Talk:Yue Fei

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[edit] Manjiang Hong in English

is there a english translation of Manjiang Hong?

Man Chiang Hung literally means “whole river is red” was written by a Sung dynasty general named Yueh Fei, who vowed to crush the Jurchen occupiers of the northern China. He wrote this poem to express his patriotic sorrows about his weakened country.

There are English translations, but all of the translators are quite quesy about the flesh-eating and blood-drinking part. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 00:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

see article Man Jiang Hong HELLO, WORLD! 15:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] charge or no charge?

I found the following sentence untrue to the historical account.

He and his son, Yue Yun, were sentenced to death and executed on charges that were not proven but instead "could be true" (Chinese: 莫須有; Pinyin: mò xū yǒu). The phrase has entered the Chinese language as an expression to refer to fabricated charges.

This sentence implies that there was actually an unproven charge of his crime. But in many references, it was said that the reason for his death sentence was 莫須有 which literally means "none needed". A "none needed" crime is quite different from a crime that is unproven. To illustrate the difference, considering a person was accused of murder and then executed before the crime was proven, then it was merely a loop hole in the legal procedure but murder is still a real capital crime if proven. However if a person's charge was "none needed", it was a clearly an abuse of autheority by ignoring any legal system. I've never seen 莫須有 used in modern language to refer to fabricated charges, punished unfairly without reason, yes; fabricated charges, no. Kowloonese 00:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Your understanding of ancient Chinese is flawed. Most who studies ancient Chinese texts will tell you that 莫須有 means 也许有 in modern Chinese, which means exactly "could be true". Yue Fei was indeed charged with a crime, which was treason, the evidence was some probably forged letters. Clearly this was not enough evidence, but he was executed anyway on the basis of "could be true". Yue Fei was a very popular and powerful general, he can not possibly be executed for "no reason needed", the reason given by the court was "could be true" treason. Even given this reason, Yue Fei's execution was almost immediately criticized and mourned. In the later years of Gaozong, he was under immense pressure from the general public to restore Yue Fei's honor, but he never did. The next emperor 宋孝宗 almost immediately restored Yue Fei's honor and gave him a proper burial (while his father Gaozong was still alive, but no longer ruling). -- Ranmin 06:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
BTW, as a reference, you can check the Chinese wikitionary entry on 莫須有, which clearly states that "none needed" was the wrong interpretation and the correct interpretation was "could be true". http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%8E%AB%E9%A1%BB%E6%9C%89 -- Ranmin 06:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Additional Reference, in the Chinese wikipedia article, it is clearly stated that 秦桧支吾其词“其事体莫须有(也许有)”, I assume you can read Chinese and you should understand that it says "could be true". This fact has never been widely discussed nor disputed until you brought it up here. -- Ranmin 03:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
莫須有 means 也许有 (could be true), not "none needed". I have found some Chinese Web Sites suggesting that the kneeling statues of Mr and Mrs. Qun Hui were produced in Ming Dynasty. On 23 October 2005, an artist exhibited his standing statues of Mr. and Mrs. Qin Hui, but he was harshly blamed. As there is no article for Qin Hui yet, I hope to add this in an article later.--Jusjih 07:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I capitalized Yue Fei's name in the first sentence because the paragraph itself was too "busy". Their is so much info about the traditional and simplified spellings of his name that it would had to distinguish anything. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 13:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Chen Guang, Yue Fei's spear master?

I've read the english-version of General Yue Fei's biography. This is where I got the basis for most of my info for the page I wrote on Yue Fei's adopted father Zhou Tong. However, according to a separate history, Yue Fei didn't learn the spear from Zhou Tong, he learned it from a man named Chen Guang. Instead, Yue Fei learned ONLY archery from his adopted father. If anyone has access to chinese manuscripts on this matter and wishes to translate them into English, I'm sure this page would greatly bennifit from you hard work. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC))

I had one of my Chinese friends search the net and he only found this about Chen Guang, "枪手陈广(Spear Man, Chen Guang)". THAT IS IT! All that is known about him is that he was Yue Fei's FIRST martial teacher. Apparently he has been lost to history. The only reason we know of his name is because of his association with Yue Fei.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 04:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC))

According to one chinese source which I don't have the correct link to right now, Chen Guang was a noted spear and sword master from the same area as Yue Fei. Since Yue Fei was most famous for his spear skills, you think that there would be more information available on the man who taught him. Plus, if a weapon is considered an extension of the body and is not learned until after mastering prerequisite boxing skills, what was the quanfa taught to Yue Fei by Chen Guang?

The research I added sometime ago about Yue Fei's grandfather hiring Chen Guang when the boy was in the "Hat Conferring" Period (ages 15-20) suggests that Zhou Tong was maybe his FIRST martial teacher. If Yue Fei was really adopted after 15 (1118) it leaves less than a year before Zhou Tong's death in 1119. I really doubt Zhou Tong could impart all of his martial knowledge to Yue Fei in that short amount of time. This points to the fact that Zhou Tong adopted Yue Fei at an earlier age. If Yue Fei's family were truly that poor, they would have given their son to Zhou Tong in adoption at an early age to improve his social status: farmer - warrior (which is a short skip to aristocrat if you look at all of that power he gained later in life). Many modern martial-scholars believe Yue Fei gained all of his martial skill by the age of 19, the year he joined the army (1122). Plus, there was a 3 year interval between Zhou Tong's death and the time he joined the army. This could mean Yue Fei had mastered Zhou Tong's boxing and then learned the spear under Chen Guang. So, Yue Fei could have been learning from both men at the same time, but Zhou Tong first and Chen Guang second. Then, after Zhou Tong's death, Yue Fei continued to learn from Chen Guang until he joined the army. But of course all of this is just speculation.

I know the "Talk" page is used for discussion on the betterment of the article itself, but I've presented this speculation in the hopes that it might lead other users with superior Yue Fei knowledge to present factual information that is parallel with or more historically accurate. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 13:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] The Two Legends...

Over the years, I have come across two different legends about Yue Fei:

1) Guan Di visited Song Dynasty Emperor Huizong in a dream and told him that the hero Zhang Fei had been reborn as a child named "Yo Fei" (Yue Fei). This child would grow up to fight the invaders from the north. (I read this in passing, while doing research on another matter. I'm still trying to find the exact page on the net so I can source it onto the main Yue Fei article).

2) In a previous life, Yue Fei was a Peng (Roc) who poked out the eye of a dragon who lived in the Yellow River. Years later, the Peng was reborn as our hero. The dragon flooded the river in an effort to kill young Yue Fei, but failed. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Yue Huo, Biological father of Yue Fei ...

I've added the name of Yue Fei's father along with the chinese characters and added a "possible" birth and death date. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I put a questions mark on it to show that. According to Yue Fei's biography, Yue Huo was "...nearly fifty years of age" (47, 48, 49?) when Yue Fei was born. I just subtracted 49 from 1103 to get the date. If anyone has a more exact date please post it! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Today, I deleted the date I put for Yue Huo's birth and death. The reason I did this is because some chinese records show his father didn't drown in the Yellow River flood, but several years later in 1122. [1] (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC))

I have again posted a date for Yue Huo, based on historical records for which I've cited a link to. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Historical fact or fiction?

The problem with any modern Yue Fei info is most of it is based on popular chinese legends, which have, overtime, become accepted as historical fact. One good example would be the legend of Yue Fei and his mother floating down the river in a clay urn. Tangyin county, home of Yue Fei, is nearly 60 miles north from the Yellow River! The new info I've posted comes from a Chinese webpage. I believe this is the real deal. However, I am not going to mess with this page since my possible actions would surely be refuted by people who actually believe they know what happened to Yue Fei 903 years ago. I personally believe this page should be split into "Historical" and "Legend"!!!

Even in the more "historically plausible" history, the Yellow River floods Yue Fei's village. But since the Yellow River is some 60 miles south of Tangyin County it would be impossible for this to happen. However, a distributary of the Wei He, being the largest tributary of the Yellow River, runs by Tangyin County. There is a Henan map available on Encarta but you have to "ZOOM IN" towards Anyang at the top. This could explain why his family's crops were destroyed eventhough their village was so far away from the Yellow River. I've heard other sources say that it was raining very heavily just after Yue Fei's birth.

Although it supposedly flooded all of the time, I have yet to find any chinese records that concretely show that the Yellow River actually flooded in 1103. The closest I've come to is 1143, which further devistated local farmers on top of an earthquake.[2] I don't remember the link, but I've read a source that said modern Kaifeng actually sits on 25 feet of silt from where it used to be (in reference to which dynasty I don't know).(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Translation and another alias?

In a chinese XingYiQuan book from 1929 (Xing2 Yi4 Quan2 Shu4 Jiang3 Yi4), I have come across the following phrase "岳忠武王形意拳要訣" as a title of one of the chapters. This chapter appears to be about Yue Fei being the founder of Xingyiquan, but as I read those characters they say "yue4 zhong1 wu3 wang2 xing2 yi4 quan2 yao4 jue2" or "General Yue Zhong founded xingyiquan". Anyone know if 岳忠 is another name used for Yue Fei generally, or is this a one-off use? -- Medains 07:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

忠, zhōng = Loyalty, devotion, fidelity. I'm guessing that they were calling him "Loyal Yue" because of his loyalty to the Song Empire. It sounds like a nickname.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC))

Well, actually ancient Chinese emperors, officials and generals were given honorable titles after their death. 忠武 is such a title for Yue Fei, which means "loyal and brave". 王 means "king". Took 06:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yue Fei's offically recognized posthumous name was Wumu (武穆). In the martial world, he is known as "King Wumu". (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC))

忠武 is another one. See the Chinese wikipedia article. Took 22:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

This article is more than just a good start, but there is a lot of work to be done. There's a picture, which is a great touch. And there are sections touching on every element of his life. But each section is quite short and could really use some expansion. I realize that Yueh Fei is not *quite* as well-known and famous and important as Guan Yu, but if you take a look at how much has been written on him, I am sure there is more than can be said about Yue Fei as well. LordAmeth 01:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

As I wrote above, its hard to distinguish between Fact or Fiction. Most modern Yue Fei info is based off of myths that have been excepted as fact. There is more fictional information available than factual. Battle-wise, not all of his confrontations have been posted in english online. Unless a person knows Chinese they are stuck with spotty accounts of his military prowess.

The info that I added about his martial arts teachers and the alternate history of his father surviving the flood is the most in-depth, "realistic" info about his personal life that I have ever seen on the english net. I got this information with the help of General Zhaoyun, founder of the "China History Forum". He pointed me in the direction of certain chinese websites with a wonderful collection of info about Yue Fei's early life.

One chinese website I came across, which I had to translate with Bable Fish, even tried to explain his personality, but it was just speculation. Actually, the Yue Fei article on Chinese wikipedia has other information about him, but is less extenstive (length wise) about his life. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Battles

It has been said that Yue Fei won over 120 battles, but I've yet to find many references to his battles. This site lists a "Battle of Yancheng" is which he fought the larger army of Wanyan Zongbi and won - amoungst mentions of other military successes. The List of Chinese battles lists only 3 battles in the Song Dynasty period - this surely must be addressed! -- Medains 14:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

General Zhaoyun, founder of the "China History Forum", has posted a long and detailed history of the Song Dynasty. CLICK HERE!. Later in this same history, he gives a detailed personal and battle history for Yue Fei. CLICK HERE!. (In fact, he is the one who supplied me with the information about Yue Fei's spear teacher Chen Guang.) I would have written a much longer section of his battle history, but it is so complex and I think my hands would fall off before I was finished. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Yue Fei's biographies

Yue Fei has two biographies, one historical and one fictional. The historical biography was compiled in 1345 along with the “History of the Song”, which is one of the Twenty-Four Histories. It is called Yue Fei Zhuan (岳飞传 – "Yue Fei Biography"). The second, a fictional biography, was originally written between the years 1661-1735. It is called Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan (說岳全傳 - "Speak Yue's Entire Biography"). This has its own page on Chinese Wikipedia.

I think these should be added to the article. But I’m too busy to add it myself. So I’m writing this in the hopes that someone will do it for me. For more information about the biographies, see my article on Zhou Tong (monk), Yue Fei's archery teacher. If you go to Zhou Tong (monk)#External links you can read the full historical biography (Chinese only). I used an internet translator as my Chinese SUCKS!

I want to stress that the "historical" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw or any other kind of boxing style. It just comments on how good of an archer Yue Fei was. The "fictional" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw either. It is important to note that this book was written from popular folktales that were common among the people of the day. Since Eagle Claw is not mentioned, this might lead some to believe that Eagle claw was not created until centuries after Yue Fei's death.(Ghostexorcist 21:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC))

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