Talk:Zog of Albania
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An event in this article is a January 2 selected anniversary
If he was the second king, who was the first? --Wik 01:20, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)
- As far as I know Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy is the only other person to have been considered king of albania (List of Kings of Albania), but he came afterwards. Dori 02:07, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Essad Pasha, who had been Regent for the absentee Prince William (of Wied) declared himself King in 1919, and was assasinated 13-3-1920. He only controled parts of Albania. --Gerard von Hebel 02:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
When did Zog flee from Albania? Some sources say April 7, some say April 12. Andres 20:45, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- April 7 is correct. --Wik 20:54, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
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- Thank you. Another question. Victor Emmanuel of Italy became the King of Italia on April 16. Was this approved by the Assembly on April 12? Andres 21:53, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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- Yes, the Constituent Assembly made the decision on April 12 and on April 16 an Albanian delegation went to the Quirinale to offer the crown to Victor Emmanuel. --Wik 22:29, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
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- Thank you. Andres 22:34, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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- Was the Constituent Assembly just the National Assembly renamed? Andres 22:38, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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- No, it was a new body summoned by the provisional committee which took over the administration after the invasion. --Wik 23:07, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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- Thank you. You have such good sources. Please check the Timeline of Albanian history to 1993 for 1939. Andres 23:20, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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[edit] Silent execution
Precisely what is a "silent execution"? And what would an "implied threat of silent execution" be?
- I have no idea, but I am guessing it means an execution without trial, and one that is perfomed in secrecy (i.e. without public knowledge). --Dori 18:24, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Or perhaps maybe a disapearance, and never to be found again. (i.e. exile)
[edit] "Arab-Turkish"
I eliminated the phrase that said Albania had an "Arab-Turkish" society in the 1920s. The Arabs never ruled Albania and the social structures at the time were a legacy of Ottoman rule. --Jfruh 20:09, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup after 85.70.52.185
Could someone knowledgeable do cleanup after dozens of edits by 85.70.52.185? He has great fun putting jokes on other articles and this is possibly another one. Thanks. Pavel Vozenilek 11:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] member of Skanderbeg family???
What precisely makes this guy a member of the house of Scanderbeg???
Their own ambition, or an old folklore, or a proven descent???
I have seen good evidence that Skanderbeg's children later fled to south Italy, and the legitimate descent continued in certain Neapolitan princely houses.
Perhaps this is compatible with the knowledge that Turkish took Skanderbeg's bones and used them. What would they have done with Skanderbeg's heirs, had they got them. 217.140.193.123 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Albania Stalinist?
As far as I know Albania was closer to China than the Soviet Union and Maoist, not Stalinist. 125.209.153.134 11:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Who are Curri and Prishtina?
An anonymous editor added "Curri and Prishtina" as the names of Zog's political opponents during his presidency. I am guessing that "Prishtina" is Hasan Bej Prishtina but I can't find any "Curri" anywhere on the History of Albania (1919-1939) page or elsewhere. Can someone at least supply a full name for this person? --Jfruh 18:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a favour to ask-is there anyone who cans peak french,in order to translate the follwoing text about Zog withc contains vital information about him.I thank anyone who could asist me: "Ahmed Zogu voit le jour dans la région du Mati en 1894. Il est fils et petit-fils de pachas turcs, membres de l'illustre famille des Toptani. Cette filiation lui vaut le titre de Mati Bey. Pendant la Première Guerre Mondiale, Ahmed Zogu se bat dans les rangs de l'armée autrichienne. A sa démobilisation en 1918, il rentre en Albanie, désormais affranchie de toute domination étrangère. Serbophile convaincu, il manoeuvre sur le plan politique afin d'empêcher Essad Pacha de s'emparer du pouvoir. Essad est finalement arrêté et emprisonné. En 1920 Zogu est récompensé de ses efforts et prend la direction du Ministère de l'intérieur. La jeune république albanaise connaît enfin son premier gouvernement régulier mais la situation est délicate. Les conservateurs, héritiers des traditions féodales Ottomanes menacent la stabilité du pays, tandis qu'anarchistes et communistes oeuvrent de leur côté pour la conquête du pouvoir.
1922 apporte à Ahmed Zogu sa nomination au poste de Premier Ministre. De 1922 à 1924, Zogu tente d'assainir le pays qui risque à tout moment de basculer dans l'anarchie. Ses plans aboutissent en partie, mais une révolte populaire fomentée par des opposants en juin 1924, l'oblige à quitter le pays et à se réfugier en Yougoslavie. Tirana est aux mains des hommes de Fan Noli qui dissout l'assemblée nationale et s'empare de tous les leviers du pouvoir. Une fois de plus Zogu fait appel à ses amitiés serbes. Depuis Belgrade il travaille à son retour qui a symboliquement lieu le 24 décembre 1924.
Le 05 janvier 1925, Zogu forme un gouvernement provisoire sous le contrôle d'un conseil de régence. Le 31 janvier 1925, il remporte les élections et devient ainsi président de la République albanaise pour un mandat de sept ans. Simultanément le nouveau président décide de se rapprocher de l'Italie, puissance montante de la région. Les efforts diplomatiques albanais aboutissent à la signature du traité de Tirana, paraphé le 27 novembre 1926. L'Italie s'engage au statu quo.
Sa nation mise à l'abri derrière des frontières diplomatiquement sûres, Zogu reprend la lourde tâche d'assainir le pays sur le plan intérieur. Il séduit les grands chefs de clans féodaux albanais et reçoit de leurs parts une sorte de vote de confiance, le Bessa. Le président Zogu a enfin les mains libres pour entamer sa politique de reformes. Un canevas législatif est mis en place et les modes de calcul de l'impôt sont revus pour assurer une égalité des citoyens. D'importantes lois sont promulguées. Le Président soucieux d'éviter par tous les moyens un coup d'état apure l'armée de ses éléments les plus indésirables et décide de constituer une gendarmerie calquée sur le modèle français. En même temps, Zogu annonce sa décision de gracier les agitateurs emprisonnés puis de les libérer. Toutes ces mesures n'empêchent pourtant pas Zogu de se conduire en dictateur.
Cependant, la grande révolution date du 25 août 1928, avec l'institution par l'Assemblée Nationale de la Monarchie héréditaire, parlementaire et constitutionnelle. Le 01 septembre 1928, Zogu proclamé mbret (roi) devient Zog I. "La Grande Albanie Ethnique" est désormais une nation indépendante lancée sur la voie de la modernité. Tel est le discours officiel. Zog I mène une politique éclairée pour le plus grand bénéfice des albanais et aussi le sien ! Zog admirateur de la République Française, substitue le Code Civil Français au droit coutumier Ottoman et met en place le suffrage universel. La modernisation du pays se poursuit bon train : Routes, écoles, ponts se construisent aux quatre coins de la nation. Le féodalisme est aboli et l'Albanie proclame sa laïcité.
Mais pour assurer sa modernisation, l'Albanie doit pouvoir financer ses reformes. Le pays est encore très pauvre, trop pauvre... Zog I conscient de cet état de fait se tourne vers les banques du voisin italien qui investissent des sommes colossales non sans prendre au passage le contrôle de nombreuses entités économiques albanaises. Rome exige toujours plus de garanties. Zog signe le second pacte de Tirana en novembre 1927. Le roi tente de lutter contre la mainmise des italiens et cherche sur la scène internationale le moyen de rompre l'isolement de sa nation. Paris et Belgrade sont sollicités par le mbret afin d'accroître leurs investissements et de faire contrepoids aux italiens. Si Belgrade accepte de soutenir un peu plus Tirana, Paris tourne le dos à sa Majesté Zog I. Le Duce est furieux, lui qui a économiquement satellisé l'Albanie, ne laissera pas échapper sa proie aussi simplement ! En juin 1934, la marine italienne croise en Adriatique au large des côtés albanaises, l'avertissement est claire ! Les accords italo-albanais de mars 1936 enfoncent un peu plus le clou, faisant de l'Albanie une sorte de colonie italienne. Une société d'état italienne s'empare des leviers de l'économie du royaume. Zog se débat, mais n'obtient aucune aide dans son bras de fer avec le Duce.
1938 et 39 sonnent le glas du règne de Zog I... Ciano est chargé par Mussolini d'étudier la question de la conquête de l'Albanie par les troupes italiennes. La pression monte ! Rome présente un plan de coopération à sa Majesté Zog I en mars 1939 : Il ne s'agit ni plus ni moins, d'un plan d'annexion en bonne et due forme. Zog refuse et cherche à gagner du temps tandis que l'assemblée octroie au roi les pleins pouvoirs. Le 07 avril 39, l'armée italienne débarque sur les plages albanaises . 40.000 hommes appuyés par leur marine et la Regia Aeronautica s'enfoncent en Albanie. Que peuvent faire les soldats du Roi avec leurs armes dépassés ? dès le lendemain Tirana tombe, en trois jours les bersaglieri du Duce contrôle le pays.
Le 16 avril, Zog I dans l'obligation d'abdiquer remet sa couronne au roi italien Victor-Emmanuel III. Le roi albanais en exil, se réfugie en Grèce, puis en Turquie, Roumanie, Pologne, Estonie, Suède, Norvège et enfin en France. Son leitmotiv est d'éviter de tomber entre les mains des forces de l'Axe, car il espère bien un jour rentrer à Tirana afin d'y reprendre la direction de sa nation.
En mai 40, Zog quitte la France battue par les troupes du Reich et s'enfuit pour Londres. Fin 1944, l'Albanie est enfin libérée mais tombe sous la mainmise des communistes qui empêche tout retour du roi. En 1946, la famille royale part pour l'Egypte du roi Farouk, Zog I espérant ainsi bénéficier de l'appui des souverains arabes. C'est des USA inquiétés par la présence des communistes en Adriatique que l'espoir viendra pour Zog, espoir il faut le dire de courte durée... Un plan de soulèvement est imaginé par la CIA avec comme but de chasser les communistes et de remettre Zog sur le trône. L'opération de la "compagnie des 4.000" démarre en avril 52 mais est un véritable fiasco. Des fuites d'un espion double, Philby sont entre temps parvenues jusqu'à Tirana. Zog vient de perdre toute chance de retrouver l'Albanie et son peuple.
C'est usé et fatigué que Zog quitte l'Egypte, où Nasser vient de prendre le pouvoir, pour la France et la côte d'azur. En 1957, il proclame son fils Leka comme son seul et unique successeur. Malade, il est hospitalisé à Paris puis à Suresnes où il décède à 65 ans. Zog I repose aujourd'hui au cimetière parisien de Thiais (Ile de France).".
by Zog II.
[edit] Removing some comments on the page
First, Zog was not born a commoner. Zog was born an aristocrat, hence the Bej in his name. His father was a pasha and a governor of a province. Also, what does that mean he was mostly ignored by other European royality? Do we know that they mostly ignored him? Yes, since he was Muslim, having him marry another European royal would not have been possible. Could someone include a source? Isn't that a bit more of gossipy information? Does a statement like that really belong in an encylopedic article? Would I open World Book or Encyclopaedia Brittanica and find such a statement? Imperial78
- I based the first version of this article couple of years back to Jason Tomes' article in the September 2001 issue of History Today (one link here) ("cite your sources"-policy was less strict in those times). Unfortunately it clearly states that the European aristocrats ignored Zog, which seems to be very common view both among the historians and the aristocrats in question. Zog was not descended of any of the European royal or noble families and that is what unfortunately counted the most. Mussolini associated with him as a fellow military ruler (and later betrayed him) but the king of Italy did not. It is just a statement of an unfortunate fact - Skysmith 20:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Does this dispute hinge perhaps on the meaning of the term "ignore"? As the head of state and government of a European state (albeit a small one), obviously he wasn't "ignored" in the sense that other leaders pretended that he didn't exist. I think the sense of the word as originally used in the article is meant to imply that other European nobility and monarchy refused to acknowledge him as their equal in status. "Commoner" may be used in this sense as well: though his hereditary title of Bej gave him a noble status in the Ottoman culture into which he was born, other European nobility may have seen his family only as landed gentry, not as "true" nobles like themselves. As for whether this information constitutes "encyclopedic" knowledge -- well, the dealings of European royalty with one another may seem like tabloid fodder to us now, but clearly royal status was important to Zog, else he would have just billed himself as "president for life" or taken a quasi-republican popular title like his authoritarian/fascist counterparts around Europe were doing. Since he viewed being King as important to his policies, we should note how that policy played in other countries, though I admit that better sourcing and more concrete statements are in order. Did he make efforts to, say, have a state visit with Victor Emmanuel III that were snubbed? --Jfruh 20:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am just trying to keep the article to known facts about Zog. Also, we have to get away from Western Eurocentric thinking. He was a noble in Albania. It doesn't matter what the nobles in England or Austria would have thought about his status, if they really did at all. What is more interesting is his relationship with King Farouk of Egypt. King Farouk invited King Zog to live in Egypt, perhaps both being of Albanian background gave them a certain sense of kinship, but anyway let's try to keep biographies of a higher quality that include more relevant information. As I said before, a wikipedia article should include basic information that I would find in a publication like Encylopaedia Britannica and not gossipy fodder. Imperial78
- Zog was a European and it's not eurocentric to talk about what what other European monarchs thought of him. His wife was a Hungarian aristocrat. If he cared what other European nobles and monarchs thought, that should be in the article. If you read the article, you'd see that the country that Albania had the most important relationship with was Italy. It would be interesting to talk about what Farouk thought about Zog as well, of course; if you know something, why not add it? One of the reasons that Albania is interesting is that it is both a European and a Muslim county. The advantage of Wikipedia is, unlike a paper encyclopedia, there isn't a restriction on the amount of space. As much sourced information as we can find should be in the article. --Jfruh 21:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- Albania is part of Europe. And Jfruh is right; European countries did have diplomatic relations with Zog's Albania but the European royalty and aristocracy did not consider him worthy of their attention. His daughters travelled extensively but they were treated as celebrities, not as royalty. Because Zog considered himself a king, what the European royals thought about him is a fact and encyclopedic information. And if you do have good information about Zog's relations with the king Farouk, it would be a very worthy inclusion to the article. - Skysmith 11:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps a bit of a snub of King Zog from the other royals was that Albania rejected Prince William of Wied. Albania unlike other eastern European countries rejected a foreign prince as their sovereign. Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece all had foreign princes put on their thrones. Albania along with what became Yugoslavia had natives as their sovereigns. Most European royal families are in fact of German families (or Germanic). Just reading some geneologies, Zogu is a direct descendant of the Princess of Kruja, Mamica or Monica who married a Zogu Pasha (Governor of Seli-Mati). Imperial78
- If you can provide sources for that, that also could be a worthy inclusion. -Skysmith
- I found the Princess of Kruja info here: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Albania/zogu.htm As with any online site, you can't always believe it, but he has sources. Imperial78
- If you can provide sources for that, that also could be a worthy inclusion. -Skysmith
- Perhaps a bit of a snub of King Zog from the other royals was that Albania rejected Prince William of Wied. Albania unlike other eastern European countries rejected a foreign prince as their sovereign. Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece all had foreign princes put on their thrones. Albania along with what became Yugoslavia had natives as their sovereigns. Most European royal families are in fact of German families (or Germanic). Just reading some geneologies, Zogu is a direct descendant of the Princess of Kruja, Mamica or Monica who married a Zogu Pasha (Governor of Seli-Mati). Imperial78
- Albania is part of Europe. And Jfruh is right; European countries did have diplomatic relations with Zog's Albania but the European royalty and aristocracy did not consider him worthy of their attention. His daughters travelled extensively but they were treated as celebrities, not as royalty. Because Zog considered himself a king, what the European royals thought about him is a fact and encyclopedic information. And if you do have good information about Zog's relations with the king Farouk, it would be a very worthy inclusion to the article. - Skysmith 11:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zog was a European and it's not eurocentric to talk about what what other European monarchs thought of him. His wife was a Hungarian aristocrat. If he cared what other European nobles and monarchs thought, that should be in the article. If you read the article, you'd see that the country that Albania had the most important relationship with was Italy. It would be interesting to talk about what Farouk thought about Zog as well, of course; if you know something, why not add it? One of the reasons that Albania is interesting is that it is both a European and a Muslim county. The advantage of Wikipedia is, unlike a paper encyclopedia, there isn't a restriction on the amount of space. As much sourced information as we can find should be in the article. --Jfruh 21:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am just trying to keep the article to known facts about Zog. Also, we have to get away from Western Eurocentric thinking. He was a noble in Albania. It doesn't matter what the nobles in England or Austria would have thought about his status, if they really did at all. What is more interesting is his relationship with King Farouk of Egypt. King Farouk invited King Zog to live in Egypt, perhaps both being of Albanian background gave them a certain sense of kinship, but anyway let's try to keep biographies of a higher quality that include more relevant information. As I said before, a wikipedia article should include basic information that I would find in a publication like Encylopaedia Britannica and not gossipy fodder. Imperial78
- Does this dispute hinge perhaps on the meaning of the term "ignore"? As the head of state and government of a European state (albeit a small one), obviously he wasn't "ignored" in the sense that other leaders pretended that he didn't exist. I think the sense of the word as originally used in the article is meant to imply that other European nobility and monarchy refused to acknowledge him as their equal in status. "Commoner" may be used in this sense as well: though his hereditary title of Bej gave him a noble status in the Ottoman culture into which he was born, other European nobility may have seen his family only as landed gentry, not as "true" nobles like themselves. As for whether this information constitutes "encyclopedic" knowledge -- well, the dealings of European royalty with one another may seem like tabloid fodder to us now, but clearly royal status was important to Zog, else he would have just billed himself as "president for life" or taken a quasi-republican popular title like his authoritarian/fascist counterparts around Europe were doing. Since he viewed being King as important to his policies, we should note how that policy played in other countries, though I admit that better sourcing and more concrete statements are in order. Did he make efforts to, say, have a state visit with Victor Emmanuel III that were snubbed? --Jfruh 20:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I concour with the comments of Imperial78, His Majersty did have a family tree which included royalty and was considered an aristocrat in Albania! He held the title of Bey, the equivalent to a Lord etc. in the UK. It is foolish to suppose he did not. He was not ignored by other royals; his sister married the son of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and his wife was a Hungarian aristocrat! (129.234.4.10 22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Declared himself King?
HM King Zog did not declare himself King at a whim, it would be foolish to believe he did. He was declared King by the national assembly, this was done at the will of the people, if not he could not have succeeded. (Couter-revolutionary 18:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
- To be more exact he made himself declared as a king - Skysmith 16:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are trying to say. The people of Albania wanted King Zog as their King, there is no denying he was a popular monarch during his reign. He was not forced out be revolution but by enemy invaders. He was declared King, but not by himself, by the people, it was a constitutional monarchy. (Couter-revolutionary 21:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Npov
I'm still getting used to doing things on wiki, and so obviously articles with various tags are of interest to me. could someone, preferably the person who put it there, explain what the NPOV problem is? after spending a couple hours a night roaming the various unfinished articles, lack of citations, clean-up efforts etc etc. it seems like half the backlog in any section is simply someone looking at the article and slapping a quick tag on it. articles that are marked to be wikified that should be stubs, outdated tags never removed etc etc. so if someone could explain why theres an NPOV tag with no explaination as why i'd appreciate it. Syzergy 02:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- The fast and simple way of getting an answer to your question is for you to remove the NPOV tag, and see who hollers. Bill 19:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Monty Python references
Could someone name other Monty Python Zog references and possibly,if they were visual, download a photo(screencap)? New Babylon
[edit] Transgender References
The reason that I removed the transgender references is that they trivialize Wikipedia. There can be no justification for including such material in this Wikipedia article. The inclusion of references to popular culture, entertainment, and such trivia in Wikipedia articles has opened the gates for worse material such as this. Wikipedia has many articles that gratuitously contain adolescent references to homosexuality, gayness, and transvestitism. This is the result of the intention of people who have these immature interests to legitimize their own behavior and to make it acceptable by giving it maximum exposure.Lestrade 13:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Did this article contain any transgender references?--Couter-revolutionary 12:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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- On September 17, 2006, at 13:16, I removed two sentences from the article. Those sentences asserted that the part of Zog was portrayed in a film by a female actress. This can be seen by viewing the article's history. It was my belief that the removed sentences were of no informational value and also that they were merely another example of the widespread intention of homosexuals to use Wikipedia as a way of legitimizing their adolescent behavior. Lestrade 17:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
- Righto, must have missed that, quite right.--Couter-revolutionary 17:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I have no authority here. If anyone thinks differently from me, they have a perfect right to reverse my deletion. I am only motivated to make Wikipedia a better and more informational encyclopedia and to purge it of such childishness as the fascination with women who dress like men, and vice versa.Lestrade 17:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
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[edit] External Links
A lot of these external links are frivolous. Do we really need a link to "Coin" etc? I propose weeding out the more frivolous ones.
[edit] Assassination Attempt
I have a query about the assassination attempt that was made in 1931 in Vienna, where King Zog shot back at his assassins (which, incidentally, was featured in the film Aria, though the factual content of the episode as portrayed there may be disputed). Did King Zog kill or wound his would-be assassins, or did they simply flee and escape? Only I recall being told that Zog's claim to historical fame lay in the fact that he was the only monarch to have taken up arms against would-be assassins and fought back, which if true, makes him a fairly remarkable individual, doesn't it? Anyway, if additional details about the assassination attempt come to light, I'd like to hear more about this. Calilasseia 04:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have not seem the film to which you are referring, the incident did, however occur. It is outlined in Jason Toames' book "King Zog; Self-Made Monarch", this is why I was able to include the details of which opera he was watching &c. I am not sure if he managed to kill the assassins, however, some of this bodyguards were killed during the incident, which, is why he had to start shooting himself. Yes, I thin you are right, Zog was a very remarkable man, not least for being able to fight off would-be assassins! His son was involved in a, not dissimilar incident in Botswana too!--Couter-revolutionary 09:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
