User talk:24.7.89.173

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[edit] Welcome

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[edit] WP:3RR violation

Please read WP:3RR and you could be banned having more than 3 reverts in 24 hours. Please consider it a WARNING. --- ابراهيم 02:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

If you ban me for quoting your holy books then you're pretty fucked up. I quoted the Bukhari Hadith in which Aisha is quoted as saying that IN THE AILMENT FROM WHICH HE DIED, Mohammed used to say that he still felt the pain of that poison. Also you can check out Ibn Sa'd:

Umm Bishr [the mother of the Muslim man who also died eating poison], came to the prophet during his illness and said, "O apostle of Allah! I never saw fever like it in any one." The prophet said to her, "Our trial is double and so our reward [in heaven], is double. What do the people say about it [his illness]?" She said, "They say it is pleurisy." Thereupon the apostle said, "Allah will not like to make His apostle suffer from it (pleurisy) because it indicates the possession of Satan, BUT (my disease is the result of) THE MORSEL THAT I HAD TAKEN ALONG WITH YOUR SON. It has cut my jugular vein."

These quotes are certainly enough evidence to justify including the facts about Mohammed's death on the page.

[edit] Muhammad article

He was indeed Poisoned by Jews according and it is written in history books. But how you know that it was cause of death? What kind of poison kill person after 3 years ? Few names? --- ابراهيم 02:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

From Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so 'AbdurRahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you know." 'Umar then asked Ibn 'Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse:-- "When comes the help of Allah and the conquest of Mecca . . ." (110.1)

Ibn 'Abbas replied, "That indicated the death of Allah's Apostle which Allah informed him of." 'Umar said, "I do not understand of it except what you understand."

Narrated 'Aisha: THE PROPHET IN HIS AILMENT IN WHICH HE DIED, USED TO SAY, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." ... Don't burn me in effigy just because I teach you about your own Prophet...

If something is written in Hadith then who I am to deny it. But tell me that second hadith about Aisha is in which book and when it is said (after 3 years?) ? The first Bukhari Hadith is no significant as it prove nothing about cause of death. It look like prediction of death. --- ابراهيم 02:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon, you seem to assume that I'm a Muslim. I'm a Buddhist. My horse in this race is the academic POV. No academic accepts the poisoning story. It is a later fabrication, as many hadith are. I think Berg's The Development of Exegesis in Early Islam might be a good introduction to the academic POV, though I'm not sure it's the best. I'm not up on the very latest in the literature. I think that might be Scott Lucas. Zora 02:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Well hundreds of millions of Sunnis believe that. Anyway if you disregard the Hadith as you seem intent to do then there's not much to say about Muhammad's life.

[edit] 3RR

While they might not be right in their approach, they are right about the violation: You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Muhammed. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. -Patstuart 02:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Changes can always be discussed on the talk page too. -Patstuart 02:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of Earth

According to 7:54, "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days". and according to 41:9-12, "Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days". If Universe's life span is 13.2 billion and earths life is 4.6 billion, which is rougly one third of the universe's age, this is exactly what the Qur'an is saying. And according to theory of relativity, maybe Qur'an is talking about someother timeframe which is very close to the speed of light, in which two billion years is rougly equal to one day. Cheers! TruthSpreaderTalk 09:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
See this also . --- ابراهيم 00:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Very scientific. Why says cheers when you can't drink? Haha. Anyway yes it does say that, but read:

Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly say that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But then there is also the following passage:


2 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days

    And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

+

    He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
    and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things

4 to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days

    in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance). 

    Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, 
    and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: 
    "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." 
    They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

+ 2 So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,

    and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. 
    And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, 
    and (provided it) with guard. 
    Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge. 
                                           -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)

= 8 altogether these are EIGHT Days.


So yeah it contradicts itself.

For your answer See this also . --- ابراهيم 00:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days. I do acknowledge that if the Qur'an had not mentioned at other places that the creation of the heavens and the earth involved six (6) days, the total process could have been taken to add upto eight (8) days. But keeping in mind that the Qur'an has mentioned elsewhere that the total process involved six (6) days, there is nothing wrong, linguistically, to say that the total period involved in designing and creating the earth (because the mountains etc. are a part of that earth) took four (4) days. While that of the skies involved two (2) days. Thus the total number of days in the designing and creation of the earth and the skies involved six (6) days.
Suppose, one were to say:"The structure of the whole house was raised in one month and the house was made fit for living in six months."
It is clear that 'raising the structure' of the house precedes its being 'made fit for living' and that these can be termed as two 'different' and, in a way, 'consecutive' events, yet it does not necessarily mean that the total time taken in making the house fit for living was seven months. I do acknowledge that this statement can indeed be construed to mean that the total time taken in making the house fit for living was seven months. Nevertheless, if the writer of this statement has also stated at another place that the completion of the house took six months, then it would only be appropriate to interpret the cited statement to imply that the stated time taken in making the house fit for living includes the one month taken to raise its structure.
If someone says:"According to the above verses the Earth is created first, the mountains and sustenance are given next and it is only at last that the firmaments are created."
This statement is only based on an incorrect interpretation of the Arabic word 'Thumma', used in this verse. Moreover, the implication of the word "yawm" in the Arabic language was nor restricted to the concept of the "sunrise to sunset" day.TruthSpreaderTalk 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The translation I copied is very clear. Making the earth: 2 days. Putting stuff on the earth: 4 days. Making the heavens: 2 days. Total: 8 days. Perhaps the correct translation "thumma" should be simultaneously, perhaps not. In any case if I were you I would rest easy on this point, so let's leave it.

While we're on the topic of science, the Qur'an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon. I don't think special relativity will give you an out here.

Also Sura 51:49 claims that everything is created in pairs. But this is not true! There are quite a number of things that have no counterpart and species where only one gender exists.

The figure of Jesus in the Qur'an is also quite confusing. Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], and worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them. Hmm...

Also you admitted that if it were not for the earlier sura, we would say that the universe was created in 8 days. This brings up the Muslim concept of abrogation. "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]; your wine example is a perfect one. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices! If, according to the Qur'an, the words of Allah are perfect, why did they change throughout Mohammad's life?

[edit] WP is NOT a soapbox

Please don't post messages on pages that are completely irrelevant to the topic of the page. It can be seen as spam and Wikipedia regards adding spam to articles or talk pages as a form of vandalism. Thank you. ITAQALLAH 00:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about?

[edit] Please also remain civil.

It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! ITAQALLAH 00:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] drinking

Quran used a progressive way to abolish drinking, so that it would be easier for people to accept it. TruthSpreaderTalk 02:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

God's decision was perfect when it was only prohibited before prayer and was perfect when it was completely abolished. Your argument has itself a fallacy in it. For the second thing, kindly read Aisha's_age_at_marriage#Evidence_that_Aisha_was_older_than_nine, this is what I believe, and why the prophet married so many times, you should read John Esposito's "Islam:The straight path", page.16. And please, wikispace is WP:NOT a soapbox for faulty (or even otherwise) polemic. Thank you! TruthSpreaderTalk 09:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Well! Everyone has a right to have his/her own opinion. The contradiction you talked in Qur'an, is actually because of taking things out of context. This is a bad scholarship to take things out of context and take them generally when original text talks about specific case.
"Heavens" in Quran means stars. The seven heavens, which Qur'an talks about are, to my understanding, parallel universes (as Qur'an says one over the other) But only our Universe has stars in it and these stars are supporting other Universes. According to String theory, only gravitational particles leave one dimension and goes to the other. Remember, if Quran says that there are seven heavens, then it should be taken literally, not some pseudo-explanation. Verse 71:16 is saying that moon shines and sun burns, which is 100% scietifically correct.
To have a better understanding of warfares by prophet Muhammad, kindly read Itmaam-i-hujjat. TruthSpreaderTalk 22:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I will read it; I'm sure you guys have a good reason why Mohammad killed children.
Your discourse on string theory made no sense, I'm afraid.
You should note that I have proven that the Qur'an contradicts itself, proving that it is not from God; it is ridiculuous that Jesus is both in heaven and in hell. Also there are any species with only one gender, contradicting the Qur'an again. Here is some more proof for you:
In sura 16:69 we are told that honey, which gives healing, comes out of the bee's abdomen. Honey does not come from the bee's abdomen.
Sura 25:45-46 maintains that it is the sun which moves to create shadows. However, it is the rotation of the earth which causes shadows to move, while the sun remains quite still.
If you want more contradictions I can easily provide them.
I read Itmaam-i-hujjat. Are you threatening to execute me if I don't accept your faith, as it says? I don't understand why you wanted me to read that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.89.173 (talk • contribs).
The article:Itmaam-i-hujjat just talks about people who are direct addresses of the prophet, and you definitely are not the direct addressee of the Qur'an as you were not born in prophet Muhammad's time. In verse, 16:69 is mentioning about the process of production of honey. Verse 25:45 is talking about relative motion, which is enough to tell people about the glory of God. For the last comment, I can just suggest, you better improve your general knowledge. Cheers and peace! TruthSpreaderTalk 23:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Honey does not come from within bees, as Muhammad said. Look it up. Also your comment "everyone has a right to his own opinion" is ironic because Muhammad killed people who disagreed with him. He killed children as well. That's not OK.
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