Talk:Zohar
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[edit] Citing the Zohar
There seems no standardized way to cite the Zohar in references. For example, I have no idea what "(Zohar iii, 288b)" means. Where exactly is this text?! The Zohar is a big book. I have several editions of the Zohar from various publishers - in Aramaic, Hebrew, as well as English - online and hardcopy - and none of them are indexed in the way above. Each publication seems to organize the Zohar text according to its own method. Some simply give each section its own name without using any numbering system at all. Obviously citing the Zohar with page numbers is useless because different editions have different page numbers, and online editions often have no page numbers at all. Probably Ashlag's Sulam (in Hebrew) with section names and section numbers should be the standardized method for citing the Zohar. It would be helpful if the Wiki article included a table with the equivalent referencing method of each publication. User:Haldrik 6:42, 1 Aug 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zohar and Choseness
I have a beef. The entry on choseness states "This view of Jews as superior to non-Jews later resurfaced in a part of the Zohar, the classic book of Kabbalah (Jewish esoteric mysticism), and this view has been repeated in a few later Hasidic texts such as the Tanya. " But the entry on Zohar says nothing about these contraversial sections.
- The text does not say that the Zohar comments on the Tanya (The Tanya was written centuries later than the Zohar.) Rather, it says that a certain idea in the Zohar (an early work) is repeated in the Tanya (a later work). Or do I misunderstand your question? RK 16:48, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Yes you misunderstand, my beef is with the inconsistency between the Choseness and Zohar entries. The Choseness entry says that the view of Jews as superior to non-jews surfaced in a part of the Zohar. Why does the entry on Zohar say nothing specific of this?
- Ok, now I understand your question. The entry on the Zohar is still very incomplete, like many Wikipedia entries on books of philosophy and theology. This is all a work in progress. However, I am compiling information on this very topic as we speak, and should have something very soon. RK 21:05, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Binyamin Writes:
Chosenness comes from the Torah itself. The words are "am segula" In Hebrew "Segol" means purple which is a royal colour and it is also the name for the vowel with three dots. The concept of the trinity in creation is the people of Israel, the land of Israel, and the Torah.
The chosenness of Israel is not because they are better or more intelligent. The chosenness is a task. What is the nation of Israel chosen for? The torah writes clearly "to be a holy people unto me"
Ishmael (now Islaam) inherited an aspect of Abraham's initial mission. The spreading of monotheisism. But they did not inherit the land of Israel and the Torah. This is the "Segola". Being holy is setting an example. It is separating oneself and attaining complete perfection and connection to God. This is the chosenness of Israel. Through their efforts, work, and connection to God they will attain perfection and be an example to all the other nations. Chosenness is thus a very high responsiblility and not "betterness".
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chosen_People"
[edit] View of "The Rishonim", Artscroll publications
About 15 years ago, Artscroll published a book called "The Rishonim", by Rabbi Hirsch Goldwurm. In his entry on Moses De Leon, he briefly mentions how Moses claimed to come across the Zohar and how it contradicted some of his own philisophical works. However, due to limited resources, I cannot pursue this topic. I would like to ask the Wikipedia community to pick up on this topic.
More publishing information can problably found on their website.
And what about the zohar in Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille zur Macht
Thanks. --Arithmomaniac38 June 28, 2005 23:27 (UTC)
- I've got a copy and will try to condense that POV for this article. It will probably meet with the usual resistance, as secularists tend to dismiss the whole thing as fairytales. JFW | T@lk 12:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] AFD result
--Angr/tɔk tə mi 10:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] 85.64.76.154
85.64.76.154 (talk • contribs) has been campaigning hotly to have this article deleted. However, his arguments seem more to indicate that he/she feels there is an NPOV issue here.
The anon feels there is a lack of objective tone, no discussion about whether the legalistic material in the Zohar is legally binding, and too limited coverage on the various rates of acceptance within orthodox Judaism.
Some points:
- The halakhic role of the Zohar indeed needs to be mentioned, as it contradicts the Talmud frequently.
- The tone is fairly objective.
- Belief in the authorship of the Zohar is not a principle of Jewish faith. One can get into a mightly lot of trouble for saying that it was of Rishonic authorship, but it is still not a capital crime.
I would recommend to 85.64.76.154 that small edits with a good edit summary will probably not cause a stir, and larger edits need discussing here. JFW | T@lk 17:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Old stuff
I would add that this article is very dated and somewhat misinformed. There are several layers within and after Scholem. For example, Scholem's student, Isaiah Tishby, also thought the Zohar was the work of Moshe de Leon but he also added the earliest refutation was back in the early 13th century. Yehuda Liebes (another descendent of scholem, et al) has an amazing work from 15 years ago that demonstrates an alternative, and more probable origin for the work in a 'circle' of Kabbalists whom he identifies in detail. Furthermore, I really don't see the necessity to speak of the Christian Kabbalists here, but Liebes does have a very interesting article in the same book on Christianity in the Zohar ... if that is not too sensitive a subject.
[edit] Kabbalah Center translation
This is perhaps not the best place to ask this question, but could anyone comment on the Kabbalah Center translation in the External Links? I'm sort of torn between "Wow! what a wonderful thing" and trepidation about the quality considering who is responsible for it. That I can find on the site there is no indication who did the translation. Was it by a reputable scholar or some Kabbalah Center nut case? < Puck 04:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I am not exactly an expert in Zoharic Aramaic (i.e. I am far from it) but the translation of the Hebrew is odd too...They translate "Shoshana" as Lily.....its actually a Rose.....I believe a Lily is Chavatzeleth.....I would get a different translation....especially for the finer points....
In modern Hebrew, שושנה means "rose". However in Biblical Hebrew, it means "lily". Haldrik 09:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- As a note, Daniel Matt's translation gives both, but claims "rose" based on a Ladino translation of the verse in question, perhaps based on contemporary 12th/13th century language vs. Biblical language. MSJapan 09:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
