Talk:10/40 Window

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Contents 1 Some previous comments and talk 2 Purpose Controversy 3 Map 4 Nations 'controversy' 5 This needs secondary sources. 6 Map 7 Merge with Luis Bush ? or not. 8 NPOV concerns

[edit] Some previous comments and talk

I'm not an expert on Wikipedia guidelines, but I've got to say that calling a third of the world's population "Unevangelized Peoples" seems questionable. It sounds just as bad as calling them "Infidels" or something. Perhaps 'Non-Christians' or even just "demographics for the 10/40 window, by religion:"?

Pasta Salad 06:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

While I agree that it can be viewed as derogatory, your suggestions don't imply the same thing. Evangelism quite literally means "spreading the good news", so people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized. That is why the numbers are much lower than the population in the region as a whole. Viewed in this context I don't think it's an offensive term, but if there are less inflammatory alternatives with the same meaning I'm open to it changing.

Senor fjord 23:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized.

That's correct.

Complicating it even further, the traditional demographic sources are census-based. This leads to cultural measurements (e.g. "if you're European or American then of course you're Christian"). As a result, it's quite possible to be a follower of Jesus without leaving Islam. Apparently, there are even "Messianic Mosques"!

Mr Pete 17:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

A better way to call this would be "Non-white" world, and realize that vast majority of European populations aren't particuarly that religious at this point. Just admit it, it's about racism.

Actually, it would more accurately be called: "non-European", (as the Hispanics aren't exactly white). However, there is a significant portion of (black) Africa, that isn't included. So I guess "non-European" wouldn't that good of a term either.

User: unknown

Whoever made the above comment is seriously uninformed. Christianity ceased to be predominantly even semi-European many decades ago.

I'm reverting several recent edits, as they are non-factual:

• Removed the comment about South Korea. The "10/40 Window" is exactly a geographic definition, proven by the exceptions both inside and outside. South Korea is inside, and distinctly Christian. Indonesia is outside, and distinctly non-Christian and unreached. Some have complained "that's the wrong Window!"... it is what it is. A simple geographic rectangle, and an analysis of the nations whose land mass is at least 50% inside that area.

• Restored the sentence about predominant religions in the 10/40 Window. That's one of the primary attributes and valuable understandings brought by the concept; ridiculous to remove the statement.

• Removed the (ungrammatic) phrase ", by Christian organizations." -- the 10/40 Window has been recognized in Time Magazine among many other sources.

• 5 million Jews => 6 million (just recalculated based on database at http://www.joshuaproject.net). Yes, whoever put the original numbers here gave the world population of Jews, an obvious mistake.

• 1 billion Hindus => 550 million. The total population of India is not Hindu. And, even the official census misconstrues the Hindu population by self-determination measures. I'll mention this, although eventually someone will discover this statement and be upset (because it is controversial for obvious reasons): the scheduled castes (aka outcastes), approximately 300 million, are only "Hindu" for others' political/economic purposes. They hardly consider themselves real Hindus -- after all, they can't even enter a Hindu temple. Bottom line: 550 million is a pretty reasonable estimate. Yes, needs an update, but it is better than a billion.

Mr Pete 18:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverting more edits:

North and South Korea are both in the Window. This is apparently hard for people to believe. Please check out the Wikipedia map for North Korea. Note that South Korea is completely below 40 degrees and inside the Window. Note that most of North Korea is below 40 degrees and inside the Window.

The population statistics are not about evangelized/unevangelized. They are a count of non-Christians.

Please, if you are motivated to re-edit these issues, first talk about it on this page! All recent edits have introduced errors. Check the original sources cited in the article.

Mr Pete 11:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Purpose Controversy

Recent edits have introduced a needlessly controversial perspective not found in the 10/40 research.

The user at 75.37.25.3 introduced the idea that the "Christian" part of the analysis was based on percentages of Christians with a goal of proselytizing. Yet the cited study used overall investment figures, not numbers of Christians: less than 7% of Christian resources were going to that part of the world. For example, World Vision, a large children-at-risk development organization with UN ties, made some significant shifts in their investment strategy as a result of the 10/40 research (citation needed if possible.)

Mr Pete 03:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I designed and uploaded a map that shows the actual countries that this "window" was designed to encompass, I felt it would better illustrate than a dry list. Danthemankhan 04:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nations 'controversy'

Various people seem to be intent on removing South Korea from the Window. South Korea is only one of many "anomalies" that help prove the point that the Window is simply a helpful generalization. It would be nice if this could be appreciated!

I've created a new paragraph that describes some of the interesting anomalies, including South Korea. I hope this information will help make the article acceptable!

--Mr Pete 09:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Amazing how this happens over and over. Both Koreas, North and South are 10/40 Window nations. That's because most of North Korea's land mass is inside the 10/40 Window, and all of South Korea is inside. Folks, it's a geographic definition. Yes, South Korea is majority Christian and North Korea is not. That's ok.

Mr Pete 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the recent addition of Italy to the list, and added a citation referencing the portion of the original article that provides the appropriate data. Italy is not part of the 10/40 Window. Likewise, I've corrected several other factual errors about 10/40 nations that were added in recent edits:

• Russia is usually not considered a "least evangelized" nation. It has a large Orthodox Church, for example, and the Christian message is widely available in print, radio and other forms. (The key question used is whether people have access to the Christian message, i.e. could they learn it if they wanted to?)
• The edited 'controversy' section implies that the GIS analysis is invalid. The analysis did not simply show a lack of Christian influence in the 10/40 Window. In spite of the strong economies of nations such as Japan and South Korea, the region demonstrates a far higher proportion of deep poverty and painful life issues than any other region of the world.

Mr Pete 03:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

More reverts. The newly-edited summary suggested that India is part of Central Asia (it is not) and needlessly complicated the description of what is or is not in the Window area. Simplified to point to Wikipedia articles covering each of the sub-regions of the Asian continent.

Mr Pete 05:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This needs secondary sources.

Tagged it {{Primarysources}} as it even says it's been verified against primary sources. We really need some secondary sources here else it slips into the world of neologisms and WP:OR. Ttiotsw 15:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

A number of secondary sources added. {{Primarysources}} tag removed. Mr Pete 18:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Does all of West Africa count here? I only ask because some of it is technically Western Hemisphere.Young Skywalker 06:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it matters what anyone thinks but Luis Bush who invented this neologism. That is a point though - is it only Luis Bush who uses this ?. Should this article be deleted/merged back into Luis Bush as so far we have no secondary sources. Ttiotsw 07:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A wide variety of independent secondary source references added, from many POV's. Merge tag removed; this is clearly no longer one person's term. Mr Pete 18:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Luis Bush ? or not.

This has been tagged as having no secondary sources for quite a while. It's simply a copy (more or less) of what Luis Bush has got on this topic. Who else uses this term ?. I feel it should be merged into the Luis Bush article unless we have cites from reliable sources as to who else uses this. Ttiotsw 08:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A simple Google search would prove that it is not just Bush using this term. Time Magazine had a major story on the phenomenon in 2003, and it is common coin among missiologists, pastors, and people interested in missions around the world. Bush may have coined the term, but it is a far larger concept than just Bush at this moment. Robert Johnson 22:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a copy date for that Time article ?. The issue is there are no cites as to who uses the term (it is for the editors who want the text to stay who must provide the cites) and the notability of the others (i.e. missiologists, pastors, and people interested in missions) using this term is unclear. Without notable people using the term it still remains simply a concept of Luis Bush which others borrow. Ttiotsw 21:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I hope including the Time cite will resolve this question for this non-Christian audience. This term is used by hundreds of millions of people worldwide, and is a major concept for much of the evangelical church around the world. "Notable people" is of course a cultural-context question. You could ask Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Paul Cedar, and any of thousands of other Christian leaders worldwide about this term, and they would all know it. Mr Pete 14:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV concerns

I have done some NPOV editing on this article, but even still the article seems to imply that there is a causal relation between poverty and lack of Christianity. This problem could be remedied by including material indicating whether the inventor of the 10/40 Window actually posits such a causal relationship, and/or summarizing critical views about the utility of the 10/40 Window. —Psychonaut 02:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to posit a causal relationship between poverty and lack of Christian influence. In this case there's a long-term significant correlation between the two. Mr Pete 14:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Added many citations from various POV's towards Christian mission efforts. I can find no reference that is critical of the utility of the term. It is simply a description of a research result that anyone with access to GIS tools can replicate today. It is actually a good example of what can be discovered using GIS tools: the data had been available for years, but was never "seen" because GIS was not available. NPOV controversy tag removed, anticipating that the plethora of proper sources takes care of this question. Mr Pete 18:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)