Talk:Wounded Knee Massacre

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Contents 1 2 sources? 3 Casualties 4 Title/Proper name? 5 Cleanup/tone?

[edit]

I have a source stating "more than 200 were killed", but this article insists that more than 300 were killed. Can someone else look into this inconsistancy between sources? Greenmountainboy 20:00, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I removed a passage from L. Frank Baum's editorial. The passage was indeed written by Baum, several days before the Wounded Knee Massacre, in response to news of the death of Sitting Bull. I've left a link where the full text of two editorials by Baum can be read: the first in response to the death of Sitting Bull, the second in response the the Wounded Knee Massacre. I'm not justifying Baum by any means, but a partial quote taken out of context makes the terrible things he wrote sound even worse. The editorials aren't that long, I think it better they be read in full. See: http://lupus.northern.edu:90/hastingw/baumedts.htm --Woggly 08:22, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It may seem to be a technicality, but the change made on the introduction was occasioned by my surprise when I read about the Drexel Mission skirmish. It really can be considered to be a part of the Wounded Knee campaign but one always gets the impression that the Battle at Wounded Knee was the absolute end of any group of Native Americans fighting or being attacked by any group of soldiers (or even possibly settlers). Chief.Scribe 21:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• Don't you think that this part could be moved down, though? The intro should, well, introduce - not go into techinicalities about whether or not is was the last conflict. It was the last major conflict - leave it at that. Zafiroblue05 22:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] sources?

"Some accounts claim that Black Coyote was deaf or otherwise impaired." what accounts? can we get links?

• Sounds to me like the author of that quote is drawing conclusions based solely on the "Into the West" miniseries. Quote should be removed, since no attribution will likely be found. --Dogbreathcanada 23:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In answer to this query, be assured most of the many accounts in e-space have that included, but none yet found with legitimate checkable documentation.

Be further assured that this is from the one-sided perspective of a soldier who was award one of the 20 Congressional Medals of Honor from the tragedy and thus must also be documented by other observers but Gen. Garlington, then 1LT Garlington, recounts:

"General Forsyth, kindly and pleasantly, yet firmly, demanded the surrender of their arms. While the negotiations were progressing, a young buck fired into the soldiers. The others threw aside their blankets which concealed their weapons, and poured a murderous fire into the troops, which had been posted between them and their village, following it up as rapidly as their repeating rifles could belch forth the lead. The fight raged on the flat about one hour before it was cleared entirely of Indians. Here Captain George D. Wallace, commanding Troop K, and twenty-one enlisted men, including one hospital steward, were killed; Lieutenant Ernest A. Garlington was shot through the right elbow; Lieutenant John C. Gresham received an abrasion on the nose from a passing bullet; Captain Charles A. Varnum had his pipe knocked from his mouth by a bullet; Captain John Van R. Hoff, Assistant Surgeon, received several bullets through his clothing, and twenty-one enlisted men were wounded. Father Craft, a

266

Catholic priest, who was present using his good offices to persuade the Indians to submit to the demands made of them by General Forsyth, received a vicious stab in the back which penetrated his lung. Scout Wells had his nose nearly cut off. Lieutenant John Kinzie, 2d Infantry, who was present as a spectator, was shot through the foot."

and was at least there. It can likely be presumed that the above is part of an accurate transcription found at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/R&H/R&H-7Cav.htm.

Another source is represented to have indicated, and this appears to have been obtained from 1LT James D. Mann's version, written prior to his death at Ft. Riley, Kansas on January 15, 1891 from the wounds of the Drexel Mission skirmish, supplemented by that of unknown others:

"...[Mann] watched as the Indians raised their weapons over their heads, as if making an offering to heaven. The Lakota then lowered their weapons to bear directly on Troop K, with Mann recalling, "the one with the bow and arrow aiming directly at me." "

taken from an article including Mann's version but then supplemented by

" Mann failed to mention -Black Coyote, a youth who was later recalled by his own people as a troublemaker. He stood waving his rifle, declaring that he had given money for it and no one was going to take it unless he was paid."

with the reference being: Utley, Robert D. The Last Days of the Sioux Nation. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1963. p. 212.

Clearly this version has the youth, being unlikely to be deaf if Black Coyote could truly be heard to be so declaring his intransigence, and even if deaf, well aware of the situation.

The real issue is what is the truth as to Black Coyote which is not readily revealed by e-research. There is an Arapaho Chief Black Coyote who appears to be not the same participant, but who has a biographical e-sketch available and is tangentially involved in the whole general movement.

We need a Sioux/7th U.S. Cavalry scholar, or rather at least two, one from one camp and one from the other camp, and if lucky a third one who is truly independent of the canonical and built-in biases.65.190.174.246 00:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to note that the empahsis on the Hotchkiss gun is a bit much. It was physically impossible to maintain 50 rounds/minute with the Hotchkiss outside of test ranges--the ammo weighed too much and the time delay in moving ammo from the caisson to the gun would add in additional time.  The battle at Wounded Knee was bad enough without trying to make it look like the bombing of a Vietnamese village the technologically superior Americans using their abilities against innocents who just happened to be commuing with nature, etc.  Overall, this article is clearly biased from the start to finish, and avoids the use of first person accounts and other primary source information that endangers their cherished beliefs.

I second this. And "my people" are the Sioux. But that doesn't change the need to get it right, without playing to agendas, however nobly advanced. Buckboard 11:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

The opening says...

"Approximately two hundred Sioux women and children were murdered during the one-sided conflict."

...but later in the article 153 Sioux corpses are found. Aside from being not NPOV, it appears to be wrong. BozoTheScary 22:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title/Proper name?

Is Wounded Knee Massacre a proper name - or should the article be moved to Wounded Knee massacre? // Habj 20:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see on the internet, everybody uses the name "Wounded Knee Massacre" or "The Massacre at Wounded Knee", so all with a capital M. I think this should be the correct writing, since this has become, what I believe is called in English, a proper name. In that respect, I think there are a lot of other massacres that should be written with a capital M, but are still written with a lower case m. (e.g. The Malmédy massacre) See: List of massacres... --MarioR 21:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup/tone?

I removed the "tone"-template, since there was no explanation on the talk page and it is not clear to me what it refers to. The edit summare when it was added was "the lead in particular" [1] but I see nothing wrong with it. Some articles with much more biased tone than this are considered very good. // Habj 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That "extreme prejudice" line doesn't really require an explanation does it? Also I'm suspicious that author was so certain about the soldiers being only killed by friendly fire. God forbid anyone names a primary source on the wikipedia. I'm reverting the intro to the version prior to this edit: [2]. 69.227.95.111 10:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)