Talk:Zar'it-Shtula incident

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[edit] Merge

The incident section in Ayta ash-Shab is redundant, as it was already included in this article. Fuzzy 22:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Rather not. The Ayta ash-Shab is actually a location stub and information about the location should be added. The other article describes in first row the event which started the conflict. --213.155.224.232 16:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly (probably an unsatisfactory assumption), we have no disagreements about whether Ayta ash-Shab is a stub and should remain till more information about the location is added (you can start by including the transcripts). I was referring to the incident section that includes partial information, which was later extended in Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab incident. Now, there are two alternatives – duplicating all the info to the Ayta ash-Shab stub, or removing that section in Ayta ash-Shab while leaving a link to the article.
According to the wikipedia standards, the second alternative is usually preferred. Fuzzy 20:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I would agree to keep the location section as a stub and to move/remove all about the incident into the "incident" article and refer to it like that: "Near the town the incident took place, which started the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict." Sorry for not being clear.--213.155.224.232 13:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


Where did the information about injuring 5 civilians come from? The link [1] in "injuring 5 civilians[1]" does not work. It seems that other articles cited in the text do not mention it. R.R.S. 7 August, 2006

Wierd... when I search for the missing Haaretz reference I found that reterence. It appears Haaretz has a few ways to link an article. I'll replace the link.

[edit] Jumblatt's statement

from the figaro article

  • [Jumblatt] In view of the Israeli military offensive against the Palestinians in Gaza and the issue of the Lebanese prisoners in Israel, Hezbollah's logic could justify these kidnappings. The Arabs are exasperated by the intensity of the Israeli repression in Gaza. Their initial response is to support Hezbollah. But Hezbollah is playing a very dangerous game by kidnapping these two soldiers. We are no longer where we were 10 years ago. Israel has evacuated Lebanon. These kidnappings extend beyond our country's borders. Hezbollah is raising the stakes, supported by Iran and Syria, which has during the past year become a satellite state of Teheran. Because of the lack of Arab or Western initiative in connection with the Israeli-Palestinian question, Iran and Syria have taken over, and within this context Lebanon is a natural battlefield.

what is meant by "these kidnappings extend beyond our country's borders" is that they are influenced by Syria, Teheran, and events in Gaza. He is not offering an opinion whether it is a "cross-border" raid. Will314159 13:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahhm, I'm not sure about that. Nevertheless, this quote is more suitable to the Lebanese responds to the Hezbollah attack. Somebody has time to write this section? Here's a start. Fuzzy 17:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A MEMRI interpretation? Get Real. Best Wishes. Will314159 10:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You ask about "prisoners." I have tried investigating this issue online. So far, it appears that Israel has 3 or 4 Lebanese in custody. The Lebanese call them "detainees" and are particularly interested in getting one of them back. They describe him as being unfairly detained by Israel. But, if you look him up, he was arrested inside Israel, tried and convicted. He is in jail because he took a father and child down to the beach at gunpoint, shot dead the father, beat the child to death and killed two police officers before he was arrested.


There are actually many, many people in Israel's jails awaiting trial. Some of them are Lebanese. If I have more time later I'll come back with a source. --Jonmedeiros 23:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab incident

This page should be also protected. Flayer 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Why the you need Guards for propoganda.Yousaf465

Incident is disputed about the crossing of border by any side so pl check.Yousaf465

Funny... Dozens of international journalists were near those burt jeeps inside Israel. I would not "check" anything, if you have reliable references about your claim, so add them as well! And yes, I need gourds to protect this article from YOUR propoganda. Flayer 13:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

have you ever visited jewish virtual libaray then you may know how to convince Dozens of international "journalists" abut you point of view.HAHAHAHa funny guards o.k i will sent mine Two guards if you can't rely on yours.HAhAHAAYousaf465

This article also claims to true in that a serving officer in PAF runs a website which prove IAF claims what a pity thing that PAF is they let a oficier do propoganda against his own country then how can you trust these sources.[1] i don't understand how then they run this PAF

nonsense... Flayer 14:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If Yousaf465, or his friend's IP, shall violate the WP:3RR rule once again, I'll press an official complaint (As it seems he doesn't understand clues). Fuzzy 22:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly a pov element in the text and editing. Personally i found that every historically interesting or relevant case bears these pov elements in wikipedia.

To give a simple example, what turns these forces of hezbollah into irregulars?? (so pov descriptions and depictions of hezbollah infiltrate already the first chapter.) Without going into more detail (although the landmine inssue can be concerned likewise, and the prisoner- ase for killing at he beeach, is obscuring and very possibly obscurant, what does it have to do here anyway??)

Back to irregulars, The idf ofcourse describes hezbollah as irregulars.. who else would do that?? In fact these were among the most organised , best guided units of hezbollah, very probably with a full time job or function in lebanon. So irregulars is a derogatory here. Ofcourse you can make the point that for israelians hezbollah is illegal. Well that is POV. Becus is it illegal for lebanese? no. so here s your answer .. good luck 'neatening up' this relevant contribution. 80.57.242.54 14:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hezbollah border-line fighters mastered Hebrew

Haaretz.com Any logical place to put this information ? imi2 08:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Claims not backed by source

The source, Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border, does not say the incident started at 9:05. It says about 9:00. It also doesn't mention the villages of Even Menahem and Mattat. It doesn't mention any "Humvees" either. It says "The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked."

Hmmm... Well, there are plenty of sources that mention and even got photos of those humvees ([2]), that's for sure. There are also plenty of sources that mention "about 9:00". Even Menachem and Mattat not mentioned, but it says "Simultaneously with this ambush, Hezbollah also launched a diversionary attack: a barrage of mortar shells and Katyusha rockets on communities and IDF outposts in the western part of the border area." As far as I remember that date, nobody was telling about specifically Even Menachem and Mattat, but the whole area (Rosh HaNikra, Shlomi, Shtula, Zar'it, Nurit....). so I have no idea why only Even Menachem and Mattat were mentioned here. Flayer 21:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Found it! [3]
It seems it was the attack on the humvees that started 9:05, not the diversionary rocket attack: [4]: "Hezbollah said it carried out the attack about 9:05 a.m., when its fighters managed to cross the heavily fortified border near Shtula, an Israeli farming town of about 350 people. Hezbollah guerrillas fired on two Israeli army Humvees, killing three soldiers and capturing two others." I don't think the Washinton Post article mentions the rocket attack July 12 (just a rocket attack on July 13). 83.252.255.145 15:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Lebanese police story

From the start, there have been some editors who question the accepted story that the incident happened on the Israeli side of the border, stating instead that it happened on the Lebanese side. However, the only source for this claim is a DPA news flash, written by a DPA correspondent in Lebanon a few hours after it happened. The content of the piece makes it obvious that it was despatched very early, as the Israeli's didn't yet want to confirm the capture, and as there is no mentioning of any dead Israelis - so this piece may very well have been the first story about the incident.

Nobody outside of DPA knows who the correspondent was, but, considering the size of DPA, it's doubtful that they keep employed staff in Lebanon, so it was probably a stringer with good local contacts; and he/she can either have been misinformed by someone or have misunderstood something. Stringers are paid per story, so they are always in a hurry to get a good story quickly to their client, especially if they think they have a scoop - and mistakes easily happen in a rushed situation.

What is clear, is that no other news agencies, newspapers or TV/radio channels seem to have ever mentioned any police statement or any claim by Hezbollah that it should have happened on the Israeli side (except those who published the DPA story). And when Nasrallah announced the capture on 13 July he also didn't say that it happened in Lebanon - and he definitely would have if that had been the case. Also, the Lebanese government has never questioned that it happened on the Israeli side, even though the DPA story claims that the government's own police force has said so. So, I think we can let that issue rest and assume that it was a mistake by a rushed stringer - unless, of course, someone can find any reliable references which aren't just a re-write of the DPA story . Thomas Blomberg 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe Yousaf465 can enlighten us. Fuzzy 21:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I cannot remember where I read it. But apparently the Hezbollah website initially claimed that the capture took place on the Lebanon side of the border. Then after UNIFIL stated the opposite, the website changed to the UN version. The incident is described in the UNIFIL report here. CiaPolitica 23:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Results

To anyone who can edit the main article page, i think its fair to state in the Box that the result was a ( Hezbollah success), they have managed to capture israeli soldiers which was the main purpose behind the raid, they killed 3 israeli soldiers in the process, & they killed another 5 soldiers & destroyed an israeli tank while retreating with their prisoners, if that is not a success i don't know what is.

That's a fair point. I've noted it as a Hezbollah tactical victory. -- ChrisO 10:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You fail to note that Israel won officially. Not only that, but Israel killed more Hezbollah troops. IronCrow 03:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Won officially? How's that? So might suggest they won 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict but that's kind of irrelevant. Also, according to this page there are reported casulties on the Hezbollah side. In any case, number of deaths does not determine victory. The Soviet Union lost a lot of troops in the Eastern Front, far more then the Axis, during WW2 but no one is going to say they lost. Errors were made but arguably the primary reason for such a great number of deaths was because Stalin simply didn't care provided he won Nil Einne 23:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I took the liberty to sort up this talk page a bit.

The article re/naming issue should be resolved. After the previous mix-up –

Due to the mix-up done by Yousaf465 and Flayer, I've placed a WP:SPLICE request. Please make changes only to this version, and don't update the Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab incident artible until this mix-up is resolved. Thanks, Fuzzy 21:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, main article is back in old name. Talk page will follow in a few days. Cheers, Fuzzy 06:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

– the page was {{moveprotected}} by Bobet:

This page has already been moved 8 times with very little discussion. If you feel the page needs to be moved, please take it to WP:RM, since it obviously isn't uncontroversial. Thanks. - Bobet 23:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, there are at least two purposed alternative names:

Is there any opposition to renaming this Zar'it incident or Zar'it attack? Keeping the Ayta a-Shaab part is just confusing, and could inspire more of the conspiracy theories. Let me know... TewfikTalk 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab should be put as the most NPOV name.--TheFEARgod 12:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't really care about the article name. Still, I purpose to place a vote on the main article talk page rather than here.
Meanwhile, let the young men now arise, and play before us. Fuzzy 21:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Landmine

Do we know something about the landmine the tank ran onto? Was it a Hezbollah trap, or did the tank run into an old Israeli mine left from previous occupations? Is the Israeli landmines powerful enough to damage a Merkava II?? CiaPolitica 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Diferent b/ related point. A board of inquiry has found that a bulldozer should have preceded the tank to turn over mines with its blades. Cheers. Will314159 23:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I think recently added Washington post article source makes fairly clear the divistion commander was well aware Lebanon had defenses on their side of the border along the path he sent the tank down, though border defences were probably maintained by the Hezbollah militia. The tank hit the mine after it veered off the path. -- Kendrick7 23:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't a source but some newsitems (presumably al jazeera's but i am not sure), mentioned a 400 or 500 kg ied.80.57.242.54 13:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Katyusha?

Is there a source beyond the Israeli paper that claims Hezbollah used this particular type of rocket? This would have been a violation of the Israeli-Lebanese Ceasefire Understanding, and therefore Israel's justification for war; thus is should be better sourced. I'm asking the same question on the main article. -- Kendrick7 02:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] capture vs kidnap

Kendrik7 seems to be having a edit war with a bunch of us over whether it is considered "kidnapping" or "capturing". I think it would only be capturing if they were in Lebanon. The fact is, the terrorists crossed the border into the State of Israel and abducted Israeli soldiers. These weren't Prisoners of War, these were people kidnapped on their own soil. Valley2city 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I had originally changed "kidnap" to "capture" as well; the second term seemed both more neutral and more technically correct in a military context. However, further research showed that every individual involved, including the man who ordered the action, refers to it as kidnapping. Given that fact, I reverted all reference of "capture" to either "kidnap" or "abduct". I was going to bring it up here anyway, butValley2city has beat me to it. Let's talk this out rather than revert any more, shall we? --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 22:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
They weren't off duty, or civilians, or children. They were soldiers captured in an ambush, which was itself was an act of war. Of course, Hezbollah would probably prefer the word "kidnap" to portray the IDF as weak, and others perhaps prefer the word "kidnap" to over-portray these soldiers as victims, or to ignore that Israel lost the first battle of the larger conflict, or maybe all these parties are simply ignorant of the correct term. Many sources use the word "capture" and I don't any reason to deviate from correct military terminology in this case. -- Kendrick7talk 22:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
While many of your points are technically correct, I think there is an issue of self-identification/self-reference. If all parties involved refer to it as "kidnapping", then that is how we should report it. Anything else would seem to be verging on OR. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 22:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
if you are refering to Nasrallah's backpedaling as your primary source for justifying the word kidnapping, realize that he is try to portray the ambush as not at all an "act of war" but merely a minor kidnapping of some people who just happened to be soldiers, and Israel's response as completely disproportionate. Note that the journalist's intro calls uses the neutral word "capture" instead. -- Kendrick7talk 22:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand your position, but I will stand by my first two statements. It seems that we've clearly described the issue, our respective postions, and what we feel to be the merits of each case. What would really help now would be some participation from other editors. If no one else responds here in a reasonable time, perhaps we should post a link at the Pump (assitance) requesting further comments. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 22:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There was a ridiculously long edit war in the parent article over this, considering it is one word. Of course, when you say "every individual involved" you are leaving out the Israeli soldiers themselves. God willing, they will soon have the freedom to describe the event in their own words. How they would judge the portrayal of the event by politicians on both sides would certaintly be informative. -- Kendrick7talk 23:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, and I'm sure we all hope/wish/pray for their swift, safe release. Regarding a post to invite comment, do you think this would be appropriate:
"There is a discussion here regarding an issue of terminology related to a current event. We are soliciting outside comments from interested editors and invite you to review the issue."
Is that neutral? Does it convey enough info, too much, or not enough? Let me know what you think. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 00:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
That sounds fair and a correct assessment of the situation. I agree that both "capture" and "kidnap" are both valid terms to describe what happened to the soldiers, and perhaps kidnap does increase the "shock value" but it has been used more often than not by both sides, perhaps, again, for propaganda uses of both sides. Is there an existing template or perhaps one that should be created for this? I think this situation is duplicated in many other articles in wikipedia and it would be great for many of these situations. Valley2city 02:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the pump didn't do much, maybe a WP:RfC would be in order? -- Kendrick7talk 02:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting Valley2city. As for seeking further comments, should we try a WP:3 request first? RfC seems a bit drastic, almost like there's a stigma attached to it. Of course, while we discuss this so politely, the slow revert war between Anon IPs seems to continue, So I guess I'm open to anything. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 03:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I honestly think there are very few people in the world without an opinion on this issue so bias is going to be pretty automatic. It's going to basically go to a partisan vote no matter what we do. Meanwhile I think an semi-protect is in order to at least keep the Anon IPs at bay and let it remain between us seasoned contributors. At least we can be reasonable. Any agreement as a semi-protect as a first step? I'll pursue this if there is consent. Valley2city 06:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not really vandalism though. I find the back and forth drivebys kinda interesting. It's like watching tennis. -- Kendrick7talk 06:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I could see that. We should make teams. Valley2city 06:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's that and the flypaper effect; you never know if some of those editors will stick around. Besides my team's winning! Go team! -- Kendrick7talk 06:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, maybe you're winning, I haven't been paying attention to the numbers. Still, it is an edit war mainly propogated by anons. Now it's just a word, maybe soon it will escalate to something bigger. Valley2city 07:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL, I wouldn't object to Sprotection, in fact I almost suggested it. It might not be granted because this is a very slow-motion revert war. Lacking further input on our question, perhaps a compromise would be possible? What if we use "captured" in reference to the military action, but use "kidnapped" when refering to the aftermath? --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 15:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: Sprotection was requested for this page, but declined. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 17:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Main article 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict

This has been discussed at enormous length at 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict as well. Most reputable sources use the term kidnap. Also, all wiki articles on these events should be consistent, which is why I changed it back to "kidnap", per 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. -- Avi 07:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

People keep saying that, but it seems to me most WP:RS's we have here use "capture." Haaretz, CNN, and UPI use kidnap, Washington Post, Yahoo News India, Al-Jazeera, CBS, and the BBC use capture. (n.b. I just fixed Yahoo News India's title). I know that's not scientific, but I don't know where people are getting their numbers. -- Kendrick7talk 07:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Though I have removed myself from it, the edit-warring continues... Valley2city 07:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been watching it, but I'm not willing to get involved in the reverts. Given how much time has passed, an RFC might be in order. Is anyone interested in writing one up? --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 07:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
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