Talk:Yuval Aviv

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Contents 1 Security experience 2 Sources

[edit] Security experience

I moved the following statement from the article to this page for discussion.

"in New York for El Al. This is apparently his only security experience."

It is unclear whether the "apparently ... only" modifier is true. First, Aviv claims he was a member of the Mossad. Second, the article states that he was a member of the Israeli armed forces. My understanding of "security experience" is that both the (not indepentdently verified) Mossad connection, and the (presumably independently verifiable) military experience would count as "security experience." --Zippy 22:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Army service is not security experience. Everybody goes to the army, but crewing a tank, let alone servicing one, or whatever he was doing in the Armoured Corps, doesn't give you any experience relevant to security. His supposed Mossad service isn't just "not independently verified", it's positively contradicted by people who would have known him had he been there. The fact that he claims to have worked for the Mossad shouldn't count for anything; lots of con men and madmen make similar claims. --User:Zsero 4:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of the ordinary meaning of "security experience" which I think most readers would take as anything including "security guard", "police officer." Certainly, his experience as a security guard for el Al would count as most people understand the phrase "security experience." Perhaps what the article is trying to say with "security experience" could be re-worded to be specific. Do you have a more specific meaning in mind?

Regarding the dispute over whether he did or did not, we should present the verifiable facts. And the article does. It's verifiable that Avner claims X, and it's also verifiable that other people who should or would know claim otherwise. Given that this is about a sensitive matter, it's presumably more difficult to independently verify, so I think this is the best we can do. --Zippy 22:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course the El Al job counts as security experience. Nobody has suggested otherwise. The point is that that is his only security experience. His service in the armoured corps has nothing to do with security, and nobody would understand "security experience" to include that. --User:Zsero 0:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is difficult to obtain corroboration of Avner's or Yuval's account. That is difficult in ANY industry. Anyone who breaks ranks and leaves and then gripes about what he or she has left behind is difficult to get written support on from those who are still in it because their livelihoods depend on it. That is true for pretty much any business out there. That doesn't make the whistleblower right or wrong. The best indication is that the industry says nothing because then one can presume that they don't wish to argue any evidence the black sheep who left has. I have seen that numerous times just in business. A prime example is ETL/SEMKO/Intertek/Warnock Hersey. Check the talk page. I would put that sort of thing into the article, that, yes, we can't find independent written corroboration, and it's unrealistic to expect any in such a case.--Achim 10:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Does anyone have sources for his birthplace, education, and work experience? It would better to say "according to ..." given that nothing is known for certain. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)