Talk:Zoroaster

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Contents 1 Rewrite? 2 Greek 3 NPOV? 4 Very much "NPOV?" 5 Zoroaster is the first mouthiest of written history 6 Meaning of Zarathushtra 7 Behistun? 8 "founder of the oldest monotheistic religion." 9 essay cut from article 10 Zarathushtra's Name? 11 move 12 Iranian/Persian 13 Naming and dating convention 13.1 Most commonly-used form 14 Why is the article so sure he existed? 15 1000 BC? 16 Removed History and later development 17 Date of Zoroaster 18 Arda Wiraf or Arda Viraf? 19 The Date 20 Why does he look whiter than Jesus? 21 Contemporary Views, etc 22 place of birth 23 Nietzsche 24 Kurdish? 25 History 26 Zarathushtras Nationality ? 27 Bahai Discussion 28 Name section 29 Cultural depictions of Zoroaster 30 Dating of Zoroaster 31 Zoroaster, Zarathustra what's the difference? 32 Avestan 33 Name 34 naming

[edit] Rewrite?

Although this article in its current form contains much valuable information, it seems to me to be wordy and biased. I believe the size limit is 32K, and this one weighs in at around 38K. A few recent edits contained pertinent information, but the article was reverted to an earlier version, because the person who did the reversion felt that the edits had not improved the article. Additional information, clarification and removal of bias by inclusion of multiple points of view are desireable in general, and certainly by Wikipedia standards, so I would like to take a shot at rewriting this article, being careful to maintain all of the information that the original author included, minus the bias and some of the length, and including some of the information that was lost in the reversion, minus the bias and argumentative tone. This topic is of great interest to me, and I've spent considerable time researching when Zarathustra lived and the evolution of Zoroastrianism after his death.

--dave c

Is IS wordy and biased, as well as outdated. I'm having a hand at cleaning it up but it's a major piece of work to deal with. I would suggest accessing current scolarship on the subject including Mary Boyce and FEZANA. Zosodada 16:18, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oh, please, oh please do. I barely managed to get through it, and I find the topic interesting enough research on my time off. Between the incomprehensible attempts at foreign languages and characters (see Greek) and the lack of conciseness, I learned less than expected from this usually top-notch resource.

--Terri

[edit] Greek

The word "ZajpodtTTpi/s" is presumably a scanning error from attempting to scan Greek letters as English text. Could anyone fix this with the correct spelling (in the Greek alphabet) of the Greek version of the name?

I can guess at something like

Ζοροαστερ (???)

but it's a pure guess based on phonetics: I don't know Greek at all.

Some googling turned up a few instances of Ζωροαστρη in what looks like the genitive. --Brion 11:32 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

In that case, the best guess so far is Ζωροαστρ ?

I'll put it in the article, as it is at least better than what's there at the moment....

Aha! Ζωροάστρης[1]. --Brion 13:04 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

Yes! I can now also see how that might OCR as ZajpodtTTpi/s. The Anome

There are other OCR mangles in here: I guess they will have to wait for someone to go back to a paper or scanned copy of the 1911 EB and type them in. -- The Anome 17:48 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

"Zoroastres" does not seem really "corrupt Greek", rather an attempt to translate the "ushtra" (star) into Greek. Is that so? Jorge Stolfi 01:57, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

"He [Zoroaster] purified it [Persian religion] I from the grossly sensual elements of daëva worship, and uplifted the idea of religion to a higher and purer sphere. The motley body of Aryan folk-belief, when subjected to the unifying thought of a speculative brain, was transformed to a selfcontained theory of the universe and a logical dualistic principle."

any talk of a religion 'purifying' a prior culture does kinda seem a little odd.

Yes, it's odd and biased. "Reforming", however, might be acceptable. I'll attempt to make note of specific reforms if I'm not completely overwhelmed. Zosodada 16:21, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Very much "NPOV?"

The whole writing style of this entry is florid and overheated, to the point that I've given up on reading it all the way through. Someone needs to replace this entry with one that's about a quarter the length and more matter-of-fact, so that it doesn't sound like a sermon by a true believer.

[edit] Zoroaster is the first mouthiest of written history

Some historians believe than in Zoroaster’s original religion, God (Ahuramezd) is the only creator and the Devil (Ahreman) is also a creation of God, who later turned against God. As proof of this some similarities between Islam (and other Abrahamic religions) and Zoroasterism can be mentioned. Among these are 101 names for God (close to 99 in Islam), 4 angles (same as Islam), 5 times prayer (same as Islam) and the description of Heaven and Hell. In fact, the word Jaheem (hell in Farsi) is used as is in the Holy Quran and some orientalists believe Islam is a mixture of Zoroasterism and Judaism, which is of course untrue and the similarities are due to all three (Islam, Judaism and Zoroasterism) coming from the same divine source.

What is a "mouthiest"?

I think he meant to say "monotheist". The claim is flawed though.--Khodadad 09:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Flawed how? Please explain.

Because information about his exact beliefs is limited and because devotion to a single god does not necessarily mean belief in the existence of only one god, expecially since his system appears to have dualist elements. Paul B 15:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Zarathushtra

Unlike what is suggested, the Ushtra in Zarathushtra does not mean "star". Iranian is not a Semitic language and Ishtar does not play a role in the name of Zarathushtra.

Zara- is the Old Iranian form of Modern Persian "zal" meaning 'old, aged'. Ushtra- is the genetive form of Ushtr- (syllabic r), meaning 'camel'!

Zarathushtra means "the one who owns old camels".

Even though you are right about "star" not existing in Zarathustra's name, you are making a mistake in thinking that "star" comes from semitic "ishtra-". In fact mid-Persian for "star" is "starak" and in modern persian it is "stara" (corrupted in Tehrani vernacular as "setareh").

sure. but zarat is not from "golden". You are thinking of zaray (Sanskrit hari) "golden/yellow/green". dab (ᛏ) 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Behistun?

the first line of the inscription translates to

I (am) Darius, the great king, the king of kings, the king in Persia, the king of countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arsames, the Achaemenide.

Ahuramazda is mentioned in the inscription, of course, but not Zoroaster. dab (ᛏ) 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. I stand corrected. I knew it was Ahuramazda that was mentioned in the inscription, I don't know why I thought it was Zarathustra. Anyhow, since there is no evidence that anyone other than Zarathustra introduced the concept of Ahuramazda/Zarathurstrianism, I think we can safely say that "by extention" Zarathustrianism (and thus, Zarathustra) is implied whenever we encounter "Ahuramazada".

No, we cannot! Actually, in the Gathas, he is never "Ahura Mazdah", rather consistantly "Mazda Ahura". Then, the word means "Lord Wisdom" and there are many reasons to believe that is was an already existing name for one of the Indo-Iranian gods. So, there is not any reason to conclude that mentioning Ahura Mazdah should be extended to a mention of Zarathushtra as well.--Khodadad 09:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

True, but by referring to his enemies as Drauga (Druj) he is operating under a peculiarly Zarathushtrian dualism, and the language of his other inscriptions echo Gathic ideas (esp. Naqsh-i Rustam). And don't forget that Hystaspes (Ὑστάσπης) is the Greek for Vishtaspa as well. If the name Vishtaspa has some pre-Zoroastrian significance I am unaware of it, though it is certainly possible. The Behistun inscription must be compared with Darius' others as well[2]. I don't fully understand the name reversal issue. That is Ahura Mazda's translation yes, and Zarathushtra was both preceded and followed by Spitama as well. So what? But it is true, that we should never assume anything, and I don't claim to be the final word on any of this, but would enjoy any further discussions. Because it is true, not only historical speculation and the Asura/Ahura cognate, but the Zoroastrian scriptures themselves refer to pre-Zoroastrian Mazdayasnian worship, and it would appear to be a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc argument if not looking at other peripheral/corroborating evidence such as Herodotus (though I take him with salt), etc. But on the other hand, we must remember that Zarathushtra was, like Muhammad (pbuh) never - as a rule - the center of worship, and there would have been no reason for Darius to invoke Zarathushtra's name. And would he have needed to? When I hear "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," I don't need Jesus tagged at the end or Charlton Heston saying it to get that the language is Biblical. E.g.:

"Then truly on the (world of) Lie shall come the destruction of delight; but they who get themselves good name shall be partakers in the promised reward in the fair abode of Good Thought, of Mazda, and of Right. If, O ye mortals, ye mark those commandments which Mazda hath ordained -- of happiness and pain, the long punishment for the follower of the Druj, and blessings for the followers of the Right -- then hereafter shall it be well." -- Zarathushtra; Yasna 30:10-11

"The man who cooperates, him according to his cooperative action, him thus do I reward. Who does harm, him according to the damage thus I punish. It is not my desire that a man should do harm; nor indeed is that my desire, if he should do harm, he should not be punished." -- Darius; DNb, 8c

Just some food for thought, and a comparison I found at random, there better ones to be made I'm sure ;-) Khirad^talk 14:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "founder of the oldest monotheistic religion."

The article says he's probably the founder of the oldest monotheistic religion, but in "Zoroastrianism", his religion is defined as polytheistic. They're kinda opposite, so...? --Menchi 02:46, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

it's henotheistic, like all early monotheistic religians (including Genesis). But it's not the earliest one anyway. see this [3] diff, where Zosodada changed the essentially correct statement to what is basically fantasy. I would be glad if someone fixed it. dab (ᛏ) 09:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The primitive doctrine (Paoiryōţkaeṣa) was polytheistic, and thus the later lapses back into Mithra and Anahita worship and the icon worship, before the Sassanid orthodoxy. If anything Zarathushtra was a co-founder with Abraham. And if we are to scrutinize monotheism, Christianity itself falls short. As to Zoroastrianism being polytheistic, the concept of daevas and followers of the Druj epitomizes the emphatic stress against polytheism, though it would be accurate to characterize the Amesha Spentas as henotheism, and perhaps the daeva worshipers can be interpreted the same way as the First Commandment. And let's not even talk about the Zurvanite heresy...! Khirad 09:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] essay cut from article

I cut the following essay from the article. Have you ever looked at the Gathas? They are very opaque. Every statement you want to make about Zoroaster's views will need some serious backing up and qualification or attribution. dab (ᛏ) 08:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

As soon as the two separate spirits (cf. Bundahish, I, 4) encounter one another, their creative activity and at the same time their permanent conflict begin. The history of this conflict is the history of the world. A great cleft runs right through the world: all creation divides itself into that which is Ahura's and that which is Ahrirnan's. Not that the two spirits carry on the struggle in person; they leave it to be fought out by their respective creations and creatures which they sent into the field. The field of battle is the present world.

In the centre of battle is man: his soul is the object of the war. Man is a creation of Ormazd. who therefore has the right to call him to account. But Ormazd created him free in his determinations and in his actions, wherefore he is accessible to the influences of the evil powers. This freedom of the will is clearly expressed in Yasna, 31, II: "Since thou, O Mazda, didst at the first create our being and our consciences in accordance with thy mind, and didst create our understanding and our life together with the body, and works and words in which man according to his own will can frame his confession, the liar and the truth-speaker alike lay hold of the word, the knowing and the ignorant each after his own heart and understanding. Armaiti searches, following thy spirit, where errors are found." Man takes part in this conflict by all his life and activity in the world. By a true confession of faith, by every good deed, word and thought, by continually keeping pure his body and his soul, he impairs the power of Satan and strengthens the might of goodness, and establishes a claim for reward upon Ormazd; by a false confession, by every evil deed, word and thought and defilement, he increases the evil and renders service to Satan.

The life of man falls into two parts — its earthly portion and that which is lived after death is past. The lot assigned to him after death is the result and consequence of his life upon earth. No religion has so clearly grasped the ideas of guilt and of merit. On the works of men here below a strict reckoning will be held in heaven (according to later representations, by Rashnu, the genius of justice, and Mithra). All the thoughts, words and deeds of each are entered in the book of life as separate items — all the evil works, etc., as debts. Wicked actions cannot be undone, but in the heavenly account can be counterbalanced by a surplus of good works. It is only in this sense that an evil deed can be atoned for by a good deed. Of a real remission of sins the old doctrine of Zoroaster knows nothing, whilst the later Zoroastrian Church admits repentance, expiation and remission. After death the soul arrives at the chinvat peretu, or accountant's bridge, over which lies the way to heaven. Here the statement of his life account is made out. If he has a balance of good works in his favour, he passes forthwith into paradise (Garo dernana) and the blessed life. If his evil works outweigh his good, he falls finally under the power of Satan, and the pains of hell are his portion for ever. Should the evil and the good be equally balanced, the soul passes into an intermediary stage of existence (the Ham~stakans of the Pahiavi books) and its final lot is not decided until the last judgment. This court of reckoning, the judicium particulare, is called 6/ia. The course of inexorable law cannot be turned aside by any sacrifice or offering, nor yet even by the free grace of God.

But man has been smitten with blindness and ignorance: he knows neither the eternal law nor the things which await him after death. He allows himself too easily to be ensnared by the craft of the evil powers who seek to ruin his future existence. He worships and serves false gods, being unable to distinguish between truth and lies. Therefore it is that Ormazd in his grace determined to open the eyes of mankind by sending a prophet to lead them by the right way, the way of salvation. According to later legend (Vd., 2, 1), Ormazd at first wished to entrust this task to Yima (Jemshid), the ideal of an Iranian king. But Yima, the secular man, felt himself unfitted for it and declined it. He contented himself therefore with establishing in his paradise (vara) a heavenly kingdom in miniature, to serve at the same time as a pattern for the heavenly kingdom that was to come. Zoroaster at last, as being a spiritual man, was found fit for the mission. He experienced within himself the inward call to seek the amelioration of mankind and their deliverance from ruin, and regarded this inner impulse, intensified as it was by long, contemplative solitude and by visions, as being the call addressed to him by God Himself. Like Muhammad after him he often speaks of his conversations with God and the archangels. He calls himself most frequently manthran ("prophet") ratu ("spiritual authority"), and scoshyant ("the coming helper" — that is to say, when men come to be judged according to their deeds).

The full contents of his dogmatic and ethical teaching we cannot gather from the Gathas. He speaks for the most part only in general references of the divine commands and of good and evil works. Among the former those most inculcated are renunciation of Satan, adoration of Ormazd, purity of soul and body, and care of the cow. We learn little otherwise regarding the practices connected with his doctrines. A ceremonial worship is hardly mentioned. He speaks more in the character of prophet than in that of lawgiver. The contents of the Gathas are essentially eschatological. Revelations concerning the last things and the future lot, whether bliss or woe, of human souls, promises for true believers, threatenings for misbelievers, his firm confidence as to the future triumph of the good — such are the themes continually dwelt on with endless variations.

It was not without special reason — so Zoroaster believed — that the calling of a prophet should have taken place precisely when it did. It was, he held, the final appeal of Ormazd to mankind at large. Like John the Baptist and the Apostles of Jesus, Zoroaster also believed that the fullness of time was near, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Throurh the whole of the Gathas runs the pious hope that the end of the present world is not far distant. He himself hopes, with his followers, to live to see the decisive turn of things, the dawn of the new and better aeon. Ormazd will summon together all his powers for a final decisive struggle and break the power of evil for ever; by his help the faithful will achieve the victory over their detested enemies, the daëva worshippers, and render them impotent. Thereupon Ormazd will hold a judicium universale, in the form of a general ordeal, a great test of all mankind by fire and molten metal, and will judge strictly according to justice, punish the wicked, and assign to the good the hoped-for reward. Satan will be cast, along with all those who have been delivered over to him to suffer the pains of hell, into the abyss, where he will henceforward lie powerless. Forthwith begins the one undivided kingdom of God in heaven and on earth. This is called, sometimes the good kingdom, sometimes simply the kingdom. Here the sun will for ever shine, and all the pious and faithful will live a happy life, which no evil power can disturb, in the eternal fellowship of Ormazd and his angels. Every believer will receive as his guerdon the inexhaustible cow and the gracious gifts of the Vohu maljã. The prophet and his princely patrons will be accorded special honour.

---

[edit] Zarathushtra's Name?

AFAIK the name Zarathushtra (Avestan Iranian) and Zartosht (Modern Persian) mean "Having Many Yellow Camels". It is a Bahuvrihi, but I don't know where the bit about "Old" came in. I don't want to change it without confirmation, but that's all I see in my resources on those languages... the Indic cognate words translate as "yellow" and "camel", too. em zilch

no, you are confusing two words, check an Avestan dictionary and see above, Talk:Zoroaster#Meaning_of_Zarathushtra. Also, if we're going to use Avestan transliteration on the name, it will be Zaraθuštra, not Zarathuštra. I opt for Zarathushtra (Avestan language Zaraθuštra). dab (ᛏ) 17:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

okay, that's why I asked... I didn't write Zaraθuštra because I hadn't yet located the coding for the θ character ("theta"), and then once I had, Wikipedia was down. em zilch

Basically, the word Zara- in Avestan (cognates with Persian Zal) means Old. --Khodadad 09:08, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The correct name for this article should Zathushtra. Why is it Zoroaster? Can anyone explain....? I have read all relevant Talk. freestylefrappe 00:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

See the sections below this one. [4][5] Paul B 01:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not a lingiut but in Kurdish, his name means: "golden Camels", it probably is a measure of his wealth.

[edit] move

ah, man! you moved the page with copy-paste! You are not supposed to do this. Also, you are kindly requested to discuss page moves beforehand, anyway. I'm moving back. dab (ᛏ) 17:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

apologies for that. i appear to have missed a discussion as well about the meaning of his name, so for now i'll shut up. User:Emilyzilch

sorry if I seemed to jump at you. A move to Zarathushtra is arguable, but I do think Zoroaster is more in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions. dab (ᛏ) 16:06, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian/Persian

I'm aware that Iranian and Persian are complex terms with a lot of history and multiple meanings (see Talk:Persia), and I've certainly been known to use them incorrectly. That said, use of these terms in this article seems very inconsistent, and I think that someone who's really familiar with proper use of the two, both as descriptors of ethnicity/nationality and of language, might want to check over any appearances of either word and possibly standardize. --Shotput 20:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming and dating convention

IMHO, I think the idea presented by others to convert instances of Zoroaster to Zarathushtra, as well as a move to that article name, is a wise one. And I see that Jguk has been here before, converting any instances of BCE to BC. I suggest that BCE/CE makes much more sense given the subject matter. Thoughts? SouthernComfort 11:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

There does not seem to be any consistency about this here, but afik the general rule is that the most common English-language form of the name is to be used. Pace Nietzsche, that's still "Zoroaster". Obviously no-one would seriously propose changing Jesus to "Yehoshua" (or whatever). However, there clearly are more ambiguous cases. I see that Confucius appears under the traditional latinate form of his name, not as "Kung-fu-tzu" or any other transliteration. There is also the fact that the name of the religion is firmly established in English as "Zoroastrianism", not as "Zarathushrianism". The Britannica also uses "Zoroaster". I much prefer the name Zarathushtra, but the balance of argument seems to favour "Zoroaster". Paul B 13:12, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

addendum: I also see that other ancient Iranian luminaries retain the traditional Western forms of their names. Cyrus does not appear as Khorvash, nor Xerxes as Khshayārsha. I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but I still think we should keep things as they are. However, I agree about BCE/CE.Paul B 19:59, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

We are writing an English language WP for those who can read English wherever they are in the world. That alone means we should refer to Zoroaster throughout and keep the article page on Zoroaster - that is how he is known in English. We should also keep BC/AD as that is by far the most common date notation throughout the English-speaking world. Kind regards, jguk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Why does this mean we should refer to Zoroaster? The name is always shown as Zarathusthra. Zoroaster is GREEK. That's where it comes from! The correct nomenclature is most definitely Zarathusthra. freestylefrappe 01:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

We all know it's Greek. That's not the point. "Jesus" is Greek too. It's not "correct nomenclature" for an Aramaic speaker. "Confucius" is Latin [6]. It's not "correct nomenclature" for a Chinese guy. But those are the versions we use in article titles in accordance with Wikipedia naming policy, and also with the practice of other encyclopedias. If the name were "always shown" as Zarathushtra, that's what we'd use, but it isn't. Paul B 01:40, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

But that still doesnt justify the name. It's almost always seen as Zarathushtra. freestylefrappe 22:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

No it isn't. Zoroaster is still very widely used - certainly more often than the most "correct" version, Zarathushtra. It's true that if you do a google-count you do get more hits for Zarsthustra (next is Zoroaster and lowest is for Zarathushtra). But that's mainly because most hits are pages that refer to Nietzsche's book or Strauss's music. They aren't actually about the prophet. Paul B 00:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Most commonly-used form

There is a misconception advanced by some advocates that the use of a certain form (like Zoroaster or Zarathustra) indicates some sort of Wiki-endorsement. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is merely Wikipedia policy to use the most commonly-used form of names, units of measurement, etc. Not because these are the "right" ones, but simply because that's what mose readers expect.

If there is a controversy on what the "correct" spelling or correct "dating system" is, then Wikipedia will describe this controversy, but it won't endorse any side.

I myself was unaware that Zarathustra and Zoroaster were two variants of ONE person's name. Now I know! Thanks to Wikipedia for this. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 04:04, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why is the article so sure he existed?

There seems to be a huge range of DOB and of places of birth and a distinct lack of contempory accounts.Geni 12:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

like with Shakespeare and Homer, if he didn't exist, there must have been another prophet of the same name :) dab (ᛏ) 8 July 2005 09:53 (UTC)

why? do we then accept that achilles existed?Geni 9 July 2005 19:06 (UTC)

Mainly because someone wrote the texts at some point. The linguistic evidence places the oldest texts (the gaths) as they are currently to be at least from 1200-1400 BC, if they are copied from something else, then the original is even older. All we are saying is that this Mr X who wrote the text is referred to as "Zoroaster". Someone has to have written it, since it exists. Likewise someone wrote the texts of Homer, there is no particular reason not to call this person Homer, as everyone else has done for millenia. Likewise Shakespeare. It is not claiming there is anything special about the person, other than that he was "the guy wot wrote the text", which is essentially the only reliable info about the person. It isn't like we are saying "there is Mr Y" and then going "he wrote text Z", we are saying "we will call whoever wrote text Z as Mr Y". "Y" being "Zoroaster" simply because that is what everyone else has said his name is for millenia. The text could just as easily have been written by someone called Bob, but this Bob is then the person who wrote the text, which everyone usually refers to by the name "Zoroaster", so "Zoroaster wrote the text". He must exist, as the text does. It didn't write itself (probably). ~~~~ 23:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Someone accepts that Achilles existed? Where? elvenscout742 21:37, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, there is a distinct lack of contemporary accounts for anyone and anything prior to 1000BC (except in Egypt). ~~~~ 22:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

And Mesopotamia. And Anatolia. And the Agaean. But apart from that, yes. The Iranians were at the fringe of entering history, at that time. The 1000 BC date is fine, but most evidenve points towards a later date, maybe 9th-8th century? We'll never know. dab (ᛏ) 16:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

somebody wrote the prophecies of Merlin (ok Myrddin). It is posible that someone by that name existed but hioghly doubtful. There are a number of texts in existed that while they have been credited to a single person are probably the product of a number of individuals.Geni 16:46, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

the point is that the prophecies of Merlin are in medieval Welsh, but they pretend to date to the 5th century. Now if there is a text saying "I, Merlin, say such and such", and we know nothing else about the author, we may be permitted to speak of a "Merlin" who wrote these texts, it was after all his nom de plume. But since Merlin at the time this text was written was already a legendary character, we prefer to say that the author attributed the texts to Merlin. Now the Gathas are in archaic Iranian, and all we know about Zarathustra post-dates these texts. So we may as well concede that the texts were written by "Zarathustra", without making a claim about whether the name was that of his clan, or the one given him by his mother, or if he just made it up as he composed the Gathas. Fact is that the author of these influential texts was afterwards known as Zarathustra. dab (ᛏ) 17:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

There are several serious Iranian scholars who doubt that Zarathustra can be usefully treated as an historical personage, and see it more productive to view him as the mythologized embodiment of an entire ritual-poetic tradition. Among contemporary Iranianists, I can think of Harvard's P. Oktor Skjaervo off-hand, and I know I could throw in a couple of dead Germans if I went to the library. At present, this position is still a minority view in the field, but it is worth including under a "scholarly viewpoints" or suchlike section toward the end. Bacchiad 13:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

of course, most of what's in the article is obviously legendary. It could use a good cleanup, too. the sections "Zoroaster in History", "Placing Zoroaster in a Historical Context" and "Date of Zoroaster" just ramble on about the same topic, and should be merged. dab (ᛏ) 10:17, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

To answer the original question on why the article is sure that he existed: because this is an encyclopaedia! Yes, I am aware of the arguments against the historical existence of a person named Zarathushtra (forwarded mainly by Jean Kellens and P.O. Skjaervo), but those are in minority and even they admit that theirs is a theory that has more relevance for matters of textual analysis of the Gathas than anything else. For the most parts, and for the sake of an encyclopaedia, we can go with the more accepted view, and more easily understandable one, that Zarathushtra did exist. Quite honestly, prior to the invention of birth-certificates, how can you prove existence of anyone at all? How do we know Julius Caesar existed? Mainly because people wrote about him and we have his "Gaulic Wars". Same here, we have 17 poems (the Gathas) which represent a coherent idea and are written in a consistent language and peotic style. We can only assume that someone composed them, and he can be called anything you like, but "Zarathushtra" is certainly a possibility.--Khodadad 08:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1000 BC?

I will admit to not being familiar with the specialist literature here, but in general texts I have never heard such an early date given for Zoroaster. I've usually heard 7th or 6th century BC. The earlier date seems odd, given that, so far as I am aware, we don't know anything about the Iranian peoples at such an early date. john k 03:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Let me add - Britannica dates him to the 7th/6th centuries BC, giving him dates of 628-551 BC, based on Zoroastrian traditions that put him "258 years before Alexander." Columbia Encyclopedia gives exactly the same dates. Obviously, this is just a traditional date, but if it is still being given by both Britannica and Encarta, I'm not sure what business we have going with this much earlier date. And I'm genuinely confused about this. What on earth justifies this massive backdating to a period when we know practically nothing at all of the people of whom Zoroaster was a part? My experience with very old texts of uncertain origin is that as time goes by scholars tend to make them more recent - the Torah is now thought to have originated in its final form only after the Babylonian Exile; the Iliad is not thought to have been fully assembled until the 6th century BC; and so forth. Why is this one (possibly non-existent) individual being dated back to such an early point? john k 03:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Is the issue based entirely on linguistic evidence? To what extent is this generally accepted? If it really is accepted, why are other encyclopedias still giving the later date? john k 03:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

My World Book Encyclopedia has 1400-1000. I was surprised, I haven't looked up that teeny, tiny, little article forever. Read the Date of Zoroaster thing below I guess. If you are sceptical of the date, than prove the dating of the Vedas wrong. To be honest I'd like to know how those are dated, but to sum it up: Gathic, or Younger Avestan is apart from a few consonantal differences h/s, z/j etc. is practically identical to the Vedas. Otherwise the article below is real good and much more clear and concise than an essay written by me would be! Khirad^talk 17:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

JP Mallory goes into the dating of Zoroaster in his 1989 book In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology, and Myth. He also comes to the conclusion, based on the linguistic evidence, that 1000 BC is a more appropriate date than the traditional date. He also identifies the early West Iranians (the society Zoroaster lived in) with the Grey Ware pottery assemblages that appear on the Iranian Plateau around 1400 BC; this is a fairly common identification.--Rob117 06:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed History and later development

I removed all of it because, apart from being dated and pov, it's only marginally topical, and the entry is quite long. The good parts of it could perhaps be incorporated into Zoroastrianism. Davidweman 21:22, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Zoroaster

The date of Zoroaster is certainly before 1000 BCE. The 6th/7th century date that is often mentioned is based on some quite older material, mainly on "traditional" datings such as those accepted by the late W.B. Henning.

Current scholarship, however, now almost universally opts for the earlier date based in linguistics and comparative evidence. Encyclopaedias might still be reflecting the older scholarship probably either due to the fact that they are much slower to change and also because the Date of Zoroaster is not exactly the hottest topic around. For more info and bibliography see my article: http://www.iranologie.com/history/zarathushtra.html

Just a week ago I picked up a book written in 1967 that said matter-of-factly that Zarathushtra was walking around and converting Jews during the captivity with disciples and everything. I think "its not the hottest topic" hits it on the head. The very thing that makes it interesting to me, makes it frustrating to discuss with others, who often by no fault of their own, but because of the dearth of reliable information out there, think that he divined by staring into the fire, and other such junk. On the other side is the, erm, to coin a term, "Darwin factor," if people catch my meaning. In any case, you're preachin' to the choir! Its always refreshing and uplifting to read someone who knows what they're talking about. Khirad^talk16:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arda Wiraf or Arda Viraf?

There's mention of "Arda Wiraf" in the text. A google search pops that string up many times, but always, I think, in connection with the article. Maybe the person who posted it was German, but couldn't they have meant "Arda Viraf"?

Well whenever there is a w/v issue its usually due to the fact that its neither, but in between in Iranian and Indian languages. I looked at the manuscript picture I know of at the Farvardyn gallery and was able to make out اردا ويراف though I'm no expert. In any case, its a matter of transliteration. I have seen it a few ways though. If only I had the Pahlavi ms.! Mary Boyce has Ardā Virāz Nāmag. This sounds more Pahlavi to me, simply because 'f' is a foreign sound. In any case, I always go with 'v' over 'w', as in English it represents the sound a little better, and is usually the more standard usage. Khirad^talk 15:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've changed it to the more familiar version and created a page on the book of Arda Viraf. Paul B 21:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Date

Zardošt is one of the oldest monoheist religions in the world and the date is certainly much much older then 1000 BC. In the Zardošt calander we live in the year 8000, and besides I once readed that Plato the greek philosipher wrote then Zardošt goes back to 6000-7000 BC

In response to the above comment : Check out "Plato, Perhistorian" by Mary Settegast. She suggests a 6500 b.c. date for Zarathustra. She writes, "For example, Pliny (Nat Hist. xxx3-4) stated that both Aristotle and Eudoxus believed that Zarathustra lived 6,000 years before the death of Plato. Plutarch (De Isid. 369) claimed that Zarathustra would have been 'older than Plato by 6,000' years." She also digs around in the Avesta, comparing the Gathas to the Vendida, showing how the differng tone in both suggest the teachings of two different Zarathustras at two seperate times (i.e. 7th millenium b.c. and 600 b.c.) Her contention is that the name Zarathustra is a rank-signifying name given to priestly initiates. Anyhow, just a thought. Her book is worth checking out in relation to this abviously "hot" topic. - swbrannon

[edit] Why does he look whiter than Jesus?

--220.238.248.148 10:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

How white does Jesus look? The image used is a modern one popular amongst Parsees. Obviously there are no authentic images of the man. Paul B 12:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

It is interesting to note, that while Zoroastrianism gave so much to Christianity, the Parsis were infact influenced by icons of Jesus, that is why he is painted in that style - plus the fact that halo's and pastoral symbolism were already familiar perhaps? Here is the oldest surviving depiction of him. However the present versions like this use imagery and symbolism, which is seen more in other Zoroastrian 'icons' as well, like the one with Shah Lohrasp. Besides, Zarathushtra, may have very well been lighter skinned than the real Jesus. And remember that this picture and other examples such as these vary slightly - just like paintings of Jesus. I have never been sure about the copyright issues concerning these, as many are de facto icons used in Fire Temples and homes alike, yet when detailed information concerning such status is hard to come by (like everything Zian is) I err on the side of caution. Khirad^talk 14:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary Views, etc

I find this very interesting and hope it to be a work in progress. I think Zarathushtra's, though albeit minor, significance in the Bahá'í Faith should be mentioned as well. Shah Pehlavi and Khatami have made positive remarks too. Oh yeah, I just found out while driving through Arizona that there's a peak in the Grand Canyon called Zoroaster Temple (in addition to all the other religiously named "temples"). I dunno, fun fact?! Khirad^talk 15:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] place of birth

I've deleted the following paragraph;

Zoroaster was born in the northwestern part of Iran, in the city of Urmehr, modern day Orumiyeh in West Azarbaijan province. There is also a tradition that his father came from Ragai, moden day Ray, near Tehran.

Over the past months we've had assertions that he was born in Balkh in Afghanistan, and in other locations. The fact is that we don't know, so surely such assertions should not be presented in this confident way. as far as I know, the east of Iran is the most likely location, but even that is speculative. Paul B 00:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've seen his place of birth put at many places. The Raghā/Ray one though is W.B. Henning's theory cited by R.C. Zaehner. Thus it has perhaps a little more respectability, but still, no one can say for sure where he came from. Although there is, more or less, agreement that Vishtāspa's kingdom in which he found asylum is roughly the area of Chorasmia. That does not necessarily mean he was born there though. Khirad^talk 19:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche

For convenience's sake, wouldn't it be a good idea to link to the book's title in a more relevant place, or at least in the disambiguations, given Nietzsche's book undeniable importance? Just my two cents. Alkaine 18:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

On that note why the Italian band's disambiguation but not Nietzsche's? I would complain about the absence of others whom I've come across using one form or another of the Prophet's name in albums, etc., but they probably don't have an article to link to anyway. The Googoosh site doesn't even have her discography! Khirad^talk 19:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kurdish?

Is the Kurdish necessary? I put in the Gujarati. Although the source here puts it as જરતેાશ્ત. From the little info I've been able to find on Parsi Gujarati before, their vowels do tend to fall in odd places, but I standardized it to be safe (for the record the Hindi is ज़रतुश्त). I've also seen it transliterated from Avestan into Gujarati like here, thus: ઝરથુશ્ત્ર, but this seems to be more liturgical, if I may use that word in this context. In any case, the Kurdish, like if I were to add the Hindi, seems to be superfluous. And are we ever going to transliterate the Persian and Gujarati, or even Greek? E.g. Zartošt, Zartośt (or Jardośt technically), and Zōroástrēs respectively. Khirad^talk 20:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think Kurdish is not necessary. We shoud add the Avestan script. Bidabadi 02:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

someone seems to have added that Zoroaster was Kurdish (sigh). We can list the Gujarati as far as I am concerned, but make sure that you provide a proper transliteration along with the Unicoded Gujarati abugida. dab (ᛏ) 08:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

There are no reasons to believe that Achaemenids were Zoroastrians, as the article suggests. It is certain that the founder (Cyrus) was not. Why are we including this?--Khodadad 08:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

How do you know Cyrus was not Zoroastrian? I don't think we have clear evidence. The article used to say that Zism probably played a role in the Achaemenid era. Someone much have recently changed it. Paul B 09:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Significant sculptures etc have been found dating from the achaemenid period of ahura mazda etc thus there was at least some form of zoroastrianism prevalent in the court - thus it's relevant Danlibbo 01:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Mention of Ahura Mazda is not proof of specifically Zoroastrian belief, since there is no reason to believe that Zoroaster invented Ahura Mazda. Paul B 08:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

good point - but it's still a fairly sizable 'probably' - while we can never prove what cyrus himself believed, it's likely that there was a significant following in iran - i was just thinking this is more of a reply to khodadad's point than yours Danlibbo 10:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zarathushtras Nationality ?

Why does someone believe that Zarathushtra was an Iranian Person ?

Yes it is correct that he lived in Persia, but as all of you know was Persia a great empire at that time and he lived in the Western part of Persia, and thats where the kurds lived.

Zarathushtras religion is still practicized by some kurds, and Zarathushtra is a Male kurdish name, while Avesta is a female name.

see Iranian peoples. "Persian" and "Kurdish" are both subsets of "Iranian". This is not about his passport, but about his membership in a socio-linguistic community. Furthermore, if Zoroaster had been Kurdish, the Gathas would be written in Old Kurdish, wouldn't they? Avestan is not even in the same major subdivision of Iranian as Kurdish. If anything, Zoroaster was a Khwarezmian or a Bactrian, or if you insist, a Yaghnobi. But it would be anachronistic to call him that. Please exert a little bit of common sense before spilling your mind, even if this is only Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 16:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

YOU GUYS ARE HILARIOUS. About the only thing that is fact about Zarathushtra is that the birth place of his religion was in Bactria. On a side note, I love the use of the term 'Indo-Iranian' mostly because of the ignorance its use implies. WHAT IS BETWEEN INDIA AND IRAN? - AFGHANISTAN. Who is Indo-Iranian? - Afghans. Zarathushtra obviously wasn't Afghan however, nor was he Irani, Kurd, Dutch or any thing else you people claim, for these places did not exist. So the fact that you people are hashing over his ethnicity is ludicrous. HE WAS FROM PERSIA. A broad land that includes, but not limited to, Afghanistan, Iran (yes the Kurdish regions as well), Tajikistan, etc, so stop trying to leech off of his name, and try to use his legacy to boost your peoples ego.

it's one thing to be ignorant. It's another thing to condescendingly display your ignorance like you do. Indo-Iranian is the term used by convention. If there was no Afghanistan in 1000 BC, there was no Persia either. The article is fine, don't bother. dab (ᛏ) 12:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

that makes no sense - afghanistan was not a wholly separate region in 1000bce, persia was more distinct as encompassing large portions of afghanistan Danlibbo 01:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bahai Discussion

I love Bahais and the Bahai religion, but this article is not the place to discuss what a DIFFERENT religion thinks of the founder of this religion. It is no more appropriate than having Bahai theology on the Christianity Page and so on. It just does not belong. --64.178.145.150 05:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not the article on Zoroastrianism, but on Zoroaster himself. Check the articles on Jesus and Muhammad, in which you will see the same multi-faith perspective. Paul B 07:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name section

What's with the "Name" section as currently written? It defends two opposing arguments at the same time O.o I'd fix it, but this is really a topic I have no idea about. (Looking at past talks I can understand the discussion, but really, the current text needs to be written consistently at least, even if it says "it might be this or it may be that".)--LaloMartins 02:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, someone added nonsense, which was even contradicted by their own reference. Paul B 04:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Zoroaster

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dating of Zoroaster

"Persian mythological dates are very early indeed, reaching into what is today known as the Neolithic." Can anyone explain what the author was trying to say here, in relation to the rest of the facts written? It doesn't seem to bear any relevance to the rest of the article, as it stands.

I think, if that sentence is rephrased and put in the context, it makes sense. It should actually begin that section. It is always interesting to relate mythological and traditional dating in contrast to scientific dating. I will try to rephrase, if I find time.Shabdiz 07:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoroaster, Zarathustra what's the difference?

Suggest picking a name to use - the article swaps between each of the above options, seemingly on a whim - it should be cleaned up and have the one used as the title used consistently and the alternative provided as another spelling - so what should be the primary name? Danlibbo 01:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avestan

Maybe change the name so the correct one appears both in the beginning and somewhere in the middle. -Slash- 05:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

It is very complex to tell the source of this, but read on:

Zoroaster's name comes from Avestian, the only representative language of the old Avestian is the Kirmancki(Zaza-Susa-Elam) and the Gorani (Kermanshah) Kurdish-Dialects.

Let me explain it: Zoroaster comes from: "Zere Xo Tij Ra" (His Heart Is Made Of Light) - this is also a common description for dervishes (sufism) in the Kirmancki and Gorani Kurdish regions.

Zere ... Heart Xo ... His Tij ... Light Ra ... Of

First of all there should be told, that the Kirmancki and Gorani People aren't that common "Kurdish" everybody thinks of, but they are so old in tradition and believe, that there next neighbours the Kurds assimilated them by a higher population and by wars. (see Sorani-language and origins)

Heart Of Light (Zer Tij Ra) -> Zertijra

[edit] naming

I removed this as, at the very least it needs to be completely rewritten and have a citation.
"It is very complex to tell the source of this, but read on:
Zoroaster's name comes from Avestian, the only representative language of the old Avestian is the Kirmancki(Zaza-Susa-Elam) and the Gorani (Kermanshah) Kurdish-Dialects.
Let me explain it: Zoroaster comes from: "Zere Xo Tij Ra" (His Heart Is Made Of Light) - this is also a common description for dervishes (sufism) in the Kirmancki and Gorani Kurdish regions.'
Zere ... Heart
Xo ... His
Tij ... Light
Ra ... Of
First of all there should be told, that the Kirmancki and Gorani People aren't that common "Kurdish" everybody thinks of, but they are so old in tradition and believe, that there next neighbours the Kurds assimilated them by a higher population and by wars. (see Sorani-language and origins)" --Danlibbo 21:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)