Talk:X-ray

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[edit] Old

The third line on the physics paragraph refers to gamma rays as "low energy" when they are instead the highest energy region of the spectrum. I just wanted to bring up this point and let someone with better writing skills modify that paragraph.


A previous entry claimed to quote from Tesla's speech and gave him precedence in discovering x-rays. The actual speech found online says: "The taking of these photographic impressions by means of Crooks bulbs brought freshly to my mind the experiments of Lenard, some features of which, particularly the action on a sensitive plate..."

"...which made me temporarily forget my projects. I had hardly finished the work of reconstruction and resumed the course of my ideas when the news of Roentgen's achievement reached me. Instantly the truth flashed upon my mind. I hurried to repeat his incompletely reported experiments, and there I beheld the wonder myself. Then — too late — I realized that my guiding spirit had again prompted me and that I had failed to comprehend his mysterious signs. . . .But while I have failed to see what others in my place might have perceived..."

So he first claims that Lenard did it before him and then admits he didn't understand it. Rmhermen 04:59, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I believe he's referring to Lenard's finding that electrons produced by a cathode ray tube can penetrate through thin glass and extend out into the air, causing a glow. This resembles x-ray effects, and in hindsight we can see that they have a different cause.

Some quotes on Tesla's priority over Roentgen ...

1892 Tesla discovers x-ray radiation while experimenting with HV and evacuated tubes

http://205.243.100.155/frames/tesla.html

Tesla opened a new laboratory. By 1897, he had carried out investigations in the field of X-ray

http://members.aol.com/k3bu/tesla73.htm

In April 1887, he established his own laboratory, where he experimented with shadowgraphs similar to those involved in the discovery of x-rays

http://www.frank.germano.com/nikolatesla.htm

The Electrical Review in 1896 published X-rays of a man, made by Tesla, with X-ray tubes of his own design. They appeared at the same time as when Roentgen announced his discovery of X-rays. Tesla never attempted to proclaim priority. Roentgen congratulated Tesla on his sophisticated X-ray pictures, and Tesla even wrote Roentgen's name on one of his films. He experimented with shadowgraphs similar to those that later were to be used by Wilhelm Rontgen when he discovered X-rays in 1895.

http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

After a difficult period, during which Tesla invented but lost his rights to an arc-lighting system, he established his own laboratory in New York City in 1887, where his inventive mind could be given free rein. He experimented with shadowgraphs similar to those that later were to be used by Wilhelm Röntgen when he discovered X-rays in 1895.

http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/TESLA_BIO.html

There are plenty of other sources on tesla and his work on x-rays before Roentgen - reddi 22:38, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes he and several others worked on x-rays. However it was Roentgen who figured it out. He "discovered" it. Rmhermen 00:08, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Just some links ...
He also took the first x-ray photographs. - http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_hifreq.html



The Electrical Review in 1896 published X-rays of a man, made by Tesla, with X-ray tubes of his own design. They appeared at the same time as when Roentgen announced his discovery of X-rays. - http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm
Photos of Tesla's image and news articles - http://www.teslasociety.com/xray.gif
Lecture. Tesla's independent discovery of X-Ray - http://www.tfcbooks.com/mall/more/351ntl.htm
He experimented with shadowgraphs similar to those that later were to be used by Wilhelm Röntgen - http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/tesla.htm and http://www.qsl.net/dominiondx/tesla.htm

Tesla was not aware of certain characteristics of x-rays. X-rays were not discovered yet. He was just working on unknown effect of phosphorescent light and admits in the article we both quote that he did not understand it. Also you have presented no evidence that Tesla took any human photographs before Roentgen or that he ever sent any photograph to him, much less before the publication of Roentgen's work. Also "1896 in the Electrical Review" is after 1895 when Roentgen published. Rmhermen 13:32, Aug 7, 2003 (UTC)

Tesla's human x-ray photos before Roentgen: In "Tesla: Master of Lightning" by Cheney and Uth there is a very clear x-ray shadowgraph of a high-laced shoe containing a human foot, with visible bones, nails in the sole, etc. The authors state that this photo was made by Tesla accidentally. They also state that it was one of the few things recovered from the rubble of Tesla's 5th Ave laboratory fire. That fire took place many months before Roentgen's first public announcement. So, at the very least, Tesla made an accidental shadowgraph of a human body part. Perhaps at the time of the fire he hadn't yet determined how it happened? --Wjbeaty 01:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The discussion on cathode rays is pretty confusingly written and even seems to imply that cathode rays were X-rays. It needs writing clearly explaining that Cathode rays (which perhaps merit their own page) were originally thought to be rays and were only later found to be streams of electrons. High energy cathode rays can create X rays when they hit something. BozMo(talk)

Are there no articles on X-ray optics; parabolic/hyperbolic kirkpatrick baez /wolter telescopes and the like on wikipedia? :o( --Deglr6328 03:01, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Röntgen or Roentgen

In 2003, the German language was formally changed to use oe in preference to ö. This change hasn't yet eprcolated through society, and newspapers are still printing Schröder rather than Schroeder, but oe is being taught in schools in preference to ö. Since the wiki entry is Willhelm Röntgen, and the majority of the references in the article were Röntgen, I have changed oe to ö in this article. However, I believe that considering that the official norm in German is now to prefer oe to ö, the wiki should move over to the English spelling of German names. This is, after all, an English wiki, and ö is not an English character. PhilHibbs 13:45, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


"In 2003, the German language was formally changed to use oe in preference to ö."

Never heard of that and indeed it doesn't look like it's being followed. Liked to read about it. The ministers of education, who decide what's taught in schools, continue to use it. http://www.kmk.org/index1.shtml

I don't believe that any such change was made in the neue deutsche Rechtschreibung. It also seems somewhat unlikely that the spelling of names would be altered. Hence it remains, as before, Goethe but Schröder. The question of whether names should be Anglicised is a more complex issue. In that sense, certainly, "oe" is at least preferable to just "o" (no umlaut).144.213.253.14 04:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

"This is, after all, an English wiki, and ö is not an English character."

The characters are offered when editing, probably to encourage their use in names that have them. --217.230.123.70 10:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi! I am an Austrian user, and nobody (in Austria, Germany or Switzerland) is using oe instead of ö - except for describing those "Umlaut"s in other language. Since you guys don't have an "ö" on your keyboard, I believe it's ok to use "oe" instead in the title. In the article, though, i would stick with the correct german version... -- Mnolf 07:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In addition, please don't translate first names into english, will you? Eugen Goldstein is NOT called Eugene. snottily 11.09.2005

Hi, I am German and have to say (as others stated before): PhilHibbs is perfectly wrong. In the past two days, there were edits which proposed Röentgen, this is even worse than Roentgen or Rontgen. (If you are able to type an ö, why misspell the name?) I reverted them. I think, you should stick to Röntgen, see the article about Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen. --GrGr 07:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Visible x-rays?

In my opinion, the 'visible' x-rays represent phosphorescence of structures within the eye-ball, rather than truly visible x-rays. I have requested peer review. Axl 14:53, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • If I recall correctly I'm the one who added the majority of the information on X-rays being visible. I am confident that the information I provided in the paragraph at the end of the "Detectors" section is factually and historically accurate (see here:[1]) however, I share your uncertainty about the actual mechanism which makes them visible. The question being, are the X-rays inducing phosphorescence in the retina or aqueous humor itself or are the X-rays directly exciting neurons in the retina OR are they exciting (and destroying?) rhodopsin molecules in the retina conventionally and causing visual signals to be sent? I would guess that because no one is going to be repeating these crazy experiments with X-ray beams on thier eyeballs anytime soon we probably have no real way of knowing for sure so we might just add a mention of this controversy on in the article. X-rays are indeed visible, but HOW and what is our definition of "visible"?--Deglr6328 22:20, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Okay, that's a sensible solution. Axl 11:51, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] bragg

how about mentioning all the x-ray stuff the braggs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Bragg did on crystals. --ssam

[edit] Propose move to "X-rays"

The article is currently under the name "X-ray", I would like to propose it be moved to "X-rays" instead. The term "X-ray" most often refers to the image taken of an object using X-rays. Thoughts?--Deglr6328 02:06, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No - first, given that X-ray photographs (i.e. X-rays) are taken using X-rays, I can't see why the page title needs to change. But anyway, pages are generally listed in the singular, unless the plural is the predominant usage. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:01, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Right, this is why I think it should be moved. The article is firstly about the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum not the medical imaging technique and the term "X-rays" is the plural, predominant usage. Just like Gamma rays, cosmic rays etc.--Deglr6328 00:22, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
But gamma ray, cosmic ray are both at the singular. There is already a separate article on radiography. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:30, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Medical Affects/Early History

Does anyone have better information about the adverse health affects of x-rays, especially during the early evolution of the technology? Several scientists have developed x-ray burns or cancer, sometimes leading to death. Also, according to the History Channel, some scientists early on believed that they could use x-rays to change the skin tone of black people. In short, I think there could be better information about the early experimentation associated with the technology. Tkessler 00:33, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Generation of x-rays

I question the phrase: "The basic production of X-rays is by accelerating electrons in order to collide with a metal target (tungsten usually)", specifically the "usually tungsten" part. In my experience, it is rather "usually copper", although this is largely useless information, since the target varies with the application. Therefore, I propose the removal of the remark, or introduction of a list of common targets in its place. However, I must admit I have never encountered a tungsten target. Therefore I ask is this a historical fact, or a target in common use for a particular, specialised application? 144.213.253.14 01:05, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

?? X-ray TUBES virtually always use tungsten targets because of its high Z and high melting point and heat capacity. --Deglr6328 01:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, which seems reasonable. Perhaps I should clarify my position. In the course of my work on x-ray crystallography, I have overwhelmingly encountered (in both personal experience and the literature) the use of Cu and Co targets, with occasional mentions of Mo. Maybe you could mention in which field W is commonly used, since it is certainly not in (modern) diffractometers... In my field, the material is chosen according to the characteristic wavelengths of x-ray it produces, rather than the properties you mention. Indeed, as you can see in the table of common x-ray wavelengths (which admittedly I introduced to the article), W is not even present. You also highlight a further deficiency of the phrase by emphasising that it applies only to x-ray TUBES, ignoring, for example, synchrotron x-ray production.210.235.63.243 23:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it should only then be said that MEDICAL X-ray tubes use W anodes. Here [2] is an example of a device using W-Rh anode connected to a Mo-C rotor (Mo-C for its high heat tolerance but low thermal conductivity. Here [3] is another site saying "usually W", and another [http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:h6Hz1pV9ppwJ:hsc.csu.edu.au/physics/options/medical/3017/PHY962netdraft.html+x-ray+tube+%22usually+tungsten%22&hl=en[.....--Deglr6328 02:41, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with the crystallography comment. From what I gathered, copper is often used in power/single crystal diffraction studies, and the copper K-alpha peak always seems to be referenced in all the crystallography texts I've read. Perhaps the article could read "...collide with different metal targets, such as copper, in the crystallographic/physics fields, and tungsten, in medical applications." (O.K., that's perhaps a little awkward, but something like that.) Also, if tungsten is used quite often, shouldn't its characteristic spectra be listed in the table to the right? perardi 02:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Synchrotrons

The article says nothing about using synchrotrons to produce high intensity flows of X-rays. David.Monniaux 09:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Angstroms to nanometers

can the article be switch to the convention of nanometers (SI) than the out of date angstroms.

[edit] Characteristic X-Ray

This article states, "each element had a characteristic X-ray." What does this mean? Can someone who knows please edit the article to clarify? David 19:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Visibility to the Human Eye

Moved question from the article to here. Perhaps someone can answer it for 24.22.58.165. --BillC 20:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It is commonly thought that X-rays are invisible to the human eye, and for almost all everyday uses of X-rays this may seem true; however, very strictly speaking, it is actually false. In special circumstances, X-rays are in fact visible to the "naked eye". An effect first discovered by Brandes in experimentation a short time after Röntgen's landmark 1895 paper; he reported, after dark adaptation and placing his eye close to an X-ray tube, seeing a faint "blue-gray" glow which seemed to originate within the eye itself.[1] Upon hearing this, Röntgen reviewed his record books and found he in fact, also saw the effect. When placing an X-ray tube on the opposite side of a wooden door Röntgen saw the same blue glow seeming to emanate from the eye itself, but thought his observations were spurious due to the fact that he only saw the effect when he used one type of tube. Later he realized that the tube which created the effect was the only one which produced X-rays powerful enough to make the glow plainly visible and the experiment was thereafter repeated readily. The fact that X-rays are actually faintly visible to the dark-adapted naked eye has largely been forgotten today is probably due to the lack of desire to repeat what we would now see as a recklessly dangerous and harmful experiment with ionizing radiation. It is not known what the exact mechanism in the eye is which produces the visibility and it could be due to either conventional detection (excitation of rhodopsin molecules in the retina), direct excitation of retinal nerve cells, or secondary detection via, for instance, X-ray induction of phosphorescence in the eyeball and then conventional retinal detection of the secondarily produced visible light.

(Query: Is this not the same thing as Cherenkov radiation?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.22.58.165 (talk • contribs).

No, x-rays are not charged particles. they can not produce cherenkov radiation except possibly through the production of high energy electrons via compton scattering. this mechanism is not intense enough to be relevant in conventional x-ray sources.--Deglr6328 06:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photographic plate detector

As far as I can tell, this is nonsense:

"For some procedures, the contrast can have a syrupy consistency, which can be thinned by warming, and is introduced with a power injector, such as the Nemoto Injector."

I left it for now because it seems like it might be saying that contrast can be improved by warming the plate. If that's true, that's what it should say. The rest simply doesn't make sense to me (what is introduced?), and the syrup metaphor is carried unscientifically far ("thinned"), making me think the whole statement is a ruse. If there's no dissent, I (or someone else) will delete it. -- 131.111.100.48 08:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it is nonsense or not, either way I was of the opinion that this line was either out of context, badly explained or possibly incorrect. In an effort to improve the readability of the article i have erased it 129.78.208.4 08:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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