civilians **
33
Civilians not from Northern Ireland (nfNI)
2
Total
215
Note:
  • Includes 4 IRA members killed in premature bomb explosions in Britain;
    • Includes 1 Catholic and 5 Protestant civilians killed while attempting to stop bomb attack on their commercial property
Civilians working for British Forces
Civilians employed directly by the British Army (BA)
7
Contractors to British Army (BA) and Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) *
27
Total
34
Note:
  • Includes 12 employees of contractors
Sectarian killings of Protestant civilians *
Total
134
Note:
  • Deliberate killings of Protestant civilians. 91 of these killings occurred during the three years 1974-1976. The IRA used a nom de guerre - Republican Action Force (RepAF) - to claim responsibility for some of these killings during this period.
Civilians in Britain
Total
46
British 'VIPs'
Christopher Ewart-Biggs, British Ambassador to Ireland, and his secretary
2
Richard Sykes, British Ambassador to The Netherlands, and his valet
2
Lord Louis Mountbatten and his entourage
4
Bomb attack on British Conservative Party's Annual Conference
5
Ian Gow, Conservative MP
1
Lord Kaberry, ex-Conservative MP
1
Total
15
Unionist / Loyalist Politicians
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) Members
4
Ulster Clubs (UC) Member
1
Loyalist Association of Workers (LAW) Member
1
Member of Ulster Resistance (UR)
1
Ulster Democratic Party (UDP) Members *
2
Total

9Note:

  • Formerly Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party
Feud with Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA) (all prior to 1978)
Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA) members
4
Members of Republican Clubs (now Workers' Party; WP)
3
Catholic civilians
5
Total
12
Irish Republic's Forces
Garda Síochána
6
Irish Army
1
Total
7
Northern Ireland Judiciary
Judges
3
Magistrates
4
Senior Director of Public Prosecutions Official
1
Total
8
Alleged criminals and drug dealers
Total
23
Others
Protestant civilians during street disturbances
8
Protestant civilians at Irish Republican Army (IRA) roadblocks
2
Catholic civilian at Irish Republican Army (IRA) roadblock
1
'Foreign' Businessmen (all early 1977)
3
Member of Irish People's Liberation Organisation Belfast Brigade (IPLOBB) *
1
Applicant to Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
1
Witness to an Irish Republican Army (IRA) operation
1
Civilians killed during armed robberies
4
Civilian instructor employed by Northern Ireland Prison Service
1
Civilian census collector
1
Fine Gael (FG) Senator **
1
Irish Republican Army (IRA) member in dispute
1
Former Irish Republican Army (xIRA) members in dispute
2
Irish Republican Army (IRA) member shot 'in error'
1
Member of real Irish Republican Army (rIRA)
1
Total
29
Note:
  • A splinter group from the Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), killed during the enforced disbandment of these two groups by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) during the autumn of 1992;
    • Billy Fox, Fine Gael (FG) Senator, was shot during a confrontation with an Irish Republican Army (IRA) unit near to the home of a friend, Clones, County Monaghan, during March 1974.
Reason Not Known
Protestant civilians
2
Catholic civilians
24
Civilian not from Northern Ireland *
1
Total
27
Note:
  • Dutch seaman killed 12 November 1971.
Right, thats two sources, here are the Lost Lives figures:
  • 644 civilians,
  • 456 British military (including British Army, RAF, Royal Navy, and Territorial Army),
  • 273 Royal Ulster Constabulary (including RUC reserve),
  • 182 Ulster Defence Regiment,
  • 163 Republican paramilitary members (including from the IRA),
  • 28 loyalist paramilitary members, 23 Northern Ireland Prison Officers,
  • 7 Gardai or Irish Army, and 5 British Police .
Lost Lives therefore concludes that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1781 deaths to date
This book is not online ,but can find this information on page 1536 of the 2004 edition.


Ok, so that is not one but three sources I am quoting, although I strongly suspect that the CFR website is acutally using CAIN as a source.
Now I want to answer your point about the loyalists etc. First of all, it is not me but other users who keep reverting th particular sentence about the IRA killing more people etc. But the point that they are making is that you are counting all the loyalist groups together, while you are counting just one republican group. The IRA has killed more civilians than any _single_ loyalist group. Now I see the point you're making alright, the IRA saw themselves as fighting a war and tried most of the time to target what they saw as combatants. The loyalists just went out and murdered Catholics at random. I would have a certain amount of sympathy for this point of view - in my personal opinion (and I can say it because this is just a talk page), most ofthe loyalist paramilitaries were and are complete scumbags. They targetted defencless people because of their religion and thier killing of each other over drugs since the ceasefire just underlines the point.
Last point, as you can see from the figures above the PIRA has killed about 20-40 loyalist paramilitaries depending on which source you go for. The INLA killed 7 according to CAIN Where are you getting the figure of 90 from? Just tell me where and I'll look it up. Otherwise I'm going to have to conclude that you did make it up.
Out of the 126 loyalists killed in the conflict according to Lost Lives (page 1531), the majority were actually killed by their own side. I want to expalin why this is so, so that you don't think I'm sticking up for them or something. The loyalists lived and live in highly segregated communitiess surrounded by their supporters -ie Protestant loyalists on place like the Shankill Road. It is impossible for IRA men to hang around for long in these areas for fear they would be identified and killed and on top of that there was the police and army to think about. To kill loyalists, they had to follow them around, find out when they were vulnerable, kill them and then get away fast. This was very difficult and the same factors operating on the other side meant that the loyalists also killed very few republican paramilitaries, less than 30 by all accounts.
One more factor that you don't seem to get is that killing loyalists was never priority for the IRA. In republian ideology, loyalists are fellow Irishmen who are deluded into supporting the British presence in Ireland. See Gerry Adams, "it is vastly prefereable to target the British army" etc. Another point is that killing loyalist paramilitaries was politically irrelevant. The whole point the IRA campaign was to pressure the British government into leaving Ireland. Killing a few local gunmen was completely irrelevant to this. What happened was that loyalists would attack the nationalist community and the IRA's supporters would ask what was being done to protect them from these people and then the IRA would go and "stiff" in their slang, some loyalists. In the republican view though, this was a distractin from the main business, which was attacking the "Crown Forces".
Right, that's it. If you check out those sources and still think that I revert your changes because I am "lazy, biased and arrogant", then clearly we just can't have a reasonable discussion about this. By the way, I'm not a loyalist, or a unionist as you seem to think. Actually this would just not be possible for someone of my background. I have plenty of friends who are republicans including members of Sinn Fein and I tell them just like I'll tell you that I don't believe that violence was necessary or justified over the years from 1969-1997. We argue about it and we hold our own point of veiws, but we can agree to disagree.
Actually, one very final point, "I have made a concerted effort to not delete any of your information, I have added to it, but not removed anyhting....all I ask is the same courtesey." I wish this was true. But in fact, every time you revert the page to the version that you like you delete whole sections that many editors, not just me, have done since. I see you do this on other pages too, amybe by accident, I don't know. If you don't watch out for this you will piss off a lot of people for no reason.
Jdorney 10:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jdorney really needs to grow up here.

First off Jdorney, I keep it up, because you are ingnoring facts which I have continually provided proof for. I have submitted to you, the site, sources, page numbers, and even posted the actual articles in which these facts are stated.

Either you don't bother to read them, or you read them but ignore them because you are so biased in your beliefs that you only include facts that support them, and in some cases you lie altogether. How in god's name you are allowed to continue to be a Wikipedia editor is beyond me.

You basically quote two sources in the PIRA article...CAIN research, and Lost Lives. CAIN research is a "estimated" source of information. Jane's Intelligence, the US State Dept, and the Council On Foreign Relations...all use official statistics for their information, they do not "estimate" casualties as CAIN does.

As for Lost Lives...I have the latest edition of that book, and if you go through it page by page, you come up with the Loyalist casualty figures and British Security Service figures, i have put in the article. Either you are not really reading the book, or your are just lying about the figures, because you know they don't support your beliefs.

You also misquote other books. For instance "The Irish War" staates that 46 Loyalist Paramilitaries were killed by the IRA between 1986-1997...you state in your article that this is the TOTAL number of Loyalists killed by the IRA, that isn't true. The IRA killed a further 38 Loyalists between 1974-1986, but of course you leave that part out. I don't know if you are some Loyalist sympathizer or what, but the way in which you continually ignore the facts about how many UDA and UVF members were killed by the IRA seems odd to me. I have given SEVERAL different sources for this number. Books like "The Irish War" or the latest edition of "The IRA A History" by Tim Pat Coogan. Jane's Intelligence, the US State dept. "Patterns Of Global Terrorisim" and the Center For Strategic and international studies. Why these highly regarded sources aren't enough for you, I am not sure...unless you are trying to push an agenda.

All of the above sources agree on the number and breakdown of the British Security service people killed bu the IRA over the 30 year war. As a former US Marine, with experience in Counter-terrorisim issues, I pride myself on using the above sources, which were the same sources we used in our Force Recon, counter-terrorisim classes. And by the way, the IRA was one of the main groups we studied, along with groups like Hezbollah, Al Qaida and the Tamil tigers. These groups are known as the "big four" to the US Military.

If the above sources were good enough for the Marine Corps...they are good enough for Wikipedia. You need to grow up, and stop deleting facts just because they don't support your own, sad, bias views.

I will file another complaint with Wikipedia about you, and I will continue to edit this article to ensure that it is professional and not the work of some biased little editor, who is more interested in pushing his own views then he is in the facts.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.182.234 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ok then

I tried to be reasonable but I can see you're going to go ahead with your nonsense regardless. You've provided "sources" for the fiction which you have written, I've checked them, found that you made it up and then deleted it. From now on I'll just delete what you write without explanation. Jdorney 19:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not to worry...jdorney will not be with Wikipedia much longer.

I have proved time and again that the corrections I make are 100% accurate and verifiable. I have gone out of my way to provide detailed information on sources and where those sources can be located. In contrast the sources quoted by Jdorney are not only dubious, but are not at all supported by the majority of authors and historians. Jdorney uses two main sources...CAIN and Lost Lives. CAIN is a "estimation" at best, and the US State Dept. Jane's Intelligence, British Human Rights Watch, the Council On Foreign Relations, and various books and articles...all take issue with CAIN's facts and figures. As for Lost Lives, I have the latest edition of that book, and Jdorney completey fabricates the figures. If one reads carefully from 1969-2005, they see the number given as 86, shown as the amount of UDA and UVF members killed by IRA and INLA units. 85% of that number are given credit soley to the IRA. I wonder if jdorney even has the book, since he misquotes it so often. Similar numbers I have provided as to the number and units of British and Irish killed by the IRA is similarly backed up by Lost Lives...if one actually takes the time to read it throughly. I am not going to respond to any more whiney, and childish messages by jdorney. I have informed Wikipedia staff about his biased and unprofessional behavior, and have recieved back that Wikipedia will look into it. It is sad that Wikipedia has to be hampered by a few biased, purposely innacurate Editors, who ignore facts and make up their own...just to support their own one sided views.

PS. Jdorney can leave more messages for me if he wants, but I will not respond to them, and all will be forwarded to Wikipedia staff for review.

I will also continue to monitor the IRA article and this article, to ensure that the correct facts are not continually changed, by a editor, who I doubt will be with Wikipedia much longer:) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.182.234 (talk • contribs).

[edit] RFC

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User:Devin79 is open on your behaviour. Jdorney 12:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is your last warning.
The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 01:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

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