Talk:`Ala' ad-Din Kay-Qubad
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[edit] Naming
The Turkish name (or an English one derived from it if one exists) should be the one used as the article's title, as it is likely also the one in common use in academia (and therefore considered the English spelling). The Arabic and/or Farsi transliteration and script should also be included, despite Zaparojdik's screaming to the contrary.
Interestingly, the Turkish spelling according to the Turkish article on the man is "Alaeddin" not "Alaaddin". If someone could pick up an English-language scholarly book on the Sultanate of Rûm to get uniform set of names of the Sultans, that would be great. Here's a book I found during a search, but which is not at my university library: Cahen, Claude, The Formation of Turkey. The Seljukid Sultanate of Rum: Eleventh to Fourteenth Century, Harlow, 2001.
Also, the article title should probably just be the last or regnal name, not the whole name as it now stands. Other Sultans have just the regnal name like Kay Khusrau I and Kilij Arslan II. I think this is generally the convention for royalty. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 19:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- The current proposal by Mardavich and myself, using the Arabic transliteration, was based on discussion on User talk:Tajik and User talk:E104421 and on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Arabic). Basically, what we found out was that there was no single English name form dominant in the relevant literature - most literature uses some form of Arabic-style scholarly transliteration, but with differences in detail. In that case, according to the MoS, a consistent Wikipedia house-style version of a standard Arabic transliteration should be used, which is what we now have. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I second Fut.Perf. This is a silly edit war, the Arabic-style scholarly transliteration is the most relevant as the Seljuqs used Perso-Arabic script. --Mardavich 20:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- For friends of historical spellings, there's this great numismatical website, mehmeteti.150m.com/seljuqsofrum/index.htm, with lots of beautiful original coins bearing those Seljuk names. Perhaps someone could contact the guy and ask if he would license us one or two for illustration? It's time we actually start expanding the content of that article, don't you guys think? :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- If there really isn't a form that's common (I'm not entirely sure that's correct), then I agree something has to just be chosen. However, I reiterate that I do not think the `Ala' ad-Din part should be included, as per the above examples of other Sultans and per the prevailing usage (do a search for "Sultanate of Rum" and look at the results). └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 20:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Okay, I have no problem about that. By the way, we ought to start thinking about disambiguation pages too. There's the mythical Shahname character Kay-Qubad, who hasn't got an article yet, there's three or four Seljuq sultans of the same name, and then there's also some modern Bangladeshi guy who's taken the Kaykobad version. - With all the required alternative spellings, that's going to be a big web of dablinks and redirects. And all for this tiny bit of content... Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Just to put my two cents in, most encyclopaedias, and here on Wiki, allow for Turkish renderings of the names of Turks in history - please check Mehmed II, Mehmed is the Turkish rendering of Muhammad, and he has always been known as Mehmed. Such renderings are widely accepted, in Wikipedia and many other academic works. "Purism" of name doesn't have any importance. So is the current name the concensus?? You gotta be joking. Are the people who are moving this article going to change the title of the Mehmed II article to Muhammad II? No, I don't think so. Besides, we should also run a google check to see the most common name in English. Baristarim 01:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- They might have used the Persian-Arabic script, however: Most people didn't read and write back then, and Seljuq people spoke Turkic languages, therefore what is important is not the script, but the language. It is as simple as that. Transliteration has nothing to do with this: Nobody back then knew how to read and write, so I wonder how someone can claim that "Seljuqs used this or that script".. Baristarim 01:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I must admit I didn't very closely check the section on "Ottoman Turkish" in the Arabic MoS guideline. If you want, check it out and propose a different spelling on its basis if it's more "Turkish". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- But Seljuqs, the dynasty, didn't use "Ottoman Turkish" or "Turkish", they used Persian, the script and the language. As a matter of fact, the Seljuqs are renowned as the great propagators and patrons of Persian culture, art, literature, and language. Their official title was "The Great Seljuqs of Iran". Mehmed was an Ottoman Turk who used Ottoman Turkish in his court, he was called Mehmed in his own time, the naming of his article can not be a precedent for the naming of an article on a Seljuq emperor who used Persian in his court. They lived in different eras, under different cultures, and used different languages in their courts. --Mardavich 07:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I must admit I didn't very closely check the section on "Ottoman Turkish" in the Arabic MoS guideline. If you want, check it out and propose a different spelling on its basis if it's more "Turkish". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- They might have used the Persian-Arabic script, however: Most people didn't read and write back then, and Seljuq people spoke Turkic languages, therefore what is important is not the script, but the language. It is as simple as that. Transliteration has nothing to do with this: Nobody back then knew how to read and write, so I wonder how someone can claim that "Seljuqs used this or that script".. Baristarim 01:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Image
There is a statue of Kay-Qubad at the intersection of Keykubat Caddesi and Atatürk Caddesi in Alanya which I have seen before. Here's one shot. A large free-use version would be nice.--Patrickneil 04:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
