Talk:Yorkshire dialect and accent

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[edit] It says here

It says here that Yorkshire has a flat tone of voice with little variation, but the article on Regional accents of English speakers says that Yorkshire has sing-song notation. I'm not quite sure what the latter means, but there may be a contadiction there. From my experience, people speak very flatly around Wakefield, Normanton, Barnsley. However, to say that people from Scarborough or Whitby talk flatly is very wrong, indeed.

[edit] Scarborough

Scarborough accent hard to understand?


Just for the record, I find it hard to understand. Don't know about everyone else. It's getting towards the Middlesbrough twang - as you'd expect, seeing as it's in that direction.
It's not that difficult, pretty similar to most of the NER accents. The bit missed here is the assumption that all Yorkshire accents are the same, normally there's a strong division into West Riding (WR) and North and East Riding (NER) accents. Even these accents can be divided by area, e.g. Hambleton is different from York, though both are NER.

[edit] 'e 'asn't bin tekkin 'is aspirates

An "h" at the start of the world is usually dropped; Huddersfield, herd and hook would be pronounced 'Uddersfield, 'erd and 'ook. The only exception is when the word starts with a hyu sound; human would be pronounced as it is usually.

Someone has changed this recently and I'd propose changing it back. You do occasionally hear 'Uddersfield, but not normally 'erd or 'ook. I'd find it very hard to say 'ook; it'd hurt my throat.

NER style (well, Hambleton, or 'ambleton) is still to drop our h's, so we would say 'uddersfield, 'erd and 'ook.

In W.R., "hook" always used to be said as "oook" as in a long Stoke/Scottish ooo. This remains in the phrase "to take your oook" but can't remember hearing it elsewhere. I don't think that you can really draw a line as to when h is said, but it seems accurate to me to say that an hu sound is more likely to say the h than elsewhere.

Broad accented Loiners tend to drop the "h" in all cases even with hyu sounds like human.

[edit] While meaning "until"

Just want to say to whoever wrote the last bit about the word "while" meaning "until" has got it spot on. After recently moving to University most southern people looked at me all confused when I used the words...

Why is this confusing to anyone? "While" does mean "until"; context is all. Yer Romans knew that, and they weren't the only ones either. Paul Tracy|\talk

[edit] Duck

Don't forget "duck", e.g. in "thanks, duck"! Marky1981 10:32, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

That's more of a Midland phrase. You get in Sheffield for sure, but not many other places in Yorkshire.
Should definitely be mentioned as being Sheffield though. My Grandparents have always said it.
Duck is definitely Midlands. Love or cock is far more common in Yorkshire. I've even heard cock used in its full "cocker spadge" form i.e. cock sparrow.
"Duck" in this context is definitely an East Midlands saying that has crept North into the Sheffield area.BaseTurnComplete 23:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

ah, i 'eard "duck" all 'time growing up in sheffield.
jonathan riley

This may well be explained by the significant migration of coal miners and iron workers from towns in Staffordshire to Sheffield, at the end of th 18th. century / beginning of the 19th. century, as steelmaking (and coal mining) rapidly expanded in Sheffield. Wikityke 13:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chuck

Is "chuck" not an affectionate Yorkshire term as in chicken or "Ta, chuck"

[edit] 'a' and 'o' sounds in NER

One item missed in the vowels section is the different 'a' and 'o' used in the NER flavour of the Yorkshire dialect, which is more akin the more Northern accents (e.g. Geordie, Mackem). For example the 'a' in 'cake' or the 'o' in 'coke'.

[edit] 'Emmerdale is set in North Yorkshire'

Now, I don't watch the programme, but I live near where it is filmed - and it is filmed in West Yorkshire.

Whether it is set in North Yorkshire, I haven't a clue. Can someone clear this one up? --Albert 18:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe its set in the West Yorkshire Dales.Jonwood1 18:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The emmerdale set is either in or close to the grounds of Harewood House. About 12 miles north of Leeds.

[edit] Time confusion

I think that this article might need a makeover. One thing is that it seems a bit inconsistent about whether we're dealing with the Yorkshire dialect as it was traditionally spoken before recent times compromised it with R.P. or whether we're dealing with it as it is now. Some of the things mentioned in the article are now very rare to hear. For example, replacing a /t/ with an /r/ and the Sheffield dee-da thing. I work in Sheffield, and I've never once heard anyone use the th --> d thing. On the other hand, there are plenty of antiquated bits of Yorkshire that aren't mentioned here. Might need a good think. I personally think that it would be better to document the Yorkshire accents and dialect as they are today.

[edit] Teesside

Ive added a small paragraphg in reference to the South Tees and Middlesbrough accent which is historically the North Riding and now in the ceremonila county of North Yorkshire. Although its is predominatly a North East accent its still has a hefty portion of North Yorkshire in it. I'd reckon about 40% NY, 40% is Durham and the remaing 20% is from the Irish, Welsh and other immigrant workers during the early 1900's. dj_paul84 01:35 am, 23 August, 2006

That's good. We need more North Yorkshire stuff generally. It's not as easy to explain the N.Y. accent unless you are well-trained in how to put pronounciations into words. I'd call Middlesbrough a Yorkshire accent myself; it's not that different from Scarborough.
I wouldn't worry about Irish influences on it, for there is a hefty Irish influence on accents in the industrial West Riding. For example, look at pronounciations of "necessary", "secretary", etc. If I meet people from Ireland, they all seem to be able to understand broad West Riding speak. 212.159.30.47 10:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does "luck" sound like "look" in Yorkshire?

I found this article after becoming very interested in the accent of Arctic Monkeys, a band from Sheffield. Two things stand out to me about their accent. Firstly, /ʌ/ is merged into /ʊ/, making words such as 'luck' and 'look' homophones. Secondly, /t/ is usually a glottal stop except when initial, which to me is reminiscent of the Cockney accent. The problem, however, is that this article makes no mention of the first characteristic, and says something different about the second characteristic.

I suppose what I'm trying to figure out here is if Arctic Monkeys' accent is in fact the Yorkshire one, and if the info I've provided is relevant to this article. — Äþelwulf See my contributions. 04:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Re look/luck, this is one of the general Northern features mentioned. The link to English English had been broken by changes to that article; I have corrected that and added explicit mention of two of the better known features, which hopefully makes it a bit clearer. (But put/putt is a better minimal pair than look/luck, because some people pronounce look like Luke.) As for glottal stops, it does mention them, doesn't it? "In some areas, people may use a glottal stop for /t/." They're not particularly a Yorkshire thing, anyway: I think they can be found in most urban British accents, except for Scouse.--JHJ 12:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite confused. I thought look and luck were homophones everywhere!

Luck/look merger is always classified as "Northern", although, from my experience, it's more north-central. People from Lincs, Notts, Derbs, Staffs, even Wolverhampton all say "look" and "luck" the same, but they become different in the far north. With the glottal stop, it's something that I've mentioned in the section above on "Time confusion". Thirty years ago, glottal stops didn't happen in Yorkshire; a /t/ either became an /r/ or was said as normal. Now, people are glottalling the /t/ all over. The reason why it isn't mentioned often in Yorkshire guides is that dialect purists tend to disapprove of this Cockney trend. Some areas still say the /t/ - the North Riding plus bits of the West. Epa101 22:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rita, Sue and Bob Too?

"the 1986 film Rita, Sue and Bob Too featured a Bradford accent" It might have featured a Bra'fud accent, somewhere, but the main actors were from the wrong side of the pennines.

Bob was definitely not from Lancashire, although he probably wasn't from Bradford. I'd say he was from somewhere around Wakefield or Dewsbury. He said "darn" for "down", "abart" for "about", etc. and you never get that in Lancashire.
You were correct on Rita and Sue though. Rita was from Oldham, and Sue was from Rochdale. Reference has been removed. Epa101 11:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] glots

Hi, unnamed user cut this

"Many accents in the East Riding and in the West Yorkshire cities present an increasing tendency to use a glottal stop for all non-initial /t/ sounds, excepting those in consonant clusters. e.g [bɒʔl] for bottle, [saʔ] for sat. A hard /k/ at the end of a word may also be replaced with a different glottal, produced further back in the throat.[citation needed] Glottal stops are also a possible realisation of the definite article; see the section below on definite article reduction. "

replaced it as no reasons given, and as anybody living in Yorkshire knows that glottalisation is a feature of the modern dialect, far more than "gerrof" or "gerrin berrer". As these are non-standard features in modern Yorkshire speech they have a place in the article, regardless of their origin.

It's still there - they just moved it to a different place. I'd still like to know what that bit about /k/ being realised as a "different glottal" is all about, though. And please remember that everything in this article should be sourced; articles about English dialects suffer from people adding stuff based on their personal observations (frequently with dubious or badly-explained phonetics).--JHJ 16:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
For an example of what I mean, consider the bit that just got added: "In the North Riding, an initial dr or tr sound on a word can be pronounced very softly." This is unsourced and the description is so vague as to be meaningless. It may well be describing a real phenomenon, but without a source it's got to go.--JHJ 16:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, sorry for confusion and causing extra work. Feel free to cut the unsourced "different glottal" bit. I suppose it comes under "original research", given that thats how people speak but I've not seen any papers documenting it. People from Leeds and Wakefield glottalise the final consonant on both "back" and "bat" but the pronunciation is different, and clearly discernable to the listener. Not knowing enough about linguistics to be sure, I would say that you aspirate the t glottal but not the k glottal.

There are both Leeds and Wakefield recordings on the CollectBritain website. Can you find one of these with the feature you're talking about?--JHJ 16:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Where is the Wakefield one? There is one for Ossett, a mere 4 miles away, but accents do change very quickly in that part of Yorkshire. Epa101 15:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the glottal thing ties in with a point that I raised about time inconsistency above on this talk page. Some things on here are now very, very rare; the Sheffield th ---> d thing is even rarer than the "gerring berrer" thing. However, I expect that some people want the old tradition to be recognised. The problem is that we should then, for example, include the East Riding rhotic tradition; I'd say that is, if anything, still alive to a greater degree than the Sheffield dee-dah one. Then, there are probably a load of others that should be mentioned. It's worth a decent discussion, which is why I made a section for it: do we want to describe how Yorkshire residents speak today, or do we want to describe the traditional dialect? Epa101 15:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
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