Talk:Zakir Naik

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zakir Naik article.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on November 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2006/11/28. The result of the discussion was keep.
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Archive 1
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Contents

[edit] Revert Wars

Please watch his videos, and "write down" the quotations, and find their meaning. You'll concur with his interpretations.

Okay, lets talk this out one by one. The first thing we need to discuss is the "support of Osama" issue. Please, do not revert blindly. I believe we can reach a consensus.

I think we should keep his views on "Support for OBL" because it's clearly Naik talking and its self explanatory what he said. What do the rest of you think? Outsider2810 02:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources cleanup

OK everyone... I've been attempting to clean this article up by rewriting/rephrasing things, but there are too many issues to ignore which is why I've tagged this article. The main issue concerns the verifiability of the sources used; whether they are in support, in opposition, or even simply the statement of Zakir Naik's views. I've already tried to address this issues above in Talk:Zakir_Naik#Please_refrain_from_using_forum_posts_as_sources.21. I did come across more problems, mainly that non-English sources are used (e.g. here... while there's nothing technically wrong with that in relation to WP:RS at first glance, I've seen/read the same points being addressed in English sources (videos and online articles). Therefore we should try to use those sources that are in English. So I hope we can all work to make this articles at least presentable, because in all honesty the current state of it is a disgrace. --khello 05:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"The interviewer of Zakir Naik during his "propagation of Other faiths" segment added his own views after the segment. He questioned if Zakir Naik was being any different from the Taliban.[1]"
I'm not so sure this is a valid statement based on the link. The video's edited, and the end segment is a voice over that, to me anyway, doesn't sound like the actual interviewer's voice. What do others think? to me an edited video like this, as opposed to other videos linked to in this article, cannot be deemed verifiable in terms of [WP:RS]. I just want to get others' thoughts on this before i remove it- that whole first paragraph doesn't strike me as verifiable. It is important to have a criticism section, but one that is encyclopedic. --khello 07:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Khello, don't act like you are being NPOV. That criticism is valid. For sure, its the same person who did the interviewing. Its obvious you are a Naik fan and you want to hide the fact that he made himself look like a complete fool.
First of all it is irrelevant whether I am a fan of Naik, and would appreciate it if you don't call me as such. But the fact remains that above mentioned statement cannot be verified based on the source provided. and plus there is nothing to 'hide' regarding him looking like a fool- I think simply stating what he says is proof enough! I only came by this article by chance- I saw a video of his on the net and came here to see what he's about, but was appalled by how poorly referenced and written this article was. And that's why I'm here now: trying to make this article better than it is now.
The end of the above mentioned video [2] is edited as far as I can tell, and the way the source is presented below is fine because it doesn't refer to the end of the video, but what Naik actually said.
As for your alleged "pls do not edit propagation of other faiths section. its valid. other changes i'm willing to seee" revert here, I fail to see how you are trying to NOPVify this article. You blindly reverted to a poorly written, unverifiabley (is that even a word :p) sourced version. There is every reason to have a criticism section, but one that cites verifiable sources, as per WP:RS, and definitely not citing forum posts as they are here and here
and please sign your posts. --khello 06:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Do people think this is a verifiable link? it looks like somewhat of a personal website to me, so I don't think it should go under the external links section of the article. what do you think? --khello 07:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propagation of Other faiths in Islamic state

- Zakir Naik says that propagation of other religions within an Islamic state is forbidden. While he appreciates people of other religions allowing Muslims to freely propagate Islam in their country, he feels there should not be any church or temple in an Islamic state. He makes an analogy to math and claims, "2+2 is only equal to 4, not 3 or 6. Similarly, truth is one and it is only Islam. Will non-Muslims allow 2+2 = 6 to be taught in their schools?"[3]

It has full sources. Outsider2810 04:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed

I've removed most of the part from this article, it does NOT look like an encyclopedia artice, rather a flamed persons view on something he/she does NOT agree on.

No correct references No manners of writing 2/3 line paragraphs Not keeping a neutral point of view.

I will from now on keep an eye on this, no more wrong doings are going on here now! 61.5.151.220 20:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Is that you, Akeeq? If there are no references and no "manners of writing" or 2/3 line paragraphs, or out of context quotes, thats not reason enough to delete huge portions of the page without consensus. Its not NPOV? Edit the articles and make them NPOV and give both sides of the arguments. You cant go around deleting huge stuff from a page. This is about Zakir's arguements. They'll stay here. You can try to make the page NPOV, make sure things are being said in context and provide references.--Matt57 01:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
What specific parts are you talking about? You've deleted virtually the whole article. It's not perfect that's true- but I don't see how deleting the whole thing solves anything. I also can't see how simply listing/quoting a person's view can be considered POV. If you feel that there are POV issues, please feel free to NPOVify- deleting everything won't solve anything. I myself expressed concerns about some of the stuff here (namely the criticism section and the sources used or lacking) but we have to be constructive about it. Discuss it here so everyone can be happy! --khello 02:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah that IP was me, I didn't knew that I was not logged in at that time :p. Anyway, well yeah I think your right how I did that was prolly not the right way, but I have major issues with quoting almost everything out of context, especially the part; Zakir Naik says that propagation of other religions within an Islamic state is forbidden. While he appreciates people of other religions allowing Muslims to freely propagate Islam in their country, he feels there should not be any church or temple in an Islamic state. He makes an analogy to math and claims, "2+2 is only equal to 4, not 3 or 6. Similarly, truth is one and it is only Islam. Will non-Muslims allow 2+2 = 6 to be taught in their schools?"
Incorrect, this is just a biased opinion, I have seen the video of him explaining it myself, and the part of "having no church or temple in an islamic state" was never said by Naik. This is propaganda!
Moreever, the Interest part is again out of context.
My point is a biography page should not just go and try to prove someone wrong with out of context incorrect references. And secondly why does this biography goes on with 3 or 4 line paragraphs; it doesn't prove anything. If you see any GA status biographies you wont really find them the way this one has come out. His views "as a whole" should be given out as to what he tries to do/explain. What his agenda is, what his occupation and lifestyle is.
So yes, I later on read the consensus part - my fault. But I would vote for its removal. The major part is a biased story and looks more like a 5th grade essay on someone, not an article about a scholor of religion out of an encyclopedia.Akeeq 03:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree that this is a very poorly written article. Since this article isn't going to disappear, I think a more constructive way would be to edit the bits you see as out of context so that they are in context. As for the specific concern above, I watched the video again and in it the subtitles read
"As far as the second question regarding building of Churches or Temples is concerned. how can we allow this when their religion is wrong? And when their worshiping is also wrong?"
I don't speak Urdu, and hence am not sure whether these subtitles are accurate or the video unedited. Again, I've already expressed this concern in earlier discussions, but if the subtitles are accurate that seems pretty concrete to me. I tried to rewrite some bits of the article earlier but the biggest problem is finding reliable and verifiable sources; especially since all information about Dr. Naik is internet based. The first part of the criticism section, for example, doesn't cite any sources; never mind reliable sources! I've added the [citation needed] tags to give a chance to the editor who inserted that claim to back it up, but so far nothing yet. So my advice is just do the best you can edit it, and if your edits are fair and accurate, then there would be no complaints! --khello 04:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Akeeq, if you think the video has been wrongly sub-titled, you should get the consensus of other editors who understand Urdu and then maybe a decision could be made to remove the video links, although this should be the last step and should only be done if there are other videos of those talks with clean titles. The person who made these videos should make the titles as accurate as possible (if the video editors are reading this, please take note: make new videos that are accurate for the titles). For the rest, I agree, you'll just have to work on making the article NPOV and not delete any stuff. This article requires work as Khello also pointed out and I hope you work on it and continue to improve it.--Matt57 05:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I agree. I'll go through those videos, the problem is I watch Dr. Naiks program on television everyday, I've myself seen most of his shows and/debates with scholars - and I've not yet come across anything like this, I'll try to improve the article to the best of my knowledge. Akeeq 05:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


I was right, I have gone through the video, the guy has taken a single line out of the whole video ignoring its context. Here is what he said; We will not allow making churches and idol worship, but that too is ONLY prohibited in Saudi Arabia. The editor, missed the part in red in the article which is from the same reference, so that it gives a negative view. The prohibitation of making churches in Saudi Arabia is a government law by its constitution, it has NOTHING to do with Islam.
Secondly he said; making the analogy with maths that will muslims allow 2+2=6 to be taught in their schools out of context, if you even read the sub-titles you will find out how the guy took it from inbetween and left out its orignial context. Akeeq 05:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok well, since I dont know the language, I cant verify anything that you did. I would request other editors to please verify the work of Akeeq. Aqeek, also, if something is being taken out of context, you should explain the context, not delete content. You deleted content right now and if you did because it was out of context, thats wrong. You should explain the context instead in more detail. If you deleted anything that he never actually said (out of context or not), then thats OK.

Will other editors please verify the Aqeek's edit here? Thanks --Matt57 14:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I deleted only a line which said that "he feels no churches or temples should be made in any islamic state" wrong, he never said that. Akeeq 16:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like a more reasonable edit than your first where you were deleting all the content. Other editors should confirm this and try to make the content NPOV. --Matt57 20:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Akeeq, I know Urdu and I can confirm that he did say no churches or temple must be built in a Muslim land. You even admitted it yourself in your own quote: Here is what he said; We will not allow making churches and idol worship," It does not matter what country allows it or does not. What matters is that Naik feels no temple or church should be constructed. In fact, Naik used the sentence, "But this is only followed in Saudi Arabia" to portray how only that country follows the ideal. You are the one trying to misrepresent here. Outsider2810 23:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ali Sina challenge

I saw that Nayyer44 wasn't happy here- and I've read through that and I'd have to say I see where s/he's coming from. It seems like it is original research in a sense, because the sources (the hadiths) aren't explicilty related to Ali Sina and Zakir Naik. I think simply stating that Ali Sina "fears for his life" is enough, since he does mention that on his website (I remember reading that somewhere). Consensus? --khello 18:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It was me who put in that hadith reference. I dont know why it doesnt qualify for a reference, but I thought somehow it should be mentioned why he fears to be killed by a reference of some kind. You're welcome to change that if you like. This is the same reference that I used on Ali Sina's own page as well.--Matt57 03:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Quoting from WP:NOR:

"An edit counts as original research if... [i]t introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments... without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source" (emphasis added)

While the hadiths may be used as a pretext against Ali Sina, there isn't a source provided that explicitly connects the threat to Ali Sina to those hadiths. That's how I see it violates WP:NOR, so I've gone ahead and replaced it with a reference where Ali Sina himself (in an email published on his site) cites the "threat to his life". Glad we can sort it out amicably :) --khello 05:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree thats a better reference.--Matt57 10:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

HI guys i have just added some info to the page and its just informative and harmless hope u all will agree thanks --mak82hyd

Unfortunatly Mak82hyd, mostly all your edits are directly copy/pasted from various websites (which violates various copyrights), including [4][5][6]. Additionally, regarding your edit here, Grand Ayatollah Montazeri is most definitely an authority on Islam (authority in this instance does not mean he is more muslim than others- it just implies that he is a figure of importance within Islam- to Shi'a muslims especially), and mentioning that in the sentence, in my opinion, gives the reader more context.
On a more general note, you should consult the WP:MOSBIO, which gives a guide on how a biogpraphy article such as this should look like. Some of the information you are adding would definitely improve the article (for example the list of debates, list of publications), but it should be placed under the correct heading (at the end of the article). Also, the "Bio Data" section is redundant, given that all that information is already mentioned in the info box.
Finally, this edit here (I know it's not your account, I'm just pointing it out :))is purely original research and does not belong on wikipedia, unless of course it can be backed up by verifiable secondary sources.
So for the time being, I am going to revert your changes to comply with the various Wikipedia guidlines and policies I mentioned above. Please don't be discouraged and keep contributing once you've familiarized yourself with all of the above policies! Also sign your posts by typing ~~~~ after your post. Happy editing! --khello 08:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks khello its been nice to get some help from senior wikipedians like you. i appreciate ur help ill try to read as many wikipedia guidelines and policies and tries to follow it. i believe truth should be heard and discussed rather than being one sided. ill put every reference as i have done good research. i havce given some for matt in my talk page plz have a look. and also feel free to modify my changes if you think it is less referenced or please ask me to reference if i dont do it rather than deleting it. and english is not my mother tongue so if i make grammer or any mistake plz feel free to modify it. for example Bio data and other things. and khello u were right i was the person who included naiks and ravi shankar video and when he said it has got mistakes and written in hurry, when i didnot had my id. i have added references with time on that. and regarding Grand Ayatollah Montazeri this is the first time i heard his name so i dont think he is a famous authority of islam but if u think he is in shia sect then we should add that info rather than calling him authority of islam as it will be wrong and u know shia and sunni percentage of world. thanksMak82hyd 16:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Mak82hyd 18:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Mak, what kind of juvenile editing are doing on the page? You left a signature on top of the page. Look at what you're doing to this page. Secondly, do NOT edit 100 times. Use the Preview button. This makes it harder to see what kind of edits you are doing.
Khello, this Mak is a real problem. I feel like reverting all his edits. I'll leave them here for now. Its too much work for now filtering the junk from the non-junk.--Matt57 19:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

thanks matt for the comments ...lol i am learning still and dont worry i wont do any damage to the article. present one looks good. i hope u agree. please have a look and let me know what u think is problem and let me know if u need references for anything more and if u want me to change wordings. as u told me to sign the article when i change it i did. should i just sign user talk and discussions and not articles??? i think so and i will follow. cheers Mak82hyd 20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

matt and khello in the article of zakir naik it says " During the event, Naik said, "religious tolerance is important in Islam but tolerance does not mean acceptance." He claimed that people of other religions were misguided and said, "Muslims would have a problem with the Hindu imagery of the god Vishnu." Naik also claimed that the Vedas prophesize the coming of the prophet Muhammad, for which Ravishankar replied, "muslims should now respect the Vedas and not call it scriptures of the unbelievers." "

may i know why time reference in video is not given coz matt told me i should give time reference as well but i am amazed that it was not given for this one Mak82hyd 20:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The only place where you need to sign is the talk pages when you're writing comments like right now. I agree, if there's a comment about a video, it should talk about the timeline where the comment was said. Feel free to add the timeline. I dont know who added that material in the past. Also note though, these are actual quotes from the video, not conclusions or summaries. If you have a video you should quote the exact material as well. Right now I'll restrict myself to checking the article on Ali Sina. Thats enough work for me.--Matt57 22:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This does not require citation

Naik points to the verse 4:3 from the Qur'an[16] to explain the Muslim position on polygyny. This verse explains that a man can take more than one wife only if he is able to treat them equally. If he cannot do this, he should have a relationship with only one wife and/or "what your right hands possess" (i.e. female slaves and concubines).

Its pretty self explanatory if you read the Quran and if you read the internally sourced article on what the right hands possess. We don't need to cite every sentence if its logical and we can draw a conclusion ourselves. Are you saying we cannot draw own conclusions????

Why arent you signing your name? Use this button Image:button_sig.png --Matt57 23:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Quran 4:3 According to Yusuf Ali translation: YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

it clearly describes that only one if u cant do justice or a captive i want to ask a question whats wrong in marrying a captive or slave or concubine, remember it says marry which is better than rape i hope u understand Mak82hyd 05:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicated references

This article has multiple references to the same Web pages and YouTube videos, so it looks like there are twice as many citataions as there actually are ... I'm going to try to add <ref name="whatever">{{cite web}}</ref> in place of these external links and bring the citations into correct style and avoid the confusion of clicking the same video multiple times. —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks good :) Martinp23 18:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've spent nearly three hours on this so far ... I'll come back to work on it some more later, but in the mean time, maybe someone else will follow my lead (see {{cite web}} for details and the edit history for examples) ... frankly, I think this article gives "conflict of interest" a Bad Name, and I'm trying very hard not to read it for content or point of view ... just culling the external links from the body of the text, and some other editor can decide if they're bogus and should be either replaced or removed ... and please remember to leave either a {{fact}} or a {{verify source}} tag if you delete a link. —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Good Work 72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs)- Much appreciated. This "article" is definitely full of point of view all over, and any attempt to try and NPOVify it has so far been futile. I'll go through the citations and try to sort the junk from the rest. --khello 00:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Content

Alright guys, I think we should come to an agreement on what to include in this article, and what not to. In its current state, this is what i see wrong with it:

Instead of revert waring, I suggest all the concerned editors reach a compromise/consensus here on the talk page- This is the only way a stable article can be attained. and please do not blindly revert! --khello 00:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

khello, I have always been nuetral, there are lot of people who are coming and changing it without any proofs. i totally agree with ur point of view and outsider just reverts whatever i do, i have given all the reference and its as neutral as possible. he seems to hate zakir naik, too much hatred man this is wrong. what I am saying is there are people like outsider, who dont want to be neutral and they will not follow it. may be we can ask admin of wikipedia to put restrictions on it. let me know what u thinkMak82hyd 02:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"Dr. Zakir is popular for his critical analysis and convincing answers to challenging questions posed by audiences after his public talks. In the last 6 years (by the year 2002), Dr. Zakir Naik has delivered more than 600 public talks in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, South Africa, Mauritius, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hongkong, Thailand, Guyana (South America) and many other countries, in addition to numerous public talks in India.
He has successfully participated in several symposia and dialogues with prominent personalities of other faiths. His public dialogue with Dr. William Campbell (of USA), on the topic, “The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science” held in city of Chicago, U.S.A., on April 1, 2000 was a resounding success." (emphasis added)
Mak82hyd, the above passage is a good example of what what wikipedia is not. This article should simply offer an objective overview of Zakir Naik, what he does, and his notable critics. The above excerpt that you insist on including is a promotion of Dr. Naik (which is POV), which is something that does not fit in an encyclopedic, biographic entry (on the flip side, neither should it be a hate piece on him). Moreover, it does not follow the accepted format on wikipedia (a Bio Data section). Finally, simply copy/pasting from other websites is a copyright violation, and sometime yesterday and administrator actually tagged that section precisely because of that (a warning which was lost due to Outsider2810's reverts)
On the other hand, the recent reverts also managed to undo some of the NPOVifying that myself and Matt57 have tried to do. That's why I'm trying to get all unhappy editors to discuss their changes/deletions/additions so as to cause the least amount of disruption.
So I think our task for the time being is to filter out all the junk references, eliminate original research, and try to get this article to an acceptable standard/format. I reiterate that this cannot be achieved without having a collaborative effort from all the concerned editors; regardless of whether they hate or love Zakir Naik. Whoever comes to this article should expect a neutral, balanced and objective article. --khello 03:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree, this is what I was trying to say the first day I entered here, and deleted all of the content (my bad) :p But the section "his beliefs" is not right, it should either be removed or edited to look better atleast. Those two three line paragraphs dont suite Wiki standards. Secondly, I agree with the part that this should only explain about Who Dr. Naik is (A medical doctor & an Islamic Scholor) and what his routine work is (again a medical doctor by practice and da'wah) and a little bit more about his acheivements and might also include his role as the chairperson of IRF. I simply don't agree with these 10/12 "his beliefs" para's, the make nothing but non-sense. And yes., everyone should be neutral. Akeeq 04:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
khello when somebody tries to put neutral views his haters comes in and write full of lies so there is no other way than revert it. i agree with u if u come up witha plan and all people accept it thats a good idea Mak82hyd 16:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly where are the "lies", Mak82hyd? --Punekar 17:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference and citation tags lost in revert war

Uhh ... will someone please tell me how replacing

the verse 4:3[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html] from the [[Qur'an]] to explain

with

{{Quran|4|73}} to explain

is introducing point of view to the article? Or is

<ref name=irffaq>[http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/ IRF.net: FAQ on Islam]</ref>

somehow less conflict of interest than

 <ref name="faqonislam">{{cite web
 | url = http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/
 | title = FAQ on Islam
 | publisher = Islamic Research Foundation
 | author = Dr. Zakir Naik
 }}</ref>

I'm not going to play these revert games ... I did the work to try to make it more encyclopedic by using the WikiTools for citations, and you guys reverted it because you either think that the subject's website is cited Too Often (WP:SPAM), or because you think that any mention at all of a subject's website somehow violates WP:COI ... I don't know which it is, nor do I really care (frankly, I have Absolutely No Interest Whatsoever in the subject of this article; I just stumbled across it and went all "Adrian Monk," obsessively "cleaning" it) ... this is one of the reasons why I'm not using a registered user account any longer.

I tried to show you all how to do it The Correct Way (like in Real Articles) ... now I'm taking this article off my watchlist, and you people can play your little games without me. </flame> —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 05:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mak82Hyd's edits

Few issues prompting the revert:

1. "Dr. Zakir Naik is renowed as a dynamic international orator on Islam and Comparative Religion"

No reference cited - also, the usage of dynamic and reknowned as adjectives is laudatory in nature and not NPOV.

2. "Dr. Zakir is popular for his critical analysis and convincing answers to challenging questions posed by audiences after his public talks."

Popular is not an adjective that is NPOV. "Convincing" depends on who you ask; again not NPOV.

3. " His public dialogue with Dr. William Campbell (of USA), on the topic, “The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science” held in city of Chicago, U.S.A., on April 1, 2000 was a resounding success."

"Resounding success" is laudatory and not NPOV. Also, this debate is mentioned in the debate section and is repetition.

4. "Sheikh Ahmed Deedat, the world famous orator on Islam and Comparative Religion, who had called Dr. Zakir, "Deedat plus" in 1994, presented a plaque in May 2000 awarded to Dr. Zakir Abdul-Karim Naik for his achievement in the field of Da’wah and the study of Comparative Religion with the engraving "Son what you have done in 4 years had taken me 40 years to accomplish, Alhamdullilah.”"

World-famous is not NPOV. Neither is the mention of someone totally different. Either way, this is self-aggrandizement and laudatory; not NPOV.

5. "Dr. Zakir Naik appears regularly on many international T.V. Channels in more than 100 countries of the world."

No reference or citation. Cannot stay without that.

Rewite this section and let's develop a consensus; else it will be edited out.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Punekar (talk • contribs) 17:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agrees a bit punekar and changed it but dont remove the paragraph in which i gave proof of his win with ravi shankar debate, with time in video as well. tell me the reoson why it should not be here --Mak82hyd 17:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"the reoson why it should not be here" is because Wikipedia is not a soapbox (Look! He won this debate against that guy!) Who wins or loses a debate does not matter in the context of an article, being the kind of trivia (information that is interesting without being important) best left on external sites ... just point to a website that has links to the dicussions/videos and move on -- let readers follow the links in citations and draw their own conclusions.
In my opinion (and apparently some other editors agree) the sections "His views", "Debates and dialogues", and "Naik's critics" are unencyclopedic and should be removed in their entirety, but I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water (unlike some editors) ... in fact, I don't have enough interest in the subject even to participate in reaching a consensus (let alone make anything beyond "cosmetic" edits), but that's my 2¢ worth. —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

matt , u said that ali sina page is his page and it will be about him so is zakir naik page does not belong to him(if it is his page it shoud be about him) why is all critism and anti naik thing there no one like his achievements written there pleae reply to questions --Mak82hyd 18:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Mak82hyd -- please read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles ... IMHO the Ali Sina page blows chunks even worse than this one, and I'd support deleting it. (But, after my experience with this article, I'm not even going to try fixing the references in that one.) ... and please, learn how to indent in these duscussion page posts! —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Mak82hyd -- the references section already has a list of Naik's publications. If you want a list of books he authored to include the new ones you have, please add them there. Also the section on Bilal Phillips is irrelevant in an encylopedia stub on Naik. We need a referenciable precis, not a advertisement. Seek to add information without aggrandizing your hero. Otherwise it will be tagged POV. --Punekar 05:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section on Bilal Phillips

Very little additional information is available from the Bilal section and seems to be centric around Phillips' personal fascination with Naik.

Here is a suggested precis of the information from the new section:

"Naik has delivered more than 600 public talks in many countries. He is associated with Islamic televangelism on many internationally available channels [1], religious publications [citation needed], Da'wah (proselytism) training and lecture tours." --Punekar 05:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Any comments on the precis offered? Or is it just going to be blind reverts? --Punekar 02:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Anon IP from Glasgow, Scotland - please do not do blind reverts without discussion. --Punekar 01:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section on Osama

Naik's speech is clear that he supports Osama if "Osama is terrorizing the terrorist, America". These are his words, verbatim. What possible reason for deletion? --Punekar 02:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The introductory screen for the video linked to the citation for that quote has the text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik at the bottom of the screen ... does anyone else see that as a WP:COI violation? —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm lost for words... --khello 03:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
... and when did a long-winded video soundbyte of the subject pontificating that's been posted on YouTube or Google Video become a credible 3rd part source? (Besides which, not everyone has a high-speed connection to be able to view them ... see WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided if you are unclear on the concept.) —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:RS#Using_online_sources, the video links would fall under the classification of a 'primary source'. To wit, "A primary source is a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs; in other words, a source very close to the situation you are writing about. ". --Punekar 05:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be deleted

This article has been, once again, completely distorted and converted in some sort of Naik advertisement.

In my view, it has beco;e a hopeless case.

giordaano158.169.9.14 23:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the result was a Keep. Let's endeavour to keep it NPOV. --Punekar (プネカル) 16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

i agree with u punekar but u seems to be anti naik and delete whatever i add. i have added with references dont delete it if u want modify it with proper references. Mak82hyd 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Mak82hyd, I suggest you stop ascribing intentions to other editors as well as personal attacks. The problem with your Bilal section is that it does not add any more information other than express Bilal's admiration for Naik. I suggest the precis below instead of the section you added. Let me know if this is acceptable to you - "Naik has delivered more than 600 public talks in many countries. He is associated with Islamic televangelism on many internationally available channels [1], religious publications [citation needed], Da'wah (proselytism) training and lecture tours." --Punekar (プネカル) 13:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


Additionally, the section on his books needs to go into the publications section which is right at the bottom. The reason it is reverted is that it is duplicated information. You may have a list of all his notable publications, but you may only do it in the correct section. --Punekar (プネカル) 13:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Punekar , The Bilal Philip section will stay there asi gives lot of info about Dr. Naik and The section Books authored by Zakir Naik cannot be removed as it is his page and the books written by him will stay there and they wont be in publication section on he bottom as its not fair over there. I am gonna add more genuine stuff about him. remember this is nopt anti naik page if u want to critisize him only write it in critizism section or create a new page as anti naik. Mak82hyd 21:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Mak82hyd : The Bilal section does not meet the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability guidelines. I would urge you to review the published guidelines there before inserting a section that provides no additional information. If you read through it, all it says is that Bilal thinks Naik is the best thing since sliced bread. Great. Unfortunately, Bilal is a non-entity with limited influence. --Punekar (プネカル) 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


The books have to be under the Publications section, since books are published. This is the case with all biography articles - you may reference other bios such as Robert Grant or Pat Robertson. Ergo, I don't see the relative "fairness" or "unfairness" of this; kindly enlighten me as to why the Naik article cannot follow these general rules. --Punekar (プネカル) 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Mak82hyd - All views about Naik, whether critical or fawning must assume the form of facts (not factoids) and come under a single encyclopaedia article. You commented that this is "Naik's page". It is not. It is a page on Naik. What this means is that you cannot claim ownership of the page, or for that matter, insist that glowing tributes be paid to your favourite cleric. What this also means is that critical facts about Naik will be part of this page, that the links you dislike will not go away. Reconcile yourself to the fact that we will have to share this space and it is mandatory to discusss what is reverted and why. I am obliged to satisfy wikipedia regulations, as are you.
This editing nugget will help you understand this better - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute. I understand you are new to the editing community and may not be aware of these and other regulations. However, blind reverting will not get you anywhere since there are many eyes looking at this article and all of us having Internet connections just like yours. Too many edits will get you banned, so try to work it out amicably instead. --Punekar (プネカル) 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti Muslim Bias

Punekar, U said the books have to be in publication sections and gave some names Robert Grant and Pat Robertson. have u checked their articles if u have not plz go and chck it. one doesnot have any books and one have books in a section called books and thats what i did with Dr. Naik. Dont show ur jealousness of Dr. Naik proofs with hatred on his page. You said it is not his page but a page on him thats what i am saying its a page on him not his critism page even though u wrote lot of views and info about him which shows him in negative aspect. you have not given any positive info about him and when i give that u just revert it even though it has references and extra info about him. you are saying there are hundreds of eyes looking at this article. I know there are hundreds of Anti Naik bias eyes are looking at this article but dont forget there are some eyes which are watching these anti Naik eyes like you as well so be careful when u revert. if some data in edited try to edit it to get npov but dont revert it. will u like if i go and put all critism on hindu articles live Ravi shankar and ur fav article 'no' thats why dont just vandalise this page just because u hate this guy who is called Doctor Genius. if u want to prove him wrong why dont u go and call ur hindu gurus to come and debate him infront of live audience. regarding Bilal philips views its a different site and there are different resources with which u can get these info so dont delete it. Mak82hyd 02:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Mak82hyd's edits/ Naik puffery

[edit] Books section

'Mak82hyd - if you realize, there are more than one kind of publication. Books are published, as are CDs and movies. In the Naik publications section, you will find a link to books and a video. If you have seen the Pat Robertson page, you will have noted that the Books section on that page is right at the bottom. Before that you have the biographical information, views, criticisms and finally ends with references. Why should the Naik article not follow the standard wikipedia format ?

[edit] Bilal Section

This section is so POV, it's hard to figure out where to begin. Let's look at the language point by point:

- As A medical doctor by professional training, Dr. Zakir Naik is renowed as a dynamic international orator on Islam and Comparative Religion.
 Dr. Zakir Naik clarifies Islamic viewpoints and clears misconceptions about Islam, using the Qur'an, authentic Hadith and other religious
Scriptures as a basis, in conjunction with reason, logic and scientific facts
This line is already in the bio in the first para. Why duplicate?
- He is 37 years old
If you haven't noticed, there is the date of birth mentioned explictly under his photo. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and cannot have an age that is only relevant at the time of writing. Comprende ?
- Philips says Dr. Zakir is popular for his critical analysis and convincing answers to challenging questions posed by audiences after his public talks.
In the last 6 years (by the year 2002), Dr. Zakir Naik has delivered more than 600 public talks in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Kuwait,
Qatar, Bahrain, South Africa, Mauritius, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hongkong, Thailand, Guyana (South America) and many other countries, in addition 
to numerous public talks in India.
This is what Bilal has to say. This is not an article about what Bilal thinks. It is an article about Naik. See the problem ? I still see some relevant information in this line - which I suggest be compressed into a refenciable precis. Do you understand what a precis is ?
I would put this under Naik supporters -
The Deedat section is also poorly written and is punctuated with POV everywhere. As an example, here are adjectives found in there - world-famous, popular etc. This *cannot* stay.
Also, there is the entire list of what Phillips's website writes about Naik. Have you read or seen an encyclopaedia, my friend? I mean, seriously?


[edit] Other edits

Also, in the spate of your blind reverts, I notice you have edited out the following, and I would like to hear your reasoning behind it:

- The subsection in Views on Support for Osama bin Laden. This comes with a verfiable reference - namely, a video featuring Naik himself.

- The subsection in Views on Analogy of Father and Son. Again this is verifiably referenced with Naik quotes.

- Hijab subsection - the line about hijab for men is so grammatically wrong, it makes me wince. Here's the line -

"To the men, Islam prescribes to turn away their gaze if they happen to unintentionally look at stranger women, so that they can avoid immodest 
thoughts which might enter their minds.".

This needs to read

"For men, he prescribes looking away from women if immodest thoughts enter their minds."

- Debates section - the entire FAQ from famousmuslims.com can be a refenciable link. Reproduction of text is over the top, and certainly POV.

- Ali Sina section - this section was deleted by you totally. The reason this section found a home under Debates was because of a consensus between Naik supporting editors and the community at large. Unless this section is kept, the entire debates section will be deleted. Please look through discussion history to get a perspective on this.

- Naik's critics section - the quote by RaviShanker was deleted. Again, if the famousmuslims.com's fawning quotes can remain, why must this go away?

- External Links - all anti-Naik links were deleted. If this is not POV whitewashing, what is?

I will retain the Bilal section marking it POV pending rewrite. I will be the bigger man here until I see some kind of consensus building.

punekar, U have done some good job but it still looks more as anti Naik than about Naik. I hope u will think about it and make it more npov. In the books and publication section U wrote PRO Naik publications its just laughable mate. its his publications and debates. just list it like that. let people who read and listen to them decide what they think. I think u r right in saying section on osama and others remaining are fine. if we are here to discuss i suggest u remove the puffery word as I can call u bias as well. i leave it on you to decide. i will appreciate if u want to make it npov. when bilal section in supporters list why cant so called ali sina challenge is in criticism section is it not pov. and giivng CIA site as reference and saying most of Naiks examples are wrong is just pov. I think what deedat said should be there atleast in his supporters section. u have put anti naik sites first will it not be better to put in the other links section i think Anti Naik section is pov. lets debate with honesty and make this article npov but if u make it more anti Naik bias then remember as u r ready I am ready for the revert war as well. If u make it more Anti Naik Ill make it more Naiks. and If u make it npov ill make it npov as well. Thanks for helping me with this article. Mak82hyd 15:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lets try and make it NPOV

I have made some edits nothing added but just modified if anybody wants to change it please discuss it. I think the present article looks like more npov as it shows both positive and negative views. please discuss if u want a change. Mak82hyd 18:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questioning You Tube

Can videos posted randomly on the internet (like You-Tube) be considered reliable sources of what Dr. Naik says to his audiences? I think we must get more reliable sources.Bless sins 02:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slimming down

While Zakir Naik is relevant, he does not justify the mass of information added to his biography which sounds very much like a hagiography.

What's the point of reproducing what Bilal Philips, Ahmed Deedat have to say about him ? you could just as well post 200 other opinions on him.

Also, linking all his material at the Islamic Research Foundation is useless. Interested people will go to IRF and find anything they need (his presence on IRF is conspicuous enough).

Inshort : Wikipedia should not be used as an unpaid advertisement for Dr Z and his dawah material. This is an encyclopedia, not a commercial site.

Best regards Giordaano 15:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cricket

Naik aficionados are incorrigible.

I notice that the old claim about Naik knowing by heart all results of cricket test matches from 1925 onwards is back again in the article.

Did the International Cricket Council verify this claim ? is it relevant ? more importantly, why does Naik neglect results of matches played before 1925 ? what's so special about 1925 in cricket history ? was he just too lazy to study those old results ?

Anyway, the debate on this particular issue rages on, also outside of wikipedia. Check [7]

Most people are skeptical about this claim

All the best Giordaano 10:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Giordaana, He does not claim anyhting, its claimed by his supporters thats why it is there. and regarding ur wuestion about why deedat and bilal opinions are there. they are there beacause there is critism section and Ali sina section critisising him so there should be his supporters section as well. plz dont revert just coz hate him. i am trying to be npov and did my best but u seems to be anti naik and reverting him. if it goes on I will report u to be blocked. Mak82hyd 17:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misquoted and preposterous!

Many things Dr. Zakir says have been misquoted. To understand what he says fully, u need to listen to his whole speech but in here only a few parts are given as if they have been given so that people can critiscize him. Is not wikipedia a "neutral encyclopdia"!! Let me give u a simple example of misquotation, if a good man says "That robber is destroying people's property. We must catch that man and beat him." You just quote "We.....beat him" and then the wholw world comes to know that good man to be bad! This is precisely what happens in this article. THIS ARTICLE IS NOT NEUTRAL. THIS IS THE 1ST TIME I SAW SUCH A "BIASED" ARTICLE IN WIKIPEDIA, THIS IS THE 1ST TIME WIKIPEDIA HAS LET ME (and many more ppl) DOWN. SOMEONE PLEASE DELETE THIS BIASED ARTICLE. (Ahnaf 13:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

ahnaf, I have worked on this article to take out the biased nature, but whenever i try there are lots of anti naik and anti muslim biased people here, so they always take things out of context and put it here. we can just try our best. i invite u to work on this article and others to remove the bias nature of this anti naik people. they want Ali sina comments who is not notable according to wikipedia and deleted but they dont want comments from Ahmed deedat and bilal philips who are great scholars and recognised even by wikipedia. still i would like to tell u one thing I recognised here is there is too much anti muslim bias and this wikipedia is not npov encyclopedia but more like athiest or christian encyclopedia. and also try muslimwikipedia.com as well. peace. Mak82hyd 17:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article is a disaster

Why on earth should this article give long excerpts of what Naik thinks about everything and anything, and include long quotations from the "Glorious Quran"? in fact, why should so much space be dedicated to Naik ?

The article should be an expose of Naik's ideas, but not an anthology of quotations on whatever he may think on the most disparate subjects. Why not post hundreds of pages from his books, while we're at it ? That's not the way to construct a good article. The link section also has reached proportions very near to link spamming.

As it is, the article is hopeless. I have tried to tidy it up a bit, but it really seems a propaganda leaflet for Naik and his Islamic Research Foundation.

NPOV ? well...erm...Giordaano 01:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

G Giordaano 01:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not Zakir Naik exposed aticle . Its about what he says & what he does . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 03:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


I totally agree with Giordaano, this is what I have been saying since day one, this should be a wiki biography article, not something to blabber about his thoughts :/ but this is hopeless here. Akeeq 05:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Giordano says:

I have reduced the article to more reasonable proportions. Long quotations from Naik's work, or from the Quran, have no place in an encyclopedia.

One of the problems of this article is that, since most contributors don't have English as their first language, there is the temptation to include long quotes from Naik's texts. This, however, should be avoided; if possible, a clear exposition of his ideas should replace this random anthology of bits and pieces from his works.

Whenever possible, quotes of the Quran should be replaced by a link to the relevant Surah.

Wikipedia is non-confessional. All this talking about the "noble" Quran takes a confessional point of view. Why also should we always have "Dr. Zakir Naik ?" does anyone speak of "Dr. Sigmund Freud" ?

Someone (preferably of English mother tongue) should also review the language.

Any volunteers ? All the best Giordaano 09:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I attempted the difficult task of making something out of this random mass of material. Attention, please, future editors : it's not possible to insert things like "Naik proved that..." or "Naik successfully showed that..." etc etc. Those are personal opinions.

I also think that judgements on Naik by other people should be linked, but not reproduced "in extenso" on this page.

Also, more attention should be given to grammar. All the best Giordaano 12:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What you have actually done is revert back that version that is forced by POV pushers, vandalising important information. Please desist. The quotations definitely need to be reduced . Cheers! F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 15:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please pay attention : go to the page on Sigmund Freud, or Jaques Lacan. Both these people are medical doctors, but their contribution to culture was mainly as philosophical thinkers.

For this reason, no one speaks of "Dr. Sigmund Freud", or "Dr. Jacques Lacan".

For the same reason, it's ridiculous to have all the time "Dr. Zakir Naik". It's a naive attempt to impress people with his academic title. Naik is not famous as a practicing doctor, but as a dawah preacher.

On the article : it's full of repetiotions. The same books and videos are quoted, repeated. We have quotations by Naik, and quotations by people (Deedat, Phillips) about Naik etc etc

I have tried to clean-up somehow, but we are far from an acceptable text.

I am under no illusion that my reasons will convince those who are persuaded that expressions such as "Dr. Zakir Naik convincingly affirmed that etc etc" have their place on an encyclopedia article.

All the best Giordaano 13:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

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