Talk:5.45 x 39 mm M74

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Contents 1 Picture 2 Can someone help me out here? 3 No picture 4 Neutrality?

[edit] Picture

The picture shows the civilian version of that round. The military version has an additional hard metal (tungsten?) insert in place of most of the lead. This penetrator is quite effective against light armor and especially body armor. When this bullet became available on European black markets during the soviet troop widthdrawal in the nineties it created quite some headaches and fear among local law enforcement. Even armored cars in use by most politicians at that time weren't able to reliably stop these rounds at close range.

This article suffers from a nearly complete lack of sources. I can't even find a reference to support the idea the round was inspired by the American experience in Vietnam, as opposed to the American adoption of the round. Bueller? Bueller?--Thatnewguy 12:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Some info here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6708147 My attempts to find a full-text version have miserably failed. --Thatnewguy 12:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone help me out here?

In this page it claims that the balistics study done by Fackler shows "that the AK-74, even at close range, did no more damage than a handgun round". I looked at the PDF file of the report and saw no indication of this, and at this website showing wound illistrations from Facklers findings, it looks to me like the 5.45x39 round creates a distinctively superior wound compared to popular handgun rounds such as the 9x19 Parabellum round and .45 ACP round. Of course I hardly know what I'm talking about, so can anyone help me out here? --Skyler Streng 22:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Terminal ballistics is the subject of quite a bit of debate, because it's impossible to do controlled studies on the subject (well, maybe at someplace a concentration camp or Unit 731, but if that happened, the data was lost or covered up). The big issue of debate is permanent cavity vs. temporary cavity.

A fast projectile will make a big "splash" when it hits, displacing lots of tissue, even if it's a very small diameter projectile. It's this "splash" that creates a temporary cavity. If this temporary cavity does significant damage, then a big temporary cavity can be a good thing, if it's deep enough and encompasses a vital area. If the temporary cavity does not do significant damage, then it's of no concern, and all that matters is the permanant cavity.

Since military rounds are required to not "expand or flatten in the body", according to the Hauge convention, the standard expanding soft point or hollow point bullet used to limit penetration and increase permanant cavity size is not allowed. Modern rifle bullets (starting in the late 1800's early 1900's) use a sharply pointed bullet to provide superior external ballistics, allowing better energy retention at long range with a lightweight, flat shooting, low recoil bullet (compared to, say, the .45-70 Government). This also means the center of mass is well behind the center of pressre, so the bullets are very unstable, and want to fly back first; they are held straight by the spin, but the will tumble when disturbed. Upon impact, the bullets tend to flip, bend, and fragment to various degrees depending upon the velocity upon impact. The 5.45x39mm test you point to shows just tumbling, with a max penetration of about 55 cm--this is 21 inches, or a bit over the FBI's target of 18 inches for handgun bullets. Even sideways, the wound cavity is pretty small, but the curve gives it more total area than a straight shot. So based on permanent cavity alone, the 5.45x39mm is about as effective as a 9mm FMJ (the 9mm penetration beyond 18-20 inches isn't of use, as it's likely through the body at that point). Of course, the 5.45x39mm has far better range and armor penetration.

If you do think the temporary cavity is important, then the rifle rounds start to have a much greater advantage. Actually simulating or measuring this effect is very problematic, however.

I'm a bit sleep deprived right now, and trying to track down a geometry problem in some image processing code, so I'm going to sign off on this for the time being. Ping me in a couple of days, after I get this release out, and I'll be happy to discuss it a bit more with you, hopefully in a more coherent manner. scot 02:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I could understand it being the same or inferior if it was being compared to a Desert Eagle .50 pistol,but not a normal 9mm. Dudtz 5/21/06 12:23 PM EST

It has quite weak stopping power, but still more than 9 mm pistol, and is significantly more lethal. To illustrate, in average each tenth 9mm pistol round means a death, while 5.45 injury/death ratio, according to Israel data, is about 3.5. CP/M

[edit] No picture

The picture is gone now.--Ysangkok 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality?

I suspect the article was largely written by a 5.56 advocate. It states the 5.45x39 gained a reputation as a "mediocre stopper". This should be properly referenced and/or clearly defined. Since "reputation" is based largely on anecdotal accounts, I submit that it is non-encylopedic information. A cursory web search for this round returns more references to its alleged "poison bullet" performance in Afghanistan than to any accounts of subpar performance, so if anything its reputation seems skewed in the other direction.

If anyone has access to Soviet ballistics data that may prove interesting. They have kept it in front line service for 30+ years for some reason, and I don't think national pride is the only one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.170.119 (talk) 00:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC).