Talk:Zig Zag Girl
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This is the text from the original article: [1]. I redirected and merged into this one. I place the text here for archiving.
The Zig Zag illusion (originally Zig Zag Girl) is a famous and well-known stage grand illusion.
In this illusion, a person is placed inside a cabinet divided into three boxes, with their head, both hands, and a foot visible. Metal sheet blades are inserted in the two gaps between the boxes, and the middle box is then moved to one side, creating the effect of the person having been sliced into three independantly movable pieces. To reinforce this impression, their face and left hand are visible in the top box, their right hand (often waving a silk or flag) in the middle box, and their left foot in the bottom box. The boxes are then reassembled and the person revealed unharmed.
Because of the manner in which the illusion is achieved, it is generally performed with a female assistant, and there are limitations on her height and weight. Some of these issues are overcome in Modern Art, an illusion created by Jim Steinmeyer.
The method of this trick was exposed by the Masked Magician, Valentino, as part of Fox TV series called Breaking the Magician's Code: Magic's Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed. --Muchosucko 18:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Please see talk page before blanking
Please go here before blanking again. There's been a lot of talk about this. Please respect that. Talk:Sawing_a_woman_in_half --Muchosucko 21:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- I can't seem to find any discussion about this topic that resolves things one way or the other. The reason not to give away magic secrets are numerous:
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- It is not considered ethical behavior. It is damaging to the craft of magic to divulge secrets that are known by "insiders" because it devalues the craft and kills the impetus to perform. For example, divulging the secret to the zig-zag makes it that much more likely that we won't see it performed in the future, something I can't believe any magic fan would want.
- Regardless of the actual legal implications of various copyright/patent/trademark restrictions, it is immoral to divulge secrets to inventions created by others. Simply put, the secret to this illusion is not ours to give away.
- No other general-knowledge encyclopedia gives away magic secrets. By not following a principle followed in other encyclopedias, a core principle of Wikipedia is being violated. --Mattsnyder 21:14, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Matt, it's a better idea to read and post your thoughts here: Talk:Out_of_This_World_(card_trick). More people will see it and you will have a better discussion. I am probably the only person looking at this page now. Most of the points you raise have already been raised and addressed at that page - if not, you should put it there, not here - We need to centralize and organize our discussion. There may be a resolution reached soon. With enough interest, the WikiProject on magic might establish some offical guidlines Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Magic#Disagreeing. --Muchosucko 21:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Muchosucko, I've read through all of the discussions and I've found nothing conclusive on them except on the "Disagreeing" page which said "exposure should be limited to only the most basic magic effects." The zig-zag is certainly not one of the most basic effects in magic. One of the most popular, certainly, but that hardly qualifies it for "basic" status. So after reading all of that, I still conclude it is wrong to divulge magic secrets on this page, and the secret should be removed. As reluctant as I am to continue this discussion on this page, I guess I can only ask this: why would anyone want to divulge these secrets? What is the point? It has always been considered immoral to divulge magic secrets...how has Wikipedia changed that?--Mattsnyder 21:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Matt, No one will change the fact that you consider divulging magic secrets immoral. No one wants to. But the consensus on the talk page I linked seems to be that it is moral. You can add your vote there. As of now, the most experienced editors with the most contributions to thier credits: User:Bovlb, User:Finlay_McWalter, User:Willmcw, User:TenOfAllTrades, User:MacGyverMagic have not raised objections. Partly because opposition began about a month ago with deep vandalism, of which you may have been a part. People disregarded the discussions editors carefully worked out in talk pages and indiscriminately blanked articles: It gave a very bad first impression to the magician's argument. Most of this opposition came from many new accounts, inexperienced Wiki users, and possible sockpuppets, further diminishing the weight of their arguments. There is still not enough attention from either side to go ahead with policy creation Wikipedia:How_to_create_policy, mostly because the number of reveals and the number of Magic articles is still very very small and inconsequential. Again, posting here is probably not a good idea, I may transplant this page so that more people can consider what we've discussed Talk:Out_of_This_World_(card_trick).--Muchosucko 22:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Muchosucko, I've read through all of the discussions and I've found nothing conclusive on them except on the "Disagreeing" page which said "exposure should be limited to only the most basic magic effects." The zig-zag is certainly not one of the most basic effects in magic. One of the most popular, certainly, but that hardly qualifies it for "basic" status. So after reading all of that, I still conclude it is wrong to divulge magic secrets on this page, and the secret should be removed. As reluctant as I am to continue this discussion on this page, I guess I can only ask this: why would anyone want to divulge these secrets? What is the point? It has always been considered immoral to divulge magic secrets...how has Wikipedia changed that?--Mattsnyder 21:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Matt, it's a better idea to read and post your thoughts here: Talk:Out_of_This_World_(card_trick). More people will see it and you will have a better discussion. I am probably the only person looking at this page now. Most of the points you raise have already been raised and addressed at that page - if not, you should put it there, not here - We need to centralize and organize our discussion. There may be a resolution reached soon. With enough interest, the WikiProject on magic might establish some offical guidlines Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Magic#Disagreeing. --Muchosucko 21:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I think it's true that the exposure shouldn't be there in this case - because it's described as just being "my best guess as to how it's done" on the History page, and is thus original research.
Certainly it does not appear to line up with the posted photograph (there is no apparant "contortion space" around the central pillar)
-- Hyphz
- It's my best guess. And it's a pretty good one, if I might add. You pointed out the posted photograph as proof that my solution was questionable. I'm glad you did, because I inspected that picture once again, and it convinced me that I got the solution right on. So thanks for that. I'll give you one more hint and tell you that your reaction is exactly what Harbin would've wanted. It's a great trick, I admit.--Muchosucko 23:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Oh, fair enough. Perhaps for my (and other's?) benefit, you could add a touched-up version of the photo to indicate where the true boundaries of the box are? (Eg, is the spectating woman's hand actually TOUCHING the cabinet?) The reason why I'm cautious about this is that there's a book by Derren Brown where he basically comments that an incorrect exposure can be even worse than a correct one. It has the same "devaluing" effect that the magic vandals complain about so much, and at the same time it isn't useful to any magician genuinely interested in the trick because it's wrong. Moreover, any attempts by the magician to prove the exposure wrong (for instance, by displaying the appropriate parts of the trick) are easily rejected which breaks down the whole "I am decieving you but you'll let me because it's fun" social contract and replaces it with a kind of numb cynicism. I'm not saying you are wrong, or even that you should remove what you've posted, just that posting "best guesses" might not be the best idea as a general rule. -- Hyphz, 15:02 GMT 29 Jul 2005
- Now that you've prompted me again, I'm doubly sure this is exactly how its done. You should also look at the video link. Read my explanation closely (I don't think you did) then watch the video like 10 times, then read my explanation closely 5 times. Another hint: notice the when the camera cuts to another camera in the video: you'll rarely see the back of the box because it shows the blades only taking up a small portion of the vertical space. Look at the blades he inserts, he does them very carefully. Watch the video closely. Again, Harbin has fooled you good.]]--Muchosucko 16:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, fair enough. Perhaps for my (and other's?) benefit, you could add a touched-up version of the photo to indicate where the true boundaries of the box are? (Eg, is the spectating woman's hand actually TOUCHING the cabinet?) The reason why I'm cautious about this is that there's a book by Derren Brown where he basically comments that an incorrect exposure can be even worse than a correct one. It has the same "devaluing" effect that the magic vandals complain about so much, and at the same time it isn't useful to any magician genuinely interested in the trick because it's wrong. Moreover, any attempts by the magician to prove the exposure wrong (for instance, by displaying the appropriate parts of the trick) are easily rejected which breaks down the whole "I am decieving you but you'll let me because it's fun" social contract and replaces it with a kind of numb cynicism. I'm not saying you are wrong, or even that you should remove what you've posted, just that posting "best guesses" might not be the best idea as a general rule. -- Hyphz, 15:02 GMT 29 Jul 2005
Image:Harbin trick further explaination.JPG
[edit] Proposal re. magic methods
See the proposal: Policy for magic methods --TStone 16:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
- Page moved to Wikipedia:Proposed policy for magic methods. --cesarb 14:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Video Links
The video links in the article are currently (temporarily?) broken. Jgm 18:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
