Talk:Zhang Ziyi

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[edit] The Banquet (2006)

Hi guys, i've created a site for her latest movie "The Banquet" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banquet_%282006_film%29, under Banquet (2006 Film). Could someone please help me link it? I'm new...


[edit] Picture

I do not believe that the picture displayed with this article is from "Hero" nor is it in any way appropriate for an encyclopedia with such a general audience.

Some asshole uploaded that picture with the exact same file name of one I had uploaded months ago. I've reverted that picture vandalism and its all fixed now.--Kross 13:37, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Not as far as I can see it ain't. Clever of whoever it was. Lao Wai 13:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Hit F5. Your browser's cache is probably still loading the old version. I encountered the same problem.--Kross 13:48, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Just out of sheer curiosity, what was the picture of exactly?. (12:14, 25 March 2006 24.23.6.222)
If I remember correctly it was a pornographic picture with ZZY's face photoshoped on it. Not even a particularly good one. I think the present one is a vast improvement. Seriously. Lao Wai 12:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is she Japanese? and non-native names

If not, why is a Japanese name added to this article? I bet she is also known by other non-native names in 200 other languages, you cannot add every one of them except her native name in Chinese. Kowloonese 09:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Name removed for now, I guess you guys can put it back up if you want.
I will also say that she's apparently quite famous in Japan for doing a bunch of hair shampoo commericials for Kao Corp., as well as for her role in the upcoming movie "Memoirs of a Geisha". Ikusawa 17:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
On the other hand she isn't Cantonese either. Lao Wai 17:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Good point! I'm going to remove the Cantonese names, which are not "native". If Cantonese names are listed then Chaozhou, Minnan, Xiang, Wu etc should also be included. LDHan 22:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I'd really like to see an accurate pronunciation key for her name. As it is I have no idea how to pronounce it.

Zhang Ziyi has a whole lot of difficult sounds for your average English-speaking foreigner. And I can't do it justice with this keyboard. The initial "Zh" sound in "Zhang" sort of sounds like a "J" crossed with a "Z" in English. The "-ang" final sounds like it looks. "Zi" is a problem because the "i" is not pronounced. The "Z" is similar to the "Zh" except it is a dental silbilant, not a retroflex (many northern Chinese have a clear "r" sound). It is, more or less, half way between a "t" and an "s" but without a strong outflow of air (which would be a "ci"). "Yi", thankfully, sounds just like it is spelled. Lao Wai 12:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The "i" in "zi" and "ci" is certainly pronounced, they have the same vowel sound. "Yi" is pronounced as "i" (this "i" is different to the "i" in "zi"), for English speakers it's the long "ee" sound as in "bee", "y" in "yi" is not pronounced. LDHan 22:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm American and Caucasian, and I've met a number of Chinese women, and I can tell you that I can never pronounce Ziyi's name the way they do! I think Mandarin, Cantonese, and all the Chinese dialects just have too many sounds that are difficult to pronounce for Americans. Lots of x's and z's. So although I use a "z" when pronouncing her name, I think it's more of an "x." Japanese, on the other hand I think is a whole heck of a lot easier for Americans. But Ziyi of course is Chinese.

Nah, it's not really that hard. The "zh" is very, very close to the "j" in English words like "job". The "a" is exactly the same as the "a" in "father" (in an American accent). The "z" is pronounced "dz", just the same as in the word "endzone". The only hard sound is the first "i", but if you can pronounce it like the "uh" in "uh-huh", that will be close enough. The second "i" is an "ee" sound, just like the "i" in "prestige". It doesn't matter whether you pronounce the y or not. So, it's basically, "Jahng Dzuh-ee". - Nat Krause(Talk!) 06:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
And of course if you want to pronounce in the correct way you also need to say it in the right tones. LDHan 04:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, just as Chinese is difficult for English spoken people, English is difficult for Chinese as well. English has too many "th"s, which is extremely difficult for foreigners. It's very easily for me to pronounce "thanks" as "sanx". Moreover, Chinese language doesn't tell the difference of "w" and "v". So few Chinese people can say "very well" as Americans do. It could be either "wery well" or "very vell". -132.234.251.211 02:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

"Among the characters of her name, Zhāng (章) is her surname (not to be confused with the more common Zhāng 张)".
These two instances of "Zhāng" look the same to me - should the accent on the "ā" be omitted on one instance? Gram 16:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
They are written the same way in pinyin. They also have the same tone (first). So the "accent" (actually a tonal register) should not be omitted on either. The point is that written in Chinese they are different surnames. Spoken in Chinese, they sound the same. Lao Wai 16:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Name

Is it totally necessary to elaborate on what her name means, especially in the beginning paragraph intro? No other Chinese actor has such extensive writing about their name. If people want to find out the meaning of "Ziyi" they can look it up on their own. Dissecting her name belongs in a Trivia section if there is one. --WongFeiHung 04:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Well it is probably not totally necessary, but is it true and does it hurt? People, non-Chinese speaking people especially, may have a little trouble looking up her name in a dictionary. I think that it would be nice for other actors to have more explanation of their names - I am perfectly happy to do so for Maggie Cheung! Lao Wai 11:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes it does hurt. Adding this paragraph on her name is reminiscent of fan boy websites. No one does this to encyclopaedia articles unless in a "Trivia" section - because it's simply that: trivia. It's fan boy curiosity to know about Ziyi's name and it's decreasing the legitimacy of this online article. "A little trouble looking up her name" is crap. That's what people do if they want to look up any other Chinese person's name, and any person's name for that matter. Heck, English names don't get that useless treatment even though they're derived from Latin or Arabic words - are you going to go around changing them too? because it's trivial info that definitely shouldn't be so prominent in an article. --WongFeiHung 14:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Who cares what it is reminiscent of? It is not trivia to Chinese people who work quite hard on getting names right. Who cares if it is fan boy curiosity and your snobbery towards said fan boys does not detract from the value of the inclusion. Exactly how are people going to look up her name if they do not have any Chinese? If I saw an interesting case, I probably would. It is not prominent. It simply follows from the natural place for it - after the characters of her name. Lao Wai 15:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain why the fact Zhang means a chapter in a book has any relevance with the actress? Then could you do the grace of explaining what Tony Leung, Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige's surname mean? Mandel 11:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I am more than happy with the idea of explaining the meaning of the Chinese characters in people's names. In this specific case it seems a little odd to me to explain the personal name and not the surname. It is relevant to the person concerned, it is of interest, it is true. On what grounds would you exclude it? Lao Wai 12:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Because one's surnames' meaning are acquired independently from the usual dictionary meaning of a book. One cannot and does not choose one's surname, unlike one's given name. Hence Zhang Ziyi's Zhang has nothing to do with chapters in a book or essay, nor does Zhang Yimou's Zhang with "opening". Chinese characters evolve through thousands of years. If you want to explain really what those surnames mean, you would go back to the time when surnames are incepted. Mandel 12:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I am unconvinced that surnames have meaning independent from dictionaries. Everyone has a rough idea of what people's surnames mean. When they see Zhang Yimou's name they will think of archers or even, perhaps appropriately, beds. Zhang has chosen to use her name professionally rather than change it. She has as little control over her appearance but her photo is included. It is of interest to other people. I think the meaning of her surname is also of interest to people. What possible reason would there be to remove it? Lao Wai 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia is an encyclopedia, Lao Wai, it is not just any fan site. Why is it appropriate, you fail to convince me. Like I say, the meaning of surnames have changed over the years. Some surnames has no meaning (like for example Zhou, Zhao, Zheng etc). Also surnames are shared by millions of Chinese people. This particular surname, shared by millions in China, has no unique relevance to the person Zhang Ziyi. She could be Chen Ziyi or Wang Ziyi for all I care, it makes no particular difference to most readers. If you want to explain what the surname means, go to the Wikipedia page for Zhang. At present her name's meaning is gibberish: "Chapter, Child of Happiness". Mandel 13:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not see this article being in danger of becoming a fan site any time soon. It is true, it is factual, it is of interest to some people anyway. It does not matter if the meanings of surnames have changed. Of course Zhou has a meaning. The character "Zi" is used in millions of names as well but its meaning is included. It is the combination that matters. It makes no difference to you but look at how much of this Talk Page is devoted to her name. It obviously makes a difference to some people. I don't think that is a sensible way to translate her name and of course you would not include the surname with the rest of her name if someone wanted to. We are still down to the bottom line - it is true, it is factual, it is relevant and it is of interest to some people. Why wouldn't we include it? Some people, like Muawiya, have sections devoted to their names. Lao Wai 13:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
You are contradicting yourself. People are complaining because people like me feel the surname's meaning is not relevant to the person, not because I do. You are the only person here who feel it is important. You also fail to answer my question: why do you not include it into the article Zhang (surname) instead of Zhang Ziyi. It is far more relevant there. Then you can link it to this article. What makes this surname unique just to her and not to millions who share her surname? Mandel 13:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not see how I am contradicting myself. By "people" you mean "you". No doubt we would both claim to have majority support, but I would point to the fact that the majority of this page is devoted to her name as a sign of interest in that topic. If there was a Zhang(surname) page and I felt like editing it, I might. But we are here and I am editing this page. It is irrelevant whether this surname is unique to her or not. Her given name isn't either. What matters is whether it is true and worth including. It is true and I think it is worth including. Why, as I asked before, wouldn't we include it? Why only her personal name and not her surname? Lao Wai 14:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
You are talking gibberish. We are not interested in her surname's meaning. Only you are, please admit it. Out of the three meager persons who discussed it, 2 disapproved of including it. Can you stop being egocentric? You said you think it is worth including, two persons have argued that it should not. I would stop this discussion at once if you would remove, it is of no interest to me. You refuse it include it under the proper article of Zhang (surname), where it should go. You are just being obnoxiously childish.
Let's do an experiment. I'll go to Hu Jintao's article and make a note about his surname. Then we'll see how the response is. Meanwhile I'll link that to this discussion. Mandel 14:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
By "we" I assume you mean "you". The other guy objected to her personal name, not her surname. Self-evidently ZZY's surname does not belong in Zhang (surname) because they are two different surnames. I agree I said I think it is worth including. I do not think I am alone in that. By all means, have a go with Hu Jintao's name. Let me know how you get on. Lao Wai 14:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
And incidentally I object to you lying about what I want. If you change Hu's page, especially in such an asinine manner, it is your doing, your decision, your obvious strawman example, not mine or anything to do with me. Lao Wai 14:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The other guy said "her name", he did not say "personal name". Obviously if you remove one the other must go as well. "Strawman" is there to show that your interest is in Zhang Ziyi, you are not interested in improving the overall interest of Wikipedia's naming conventions on the whole. If it can apply to Zhang Ziyi, why not to Hu Jintao? Mandel 15:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"If people want to find out the meaning of "Ziyi" they can look it up on their own." Funny he did not mention Zhang. Your asinine assumptions about my interests are irrelevant. In fact my interests are irrelevant. I won't even ask how you think an interest in ZZY follows on to a desire to keep a translation of her name there. Why not to Hu Jintao? I can think of no reason to also include it there as well. But of course it would have to be more than childish vandalism but a properly structured passage. Just how many pages did you vandalise to make this silly point of yours? Lao Wai 15:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
It's pointless to argue with you. If people think I'm vandalising they will treat me like one, that is banned me. If what I do is vandalism, you are also a vandal, because what I do is exactly what you are doing to the Zhang Ziyi article. So I hope we are in agreement that you are a vandal? Mandel 15:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
It's fine with me to remove those things about Ziyi as well. Sorry, it's still 2:1. Mandel 15:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it is pointless to talk to me but you would have to actually talk to me and not simply insult me and ignore whatever it is I have to say. I am doing nothing of the sort. Someone else translated her name. I fixed it a bit. You objected and I saw some sense in making it shorter. And it is. But here it remains a properly balanced, properly edited piece of information that some people, at least, have found interesting. Unlike your silly attempts to provoke anger you, I guess, hope will translate over here. I reject the idea I have vandalised a thing. And I also reject the idea it is 2:1 to you. You still do not have a single coherent reason for removing this piece of information. Lao Wai 15:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
We shall see whether adding information about the meaning of surnames are well taken or not. I will not insult you if you don't do it to me. Whatever. Let the case rest and let others join in the debate. Unlike you, I'm not adverse to the idea of others letting their opinions known. Mandel 15:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Well we shall see if people object to your childish additions to other pages. I would hope they will be able to see the difference here but as you say, we shall see. You have gone out of your way to insult me and insult me first. I find you comments on that absurd. You can't even resist adding another little one at the end can you? Where have I objected to anyone letting their opinions being known? I have even listened to yours. Lao Wai 15:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
We better stop now. If you are not adverse to the idea, you need not react when I did those "additions". Vandal or not, I did those, not you. Also, it is styled exactly after what you did to this article. I hope you now see how ridiculous they were. I said you were childish because you refuse to link to the Zhang (surname) page and remove from this page, where it should go. You kept making baseless claims (saying people are interested in her name when none here shows any) and you kept saying things like "well, here's what I'm doing here and I don't see why I shouldn't do that." One on one I have nothing to say. If you are really really democratic, you should have gone to the proper channels such as Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) and solicit for opinions, not stick to yours when two had already obviously objected. Anyway, I'll go there and ask for opinions. Mandel 16:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Clearly, this Lao Wei guy just is interested in Zhang Ziyi alone, not about improving an article for what it is. No other article has this trivia precisely because it's worthless. I side with Mandel in that it's absolutely absurd to include such lengthy writing on every character of her name, especially in the first paragraph. I'm editing for the sake of Wikipedia quality. --WongFeiHung 14:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the giant table about her name (that's under her main picture) is quite enough, if not already excessive. --WongFeiHung 22:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that we should explain the meaning of 子怡 in the article somewhere, although it shouldn't go in the lead, because it's not really very important. The meaning of 章 is almost totally irrelevant. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 19:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the surname suggests refinement and elegance. The structure of the character shows 10 (out of 10) sounds, i.e., the whole measure of a song, the entirely. fully expressed idea of a section of a book, etc. Given names should express a hope for the child, something like naming one's daughter Chastity or Prudence or Benedict or Victor in English. So the "di3" would seem to me to be "child/descendent who is..." Is there an equivalent analysis of the name of someone who is much more important, e.g., Mao2 (body hair) Ze2 (gives benefit to) Dong1 (the East)? There may actually be some reason for such an analysis in the case of a Stalin or a Jiang Zhong-zheng -- people who have given themselves a politically significant name for obvious purposes. But I fail to see the need for such analyses in this case. (Would we analyze the given name in a phrase like "the tenth husband of Constance Higgins Peabody?") P0M 23:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nat- explain her given name in a suitable (i.e. less prominent) place (such as the early life section), but not the surname. And please don't vandalise other articles to make points. HenryFlower 20:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If the given name was chosen specifically because of how it combines with the surname, i.e. if given name plus surname have a particular meaning when added together, then it should be kept. If the whole name means something, that the given name alone does not imply, it should be kept. I see no real harm in explaining the meaning of either name, as long as the explanation is brief. In truth the meaning of the name says more about the person who "gave" the name than it does about the person to whom it belongs. Either way, it's not worth getting het up about. Gram 16:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the meaning of her family name does matter because of her frequent association with Zhang Yimou. It's worth mentioning that their family names are not the same in Chinese although they are pronounced the same.

Most of Chinese surnames do not mean anything. However, the given names usually reflect what their parents hope them to become, and therefore should be explained. In this case, 子怡 refers to a happy child or the happiness of a child (perhaps her parents were happy to have a child). The name is in short form, as Chinese names only have 3 characteres. From what people have said about "Chapter, Child of Happiness", its obvious that someone has used computer technology (which does not recognise short forms) to translate Mandarin into English, which is absolute nonsense. LOL, what a joke! --Terrancommander 06:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Look, there are like five thousand ways to write "Chan" in Chinese, as with other surnames. Should we then be going around changing every article of a Chinese person with the last name Chan, so that there's an explanation of each person's name? Clearly, the massive paragraph on Zhang Ziyi's name is only there because of some strange desire to clear up Western fan boy confusion, or probably even just plain fan boy fanaticism on part of the contributor, which is totally unnecessary for an encyclopaedia. Make a TRIVIA section for this article, and place all the dictionary derived meanings there. --WongFeiHung 14:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
We certainly should explain which Chan surname is being used. It is hardly massive. I did not contribute it as it happens and even if I did I do not see how my motivations would matter. But you seem to feel a need to attempt to belittle and humiliate. I wonder why. Mother not like you or something? In the meantime do you have a point here besides your self-righteous snobbery towards fan boys? Lao Wai 15:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Look here, guys. Not much point arguing over a surname is there? In Ziyi's case, it's obvious that the surname "Zhang" does not mean anything at all in this context, similar to a few other such Chinese surnames like Guo. We should just label the surname and make sure that it is not confused with the more common "Zhang". However, the given name does have a meaning, usually chosen by carefully by Chinese parents for certain meanings (unlike Christian names). May I suggest here that those "Angmohs" who are not familiar in Chinese (whether naming or meaning or otherwise) please do not edit... Machines are not perfect. In this case, could be Ziyi's parents see a child "Zi", then are happy "Yi", or they think the child brings them happiness, haha. Best simple solution: Ask Ziyi what her name means on her fan site. Don't make personal attacks too... --Terrancommander 17:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Except Chinese people will know that a name is supposed to be read out in full. So it is unlikely that someone called "Zhang" is going to choose a name for their child which does not take into account the fact it will be said Zhang Ziyi, not just Ziyi. A parent will pick a given name that goes with the family name - it counts for the eight characters. I don't see the logic in only translating the given name. Both or neither. I do not see any sign that anyone is using a machine. An odd assumption on your part. And if you're going to waive NPA policies about, perhaps you might like to direct them more appropriately? Lao Wai 17:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course when Chinese names are read out in full it's surname+given name, nevertheless the meaning of a Chinese name is usually only the meaning of the given name. Since usually you can't choose the surname, it's meaning, if it has a meaning, is not included in the meaning of a person's name. I suppose exceptions include pen names, stage names etc. LDHan 18:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to know since when do you call your friend/child/student/whatever by the surname or full name? I fully agree with LDHan, the surname doesn't have a meaning in this context, cannot be chosen, and its explanation should not be included. If one reads the discussions at the top about the meaning of the name, he is certain to find out that some people have been calling her "Chapter", obviously a machine translation, right? May I point out that you and I probably both know very well that some of the remarks you have made could be considered as personal attacks, Lao Wai. Ask any administrator, I'll wager they'll probably tell you so. --Terrancommander 13:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
It still has a meaning in this context. The parents cannot change a surname, or should not, but they can pick a personal name which goes with the surname. God knows there are enough personal names that should not go with some surnames because it may create a homonym. It is all part of picking a proper Chinese name. You do not want a name that sounds inappropriate. Zhang is usually used to mean chapter. At least when I come across it. Why is that obviously a machine? I do not think I have attacked anyone personally, but if people go out of their way to insult me I am unlikely to be as mild and forgiving as I usually am. Given repeated personal attacks on me, my language competance, and my motivation I suggest that any admin might find a lot of us short of the mark. Lao Wai 16:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. If you have read Chinese history, you would find out that the villagers took up surnames which do not have meaning. Surnames do not have meaning, rather, they are used to identify one's family history and lineage. For example, if a villager lived near a forest, he may call himself "shu". Do you then, put his name as "tree"? This example works in English also, did you know too, that Margaret Thatcher was the descendant of a thatcher? Unless you can find the meaning of the surname when it was chosen by her ancestors in the first place, I think that the surname should not be explained. You only have to take a look at her name before you find out that it makes no sense if the surname is included. I hope that I am not insulting you in any form. --Terrancommander 16:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A bit of an old issue but personally, I see no reason to discuss the meaning someone's name unless there is a reason. Examples of reasons would be if the meaning of their name is often mentioned/discussed by the person in question or if for some reason the meaning often get discussed in the media. Nil Einne 22:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shorten the infobox?

Unless there is a strict format where all actors/actresses names are formatted so, I'm thinking that the screen, birth and alternate names in the infobox can be merged into just Name since they just repeat the same info. --A10203040 00:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, also as she is not from a Cantonese speaking region, her Cantonese name should be removed, just as her name in Japanese was removed. LDHan 06:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead with the shortening of the infobox and I've removed the cantonese pengyam from it as well. Feel free to modify it if you're unhappy with any of the changes. Regards. --A10203040 21:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Oversized photo plus information missing from infobox restored to normal size. --Terrancommander 17:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The asian naomi campbell?

Are there rumors about her being a very mean and business-oriented person? I've heard from someone that there are rumors of her doing anything it takes to get on top of the entertainment industry; and is also a very immoral person. I'm looking to see if these rumors exist at all; and if they are true, if they due exist. 165.196.139.24 17:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah... I think you can put rumours in, but you may want to put: "Critics say..." to show a critical viewpoint. It'd be great if you could find some evidence. ^^ --Terrancommander 17:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
My question is if there are rumors at all; and if the rumors are true or have any evidence towards them. I just heard this rumor from one person -- I was wondering; is it a common rumor; or was the guy who told me this simply speaking out of his own ass? Because it's the first time I've heard her being like Naomi Campbell. So is this rumor common, and what are the justifications for it? Thanks. 165.196.149.50 19:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that if it actually appears in a reliable secondary source(eg: news report), it can be added in. If it's just rumours floating around on the web or by word of mouth, don't. See Wikipedia:Verifiability.--A10203040 20:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Simple, why don't you just ask Ziyi herself? :) --Terrancommander 16:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. Here's my question, and I'm hoping someone knows; are there rumors like the ones I said above; or was the guy I spoke to simply making it up? Or, maybe a better question is; has anyone else heard of similar rumors? Because, if I hear a rumor about Naomi Campbell being abusive and very aggressive, I will only believe it if I hear it from MORE people. Which is the case; I've heard it from a lot of people. It makes it more reliable. At least, at that point, I know that the rumors exist. For now, I don't know if the rumors against Ziyi exist; I simply heard it from one guy.
Take for example, if I said that there is a religion called "scientology" and that it's really a cult. You would think that it is my opinion, and it's my opinion alone. But because there are so many people who also make this claim, it's not necessarilly more "reliable" or "true"; but you do know that the rumor exists at all.
I can't ask Ziyi if she has rumors against her; and if the rumors are true. Because I don't kow her, and I wouldn't want to offend her. But that's not the question; my question isn't whether or not the rumors are true -- you could only find that out from a lot of first hand experience. The real question is; are their rumors at all, and have anyone else heard of these rumors? That's why I'm asking people who go on these discussion forums; possible fans of Zhang-Ziyi, who would know better. Since you're a possible fan of Zhang-Ziyi; have you heard of these rumors, or know anyone who has? 165.196.149.8 19:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Remember, if you put anything like that (especially from tabloid magazines), it has to be referenced properly and cited correctly (seen from another angle). Personally, I think those rumors are just spread by Chinese media working against her because she is so famous in the west. "doing anything it takes to get on top of the entertainment industry; and is also a very immoral person..." That just sounds so naive and close-minded. She is a film star after all. --67.2.149.219 22:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I heard that the Chinese malign her for being to Western-orientated and concentrating on her career in Hollywood and Britain. Perhaps that's where these scurrilous rumours originate. JJ

"Are there rumors about her being a very mean and business-oriented person?"
As a certified "fanboy", so-to-speak, maybe I can best answer your question directly. Over the years, I've heard many rumors about Zhang Ziyi being "business-oriented" -- to a fault by some. But most all the original sources have been tabloids. And though I have heard it before, rumors rarely mention Zhang Ziyi being "mean" or "very mean". In fact, interviews with other people who have interacted with her go into how exceptionally nice and pleasent she is. I challenge anyone to provide a link to the contrary -- someone by name who's either just met or worked directly with her. Eitherway, it's important to note that just because a rumor, whether good or bad, is repeated in various sources doesn't necessarily make it any more credible or true than otherwise. Afterall, tabloids are in the business to make money, and often sensational stories (both true and false -- more often false) sell. Now, speaking directly to the title "The asian naomi campbell?", Naomi Campbell was arrested for assault. There is legal and easily varifiable evidence of what you simply call a 'rumor'. If Zhang Ziyi was charged and arrested for assault, you then might have reason to make a comparison with Naomi Campbell. As is, there is no varifiable evidence or even rumors that Zhang Ziyi is this "asian naomi campbell" that you've called her. That comparison just can't be made without documentation to support, and there is no documentation that would. It's yet another rumor that I've heard here for the first time. Southern Crane 15:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we all agree now there is no evidence of any of these claims and this entire section is both spiteful and irrelevant? Would anyone mind if I simply deleted it? Lao Wai 15:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

External links for Zhang Ziyi (and other Chinese celebrities) are more important than they are for most Western celebrities. The vast majority of information about her comes from the Chinese press. "Fansites" like those that are being removed play a valuble role in translating news reports and collecting interviews and media from the Chinese press.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL explicitly states that "Stable and verifiable sites with other meritable, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article; such as... interviews." are "What should be linked to". Moreover they cover the actress at "a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article" and hence should be linked to.

Please do not delete these sites ... - Arsian120 13:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: site links removed by Nlu pending discussion.
How are they compliant with WP:EL and WP:SPAM? --Nlu (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, WP:EL "Stable and verifiable sites with other meritable, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article; such as... interviews." are "What should be linked to". Moreover they cover the actress at "a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article" and hence should be linked to, rather than worked into the article.
Please explain which provision of WP:EL they both violate? WP:SPAM only covers external links added by bots.
By removing any mention of sites from the talk page, you violated WP:TPG "Don't edit others' comments". You have made it difficult for others to understand the sense of my comments by removing the subject they discussed. For others who wish to follow this conversation, please visit the article history to see which sites are being discussed. - Arsian120 17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
They violate the provision of WP:EL that commercial sites should not be linked to. Granted, the primary activities of the sites are not commercial, but they derive revenue from advertising on the sites, and therefore are commercial (under the prohibition against sites that have "objectable amounts of advertising," which I certainly think these sites do). Further, they also qualify as "blogs, social networking sites, or forums." WP:EL suggests that linking to one fan site may be appropriate, not that it is always appropriate, and even then it only provides for one link.
WP:EL says "Except where noted, the below do not override the list of what should be linked to" which means a link shouldn't be removed if it qualifies under one a the criteria of "what should be linked to".
Both sites qualify under "What should be linked to" provision "Stable and verifiable sites with other meritable, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article; such as... interviews." and "a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article" and hence should be linked to, rather than worked into the article.
Neither site has more advertising than the IMDb link you (and the wikipedia community by consensus) find acceptable. - Arsian120 20:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Upon further thought, I think an WP:RfC will be appropriate. I'll file one, and then we'll see what the community thinks. --Nlu (talk) 05:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think a strong and credible argument has been made for the inclusion of the two external links in question:
  • Both play a valuable role in transmuting the latest and detailed Chinese information about Zhang Ziyi into English -- information that goes well beyond the capability and scope of this one Wikipedia article alone.
  • Inclusion of the two external links falls well within the requirements set forth in WP:EL.
  • WP:SPAM clearly doesn't apply to either external link. Therefore, neither can be arbitrarily considered "spam" by an editor.
  • As for WP:EL, though I wouldn't describe either site as "commercial", neither has nearly the "objectionable amounts of advertising" that IMDb has. Accordingly, IMDb is far more of a "commercial" site than either of the external links in question, yet is acceptable.
No disrespect, but all considered, imo the argument for including IMDb yet neither of the two previously linked external resources is a rather weak one. The two links, along with IMDb, provide a valuable resource to users of Wikipedia, in accordance with its rules and regulations. I've not seen anything that states neither should be included. — Southern Crane 12:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC

These are the sites that I removed, believing them to be spam:

  • Zhang Ziyi CSC International Zhang Ziyi fansite, news, extensive filmography and picture gallery, active discussion forum
  • HelloZiyi.us - Zhang Ziyi Pictures, videos, filmography, articles, forums.

An anonymous editor took offense and called the deletion vandalism, and repeatedly tried to insert them. I, believing that to be trolling, protected the article, leading to the discussion above.

I think the arguments on both sides have been made. Comments would be appreciated. --Nlu (talk) 05:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

What are the precedents for fansites of other celebrities? I suggest following whatever standard applies elsewhere. Durova 00:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, precedents do vary. For example, Angelina Jolie has 10 external links, Leonardo Dicaprio has 10 and Julia Roberts has 3. Each having 1 fan site. But even if we were to follow precedent, then this article too would include 10 external links. But does that best serve its users? I'd say just follow Wikipedia's rules, as noted above, which do allow for the inclusion of the two previously linked sites. — Southern Crane 22:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
On articles where I edit frequently I take this on a case-by-case basis and evaluate the content at the site: what does it offer that is unique and important? Durova 23:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In that case, what I wrote above on September 9th applies: "Both play a valuable role in transmuting the latest and detailed Chinese information about Zhang Ziyi into English -- information that goes well beyond the capability and scope of this one Wikipedia article alone."
For some time, the two sites were linked along with IMDb with no problems. Only recently, was there a "vandalism" issue. Until then, user of this Wikipedia article had access to two different yet very informative resources that go well beyond the article and IMDb alone. It would seem to me that's the whole point of providing external links. — Southern Crane 11:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
By that standard, nearly any external link will be appropriate, since it will provide some information that go "beyond the article." That will violate the spirit of WP:EL and WP:SPAM and make Wikipedia a link farm. These sites and the information they contain are well-locatable by search engines. For them to belong, there has to be essential information that makes the article incomplete without them, and I don't see any. --Nlu (talk) 11:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, the text of WP:EL says "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" are "What should be linked to. It does not make any mention on "essential", nor should it since "essential" is not an objective term and is not capable of NPOV treatment.
Concrete examples of meaningful, relevant content. Translations: 1 2 3 - News archives 1 2
In particliar, both sites exceed IMDb in terms of overall information offered about the actress. Since the wikipedia community by consensus finds IMDb acceptable, it can serve as a guideline for which external links to accept and which to reject. - Arsian120 14:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In response to the linkfarm criticism, I edit at the FA Joan of Arc where we retain a handful of links that have research value. Recently we added a Danish site because it contained a complete English translation of one of her trials - something that hadn't been available online elsewhere. Most fansites don't rise to that value, but a few do. Durova 15:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So, this has been discussed extensively. I get the impression that most editors here who have taken part see no specific conflict between the inclusion of the two external resources in question and Wikipedia rules and policies concerning their inclusion. So what now? What constitutes a successful conclusion of this discussion and remedy either way? — Southern Crane 22:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a matter I'd leave to the editors who know the material best: discuss what each site provides in terms of unique value and reach a consensus. I don't think the difference between 10 and 12 links would make this page into a linkfarm, but at the same time it wouldn't be fair to include a fansite just because (for example) she might look particularly hot in its images. Durova 00:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
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