Talk:.hack//Sign

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.hack//Sign is a current good article nominee. If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page.

Nomination date: 2007-03-26

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[edit] .hack//SIGN Complete Collection DVD Set

I noticed that there were different numberings for the episodes on this set, which I recently purchased. In the last CD, it has 2 extra episodes, which are 'Intermezzo' and 'Evidence'. 'Intermezzo' is numbered on the DVD as #26 and 'Evidence' as #27. I noticed that 'Evidence' is not even in this episode list (at least its redone one), so I thought I would bring this to the attention of the board. I believe that, if not changed, that this should be at least added to the episodes list, like this: {27. Intermezzo (numbered as 26 in Complete Collection DVD Set).} If that would be plausible, I would be made a very happy man. T.z0n3 21:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The region 1 release screws with the actual release order of the episodes. For the show's television runs in both Japan and the USA, the recap episode, Evidence, was aired with the rest of the episodes as is normally the case for clip shows and recaps. I've changed the main article to reflect this. Tony Myers 05:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thank you for your expertise. I was wondering about that, although I didn't think that would be what was intended to happen. My apologies for any problems I created. T.z0n3 23:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starting point

Well, there's a suitable starting point for expanding this article. I'm a little hesitant to do a more detailed plot (as I'm still not sure I understand the entirety of the series myself), but I'm willing to add pieces later. I've also set up .hack//SIGN as a redirect to this page (as apparently it's somewhat difficult to link to .hack//SIGN instead of "dot hack sign") We should definately reconsider moving it and changing this to a redirect page in the future if possible though.

Pipian 19:29 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I don't see the difficulty linking to .hack//SIGN myself; as you can see these work fine with no link tweaking. Does anyone know why the article is at its present name? - Hephaestos 22:44 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I wrote it here as Emperorbma changed the link from .hack//SIGN to dot hack sign on List of anime. I merely carried the naming convention over for dot hack and the various .hack series listed on that page. I imagine it can be changed fairly easily however. - Pipian 23:19 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm gonna go ahead and switch the .hack pages around to the standard naming practices (.hack//SIGN, etc.) -- Pipian

[edit] Unison

There is a 28th episode now, I think. Called UNISON?

It's an OAV, along with the 27th episode. -- Pipian

Well, should we include both or neither?

I think I'll just make it "26 episodes on TV and 2 OAV episodes"

Unison actually takes place after the second season, the name of which translates to "Legend of Twilight" but is commonly referred to as "Legend of the Twilight Bracelet", which seems to be the closest English translation of the intended title. Unison is basically the characters from the first season meeting the characters from the second season, which features only (a redesigned) Aura, Helba, and Ginkan (Silver Knight, if you saw it in America) makes a cameo, from the first season. Either they're two seasons, or they're two completely seperate Animes set in the dot-hack universe. (As dot-hack is the only Anime I follow, I don't know all the ins and outs of the culture.) - Dark Reality

Uh, no. "Unison" doesn't take place after .hack//Tasogare no Udewa Densetsu (.hack//Legend of the Twilight Bracelet, or .hack//Legend of the Twilight outside of Japan). In "Unison", the characters include the real Kite and BlackRose, not Shuugo and Rena, who later inherited the "skins" of the .hackers. This episode also alludes to the rivalry between Mimiru and BlackRose that was humorously expanded on in "Gift". Aura's look in "Unison", "Gift" and all of .hack//LotTB mirrors how she appears in the games. The Trashman 23:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About the Characters

Um, I don't believe there is enough info on the characters. I don't want to try and add as I don't want to screw up. I know this is rude, but could someone add more? I'd be glad to help (I have a grasp on the plot) with it.

If you're going to warn about spoilers, plus mention Morganna and her role in things(considering that isn't revealed till QUITE late in the series), why is there no mention of either the subplot about Tsukasa's RL gender, or even that he is in fact a she? Nezu Chiza 15:40, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

And yes I have experimented in the sandbox, but I want to be careful.

I had an urge to throw in how I felt about this series, by the end I had very few answers and a ridiculous number of questions, and several hours of my life were gone watching the main character whine or scream about this or that.

If positive aspects to this show could be highlighted, or found in general. It´d be nice to be reminded of them.

This series are the love or hate kind. I loved them because of the slow pace and the sad atmosphere surrounding the main character, which is quite lost. Some hate it because of the lack of action; it's all talk. Or because of the lack of some answers, which I think fits the storyline very well. Sometimes one isn't supposed to know everything. Rvalles 00:10, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

-- Guess what? Story length tripled, character section added, and more stuff coming. Welcome all =).Darkshikari

In the characters section, about Harold - "Because he was disappointed in himself for failing as a father in real life, he created Aura, an AI, to serve as his "daughter" in The World"
I didn't see anything in the series about that. My impression was, Aura was to represent a daughter between himself and Emma Wielant, who died before he had a serious romantic relationship with. It didn't seem to me that he failed as a father, just that he never was a father, biologically speaking. Was there something I missed in the show?
MagusDrumheller 23:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It's probably a misunderstanding, Harold expresses to be very sorry for his failing, failing to raise Aura because of Morgana's rebelion, that is.Requiem the 18^th_(email)

I was wondering about what was wrong with what I added: "(It was also hinted that Tsukasa was a girl in the first episode. By comparing the first and last scenes, Tsukasa and the comatose girl look very similar and have the same position)" I'm not sure if it is a factoid, but it is verifiable as far as I can tell. I mean, it seems about the same as "It is implied from certain scenes in the TV show that Tsukasa had an emotionally unstable father and deceased mother and was ostracized by her peers as a child" in terms of how easy it is to verify. Ariaandkia 11:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title screen

I replaced the old title screen image with one that was easier to see when thumbnailed. The Trashman 23:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Legend of the Twilight

Please do not change this title. This is the official English title used by Tokyopop and Bandai for the releases in the States. I checked on the Amazon.co.uk site to see if they used "Bracelet" in the title, and while I can find it listed three times with "Bracelet" in the title, I can't find any covers that actually have the title using "Bracelet." --nihon 21:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

I put the Weasel Words template up. Listen to this: "The storyline is quite slow and layered—the viewer is quite often fed false information and red herrings, making it quite hard to figure out what is going on until it is finally revealed towards the end of the series. Character development is also extremely critical to the series; there are few flat characters, and each of the important characters goes through great change through the story." There are a lot of opinions in there. Slow an layered? Some might think so, but some may not. Quite hard to figure out what's going on? Some watchers may find it slightly easier. Character devolopment may be critical to the series, but that can be said better to make is sound less biased. Also, not everyone may find the "flat characters" flat. There is a lot of bias like this throughout the article, and someone needs to go through and check it. M2K e 01:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to elicidate (some spoilers cannot be avoided here):

slow: It takes a long time as in number of episodes to discover why Tsubasa cannot log out and who truly is behind the player Tsubasa. Same goes for a lot of others such as Maha. After all the plot has to last for 26+ episodes.
layered: There is the World of the game and there is the real world outside. Not all characters exist in both.
what is going on: Well, was it really obvious who/what was behind Tsubasa?
character devolopment: This is critical for Bear taking responsibility for Tsubasa's real life character in the end, as well as how alliances form throughout the story

While I did not write the article being critisised I feel the autor has a sound and objective basis for the claims. Words might be rephrased to make it clearer but that will necessarily spoil far more of the twists than required for an overall decription of the story. --13:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Another thing; the article doesn't specify which of the characters are flat; in fact the exact words were few characters - not a few characters - which may be as "few" as two. Under those conditions, I would believe it is quite plausible for most if not all viewers to find at least one or two characters which they found insipid or one-dimensional. Also, in general the comments on character development are not negative, although I can understand how you would see it that way. It's quite easy to fix; I intend to do so... Bluemonq 23:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit by User:Zero

On looking at this article, this depicted a very, complete and consise character section, and the descriptions were competent for the inclusion as they are currently. I de-linked it to normal text, to make it clear that the characters didn't have articles and didin't meet the nobility outlined in WP:FICT (probably the best choice I could have made) and with the new Suburu fitted in to fill up the end of the page. It was really a matter of common sense; I found the charcter list folows policy as it is , was easier to read and thought that others having similar problems of referencing might also appreciate it. I also took the libery of making the template link directly to the character section in this article for furthur accessibility.-Zero^Talk 10:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization

Why is this being categorized as Yuri? 65.118.187.102 21:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, at the end we find out that two characters that appear to be romantically involved are both female. This doesn't really seem like a major theme though, so I'll remove the category. -- Ned Scott 23:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Episodes 23 and 24 are all about Tsukasa realizing that he was a in fact a "she", and how this would affect his relationship with Subaru, and in episode 26 Morgana trys to use this in order to make Tsukasa fall in despair. Also Tsukasa managed to wake Aura up when he said there's a person he wanted to meet IRL (Subaru). Thus, it really is a major theme Kazu-kun 03:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Their relationship is an important theme but not the whole girl on girl thing. -- Ned Scott 04:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Even still, I'd only say that it's a major theme of those 2 episodes, not of the entire series.--Anaraug 05:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This series is not even remotely yuri. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't get why people keep insisting the series is Yuri. The problem with Tsukasa and Subaru is that it was mostly a "puppy love" thing. I doubt Tsukasa ever had any remotely sexual thoughts about Subaru, and Subaru genuinely believed Tsukasa was a guy. (That plus her constant flirting with Krim, serious or not, suggests she definitely likes guys.) Tsukasa's admisson of the truth to Subaru wreaked to high heaven of "Can we still be friends?" Yes, Tsukasa was embarassed. Wouldn't anyone here be, especially if they were very close to the person in question? Thankfully, in this case, the friendship lived on, and I think *that* is the theme people are confusing for Yuri.76.18.95.22 18:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

And your poit is...? .hack//ZERO novel states they become a couple after SIGN. It's fine if you don't like that, but I see no point in discussing it further. About the article, the yuri theme is mentioned because a good article is supposed to address all the possible perspectives present in the series (from a neutral poit of view, of course, and the subject is presented that way in this article). This is not the same as to say the series is yuri, of course (which is the reason for it to not being categorized as such) but the elements are there, therefore the theme has to be addressed. Kazu-kun 18:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kaochin

Kaochin is a very minor character in the anime, I feel that she shouldent be in the character section. I know that the confrontation between her and Subaru is certianly deep and meaningful to some people, but the same 'importance' could be said for minor characters like Balu or the guy who keeps asking Mimiru to party- anybody can make a paragraph for a minor character, but that doesnt mean its revelant to add them. Opinions? 70.132.201.55 01:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me Ageofe 01:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If there's place for A-20, Kaochin should have a place here as well. A-20 makes Mimiru to take a decision that change the flow of the series; Kaochin does the same with Subaru. The guy who keeps asking Mimiru to party doesn't affect any main character in any way, thus it's a totally different thing. Kazu-kun 03:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but A-20 appears in about three episodes, Kaochin appears in one (and for about 6 minutes at that). And, it could rightly be said that Kaochin is merely what causes Subaru to realize that her actions have consequences, since the climax of her decision had already been made with the disbanding of the Crimson Knights. She was doing soul-searching so to speak before that, Kaochin merely pushed it along. Looking at the A-20 section as well, I think greater emphasis than should be placed on how these minor characters effected SIGNs major characters if we keep them, to balance out the detail of what they look like. Ageofe 15:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article introduction (number of episodes)

With your changes, the article was like this:

26-episode anime series (with one recap episode and three bonus episodes) produced by studio Bee Train and Bandai Visual, that makes up one of the four original storylines of the .hack franchise. Three additional episodes, Intermezzo, Unison, and .hack//GIFT.

Do you see where is your mistake? 26 ep + 1 recap and 3 bonus + 3 adicional episodes = 33 eps.(¿?) This obviously doesn't make sense (it's a cohesion problem)

Before your changes (and now,) the article was like this:

29-episode anime series, produced by studio Bee Train and Bandai Visual, that makes up one of the four original storylines of the .hack franchise. Twenty-six of these episodes were shown on television, and three additional episodes, Intermezzo, Unison, and .hack//GIFT

26 tv + 3 dvd specials = 29. Do you understand? This is correct, and doesn't need any modification! Kazu-kun 08:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV issues

Please take a look at the second paragraph, and lines such as "character development is strong...a few are flat" for good examples. — Deckill e r 02:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I did some wording. If it's not enough I will see what else I can do when I have more time. If anyone else has any idea, please let us know so we can improve the article. Kazu-kun 04:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Very good start; glad to see someone jump on the issue! — Deckill e r 01:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LOTB non-canon?

In the section on Silver Knight, the article calls LOTB "non-canon", but no other .hack article mentions that. Does anyone have a source saying that LOTB is non-canon? Or did whatever editor mean a specific non-canon episode or omake or something (I haven't watched that one yet)? -- Anaraug 16:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I belive what they are referring to is the anime,the anime LoTB is non cannon while the manga is cannon.

[edit] Re-arrangement

I made several changes on the article in order to improve its quality, using articles listed as "good articles" on WikiProject Anime and manga as basis. I made individual pages for main characters as they appear in several series and there's a lot of info about them (Crim, BT, and Ginkan individual articles are in progress), and cut some text from the main article: mostly speculations and also false information (like saying that the Phases collected emotional data to feed Aura. This comes from the non-canon Liminality easter-eggs and it's just not true, as Analysis states that the Phases didn't exist when Morganna still was doing her job with Aura). Episode list is also in progress. Kazu-kun 14:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I've never really considered separate character articles as something every anime article series should have. It really depends on a case-by-case basis, in line with WP:FICT. -- Ned Scott 00:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point, but here we have main characters that make appearance in many series of the franchise, and are really important to the story in general (ie: Sora, who is really important even in .hack//G.U. eventhough he doesn't even appear in that game series). Info from other series can not be left out, as you well know all the series of .hack are part of a whole, unique story (ie: you can not explain Aura's role in SIGN without telling what she is, but that is explained in Liminality. And without Aura you can not tell anything about Tsukasa, and without Tsukasa you wouldn't have any series to begin with). Thus, this is exactly the case where we need individual articles ( according to WP:FICT) as all the information about them wouldn't fit in the main article. Also individual articles are needed for other series of the franchise where they have major roles, and I don't see any problem linking them from here as that allows us to clean up the main article as well. Kazu-kun 17:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] .hack//SIGN → .hack//Sign

MOS policy states that all capped trademarks are to be written in normal English fashion. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks). The lowercased "hack" is fine because it is emulating computer language.
Additionally, the official site writes it this way. Look at your browser's header while here.--SeizureDog 01:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It has been like this the last three years, why moving it now? Also if you want to do something, you could begin with something more productive, like a reception section, or a theme section... one the article is complete we can move it, but first, do help with the actual article please. Kazu-kun 02:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Why would we need to wait to move it? Policy concerning all capped titles used in anime and other Japanese titles has been discussed multiple times (e.g. at Naruto and Bleach). Consistancy in this standard needs to mantained. How long it's been at the old name is not a valid reason to keep it there. Unless you can cite some policy showing that it should be capped, I'm moving it back.--SeizureDog 03:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

You say move this move that, but it's not only moving the article; only on this page the name apears multiple times, and there's also every .hack related article. If you want to move it so much then do it right; you should be willing to go through every .hack article (including this one itself) replacing the title every time it apears (as stated in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)). But, if you're jut gonna move this page and replace the title in the header, then it's better to do nothing; eventually I will move the article myself, and I will do it right. BTW, I was really serious when I said I coul use your help with the reception section (I'm waiting your answer)Kazu-kun 03:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Who said I wasn't willing? I plan on doing this, but it takes a bit of time (plus my internet keeps disconnecting). I'll have them all fixed up by the end of the week if I don't keep getting reverted like this.--SeizureDog 04:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

As long as you do it right, it's ok by me. Ah, and I don't have your answer about the reception section yet!! Kazu-kun 04:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Btw, the reason I was moving the articles first was because if I "fixed" the links they would end up as redlinks. Anyways, I really know nothing about the .hack series; I only saw two episode of Roots. But here's some reviews to help with the reception: DVD review, Novel review. --SeizureDog 06:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

Madlax, which is a GA, makes use of character pictures in the same way they are used here (pictures on the main article as well as in the list of characters, which in this article case whould be in each characters' own article). If wikipedia editors who rated Madlax as a GA don't have a problem with it, I think you shouldn't either. Evangelion also features character pictures in its list of characters as well as in each characters' own article.

Also the characters listed in this article are not just .hack//Sign charactes, they belong to Project .hack and can be accessed from every .hack related article as they appear in several media of the franchise (This also means there's to much information about each character that can no be left out. An issue that has already been discussed here). Thus, characters' articles and this .hack//Sign article are to be treated separately, and have to stand own their on in accordance with WP:FICT. Kazu-kun 23:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement

I must admit this article has gotten really better over the past few months. It may be a good time to start thinking about nominating it for GA... Well, my actual point is that an friend of mine found this interview on AnimeOnDVD.com and said that it mainly concerns SIGN. Since I'm not primarily interested in this area of Bee Train's repertoire, I thought that it'd be better if someone of the editors here checked it out and saw what useful information could be extracted out of it. :) --Koveras ^☭ 20:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The interview is great. It has some critical comments by Mashimo about the production of the series, so it will be really helpful. Thanks a lot! And yeah, I was already thinking about the GA nomination, but first I need to put together a "reception". Maybe this weekend I will have time to do it.Kazu-kun 03:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Glad I could help. ^^ --Koveras ^☭ 09:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Candidacy

The article is too long. Nominate for peer review. GreenJoe 16:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

We decided to let it remain listed for now and someone will review the article.--DorisHノート 21:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is 46kb long, and there are GA rated articles that long (ie: Madlax). Furthermore, Lain and Excel Saga, which are rated as FA, are around 40, so I don't really see how this is an issue.Kazu-kun 21:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] dot hack...

I now the series is supposed to be pronounced as "dot hack...". The "dot" inside the dot in the DVD covers hints that much. Nevertheless, in order to add this statement to the article we need more than just a hint on the covers; in this case I think we need the word of the creators themself as refence. So, until I find some input by the creators on this subject, it's better no to include it on the article. Kazu-kun 14:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automated Peer-Review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.^[?]
Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.^[?]
Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: behavior (A) (British: behaviour), recognize (A) (British: recognise), realize (A) (British: realise), ization (A) (British: isation), grey (B) (American: gray), programme (B) (American: program ).
Avoid using contractions like (outside of quotations): doesn't, doesn't, wasn't.
Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 04:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Full dates have been linked, spelling consistency and contractions have been fixed. There are not free use .hack//Sign images available, but other GA and FA anime articles use DVD covers on the top right corner, so it shouldn't be any problem. I will see what I can do about the thorough copyediting, though I think the article already meets the GA criteria. Kazu-kun 05:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] opinions

Does this page really need someone's opinion on Tsukasa and Subaru being lesbians? -E

Yes, because the elements are present and need to be explained, and none better than Erica Friedman to do so. She is the president of ALC Publishing, a publishing house dedicated to yuri. In other words she is pretty much an expert on the subject, hence her input is considered critical.

Also, from ALC site: "She (Friedman) has lectured at dozens of conventions and presented films at several film festivals, notably the San Francisco Lesbian and Gay Film Festival. She has participated in an academic lecture series on women and gender roles in anime at MIT and University of Illinois, and written about yuri and shoujoai for several websites and Animerica magazine."

So, as you can see, Friedman is qualified to be cited on the article, at least as qualified as other sources used on the article, like Mike Toole from Anime Jump, or Holly Ellinwood of Anime Active. Kazu-kun 15:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

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