Talk:World Financial Group

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the World Financial Group article.
This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute.
Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles.



Contents

[edit] Explanation of changes

Please stop simply reverting to a version that erases the inline source citations. The various elements that I have just removed have the following problems:

  1. Although many people agree that WFG's business is fraudulent, to assert that as a fact is a libel until it is demonstrated in a court of law.
  2. Although WFG shares some characteristics with a cult, it does not have sufficient to merit the description "cult-like" (consider the cult checklist compiled by Michael D. Langone, Ph.D [1]).
  3. "claiming to market" can be read to mean that the company does not actually market its products; this is demonstrably misleading given the level of complaint from people who have bought the products.
  4. "supposedly claimed" is argumentative and challenges the ability of the article's author (in that part: me). The network size is asserted by the owners of the business in the cited source, which is deleted in 'your' version.
  5. There is no reason to doubt that WFG is not registered with WGS. NASD would shut WFG in a heartbeat were it falsely claiming registration with broker. Furthermore, why would would anyone fail to register with a co-owned broker? It is my understanding that the business tends to misrepresentation rather than stupidity.
  6. "supposedly an agent of AEGON" is unnecessary qualification when AEGEON itself claims the company as its agent.
  7. There is no evidence that WFG was formerly known as World Lending Group. WLG is the business that Humphrey founded after he sold WFG to AEGON.
  8. "Claimed its founding" is another unecessary qualification. The combined effect of all these qualifications is to suggest that everything that WFG says is a lie. Such absurd overstatement plays into the hands of WFG apologists because they can argue that the article is unreasonable.
  9. Hubert Humphrey did not die in 1978. I think you may be confusing him with a politician of the same name.
  10. Financial planner is not a euphemism for pyramid seller. It is a recognised term/euphemism for sellers that is common throughout the financial services sector.
  11. Tactics employed by World Financial Group include brainwashing, cult-like, blasting pop music and parading people around on stage at phony "business meetings", much reminiscent of Hitler¹s Nuremberg Rally. False claims of "dream selling" and "financial independent" missions are also employed at meetings and WFG will hires anyone from any background but they have to pay $100 for a supposedly "background check" and sign a contract. Agents don't have any idea on what they're selling and they are told to goto a convention to see the "vision" which cost additional money. There are plenty of signs that pointed to their materialism, greed, dishonesty, selfishness in each World Financial Group cultlike meeting. may contain some facts but is couched in such emotionally charged phrasing that it is unencyclopedic. Each of these assertions must be backed up with a reputable source that is likely to have checked the information and faces material loss if held liable for error.
  12. The three additional external links are inappropriate because they are open forums.
  13. The deletion of properly cited sources is discourteous at best. The references cited in their place are more open forums and do not immediately support anything asserted in the article.
  14. Categorising the article as "Fraud" is tantamount to libel, which I covered before.

We don not need to "cite […] sources that WFG is legit" because the article makes no claim that "WFG is legit". Your suggestion that editors who seek a NPOV form in good faith does not mean that they have "probably joined WFG and brainwashed or refuse to accept the truth." In my opinion, this article is not "very POV and reads like a propoganda". It is unemotional and factual as an encyclopedic article should be. It cites its sources. The author's belief about the legitimacy or otherwise of WFG should not be apparent in the article. To suggest that other editors are "either in denial or brainwashed" because they do not share your style and because you believe them to hold a point of view other than yours is a form of personal attack. Please try to be more civil in your future contributions. You clearly have extensive knowledge of WFG so you can make useful additions to this article and those related to it if you can moderate your emotion and use an encyclopedic style. —Theo (Talk) 12:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so why do people keep deleting changes to make this article objective? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.181.30.215 (talk • contribs) .

Removing the entire article and replacing it with something entirely different that is completely one sided is hardly a good faith attempt at making the article objective. Deli nk 01:30, 23 January 2006

What you keep reverting this to is not objective and is also slander as it contains unproven allegations as fact (you cannot prove why Humphrey sold it). I tried to write a more objective one but you killed it so I put the more biased one back. Can't we compromise on neutral language? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.181.30.215 (talk • contribs) .

The article does not say why the sale was made. It asserts that the sale was made following a nationally published mainstream magazine article painting the company in a negative light. "Compromise on neutral language" is what we've tried to do here -- both positions are summarized and neither is espoused or denigrated beyond noting that, as yet, the various criticisms and allegations have not led to meaningful legal action. — Lomn Talk 18:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
For example, editors have frequently removed the sentence beginning "It is particularly criticized for..." under the guise of "compromise" or "balance", and such action is entirely inappropriate. The company is criticized as noted, and a citation is provided. No assertion of the criticism's validity is made. Thus, the statement is neutral and appropriate. — Lomn Talk 18:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

***** Bottom line....Sales is not for everyone. WFG has good products that are being presented to it's market in a very unique-genious way. If you don't like it don't buy it...any of it. But only immature people point fingers. ****** —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.120.60.249 (talk • contribs).

[edit] External references

Please Note that www.wfg-offline.com is a site of opinions towards World Financial Group. The company is currently in very good standing. (comment moved from the article to the discussion page) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.27.192.5 (talk • contribs) .

The external links critical of WFG are noted as such. I don't think they are out of place in this article. Edgar181 18:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect data

1. The article states "World Financial Group (WFG), formerly World Marketing Alliance (WMA)". This is not politically correct. When a company A acquires company B, you never refer to company A as formerly company B. For example, when Chase Bank acquires Bank One, you don't refer to Chase Bank as formerly being Bank One. Chase Bank is Chase Bank. Bank One no longer exist. In the same sense, WMA no longer exist. World Financial Group is World Financial Group. WMA was acquired by AEGON.

2. In addition to offering variable life insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds, WFG also offers term life, whole life, universal life, and variable universal life, equity index universal life, fixed annuities, equity index annuities, 529 plans, Coverdell Education Savings Accounts, Custodial accounts like Uniform Gift to Minors Act (UGMA) accounts or Uniform Transfer to Minors Act (UTMA) accounts, and many other retirement solutions and business solutions.

3. WFG does not "co-owned" World Group Securities, they are affiliated companies.

4. WFG is not "an agency of" AEGON, WFG is a Member of the AEGON Group.

5. WFG does not put "emphasis on recruitment at the expense of training". WFG emphasizes recruiting as an effort to expand and grow their operation.

6. WFG does not have "lower returns on its policies than are normal for comparable products." WFG is independent. They sell those "comparable products." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.11.247.132 (talk • contribs) .

While I'm certainly not qualified to weigh in on all of these points, several things strike me regarding this list. Some of these are factual, objective issues that can be verified and cleared up (#2-4, though listing every possibility for #2 would be going over the top). For #1, history is generally important to encyclopedia articles (this isn't a shareholder statement or company publication), so I don't see an issue here. So, to this point, these are changes that can be discussed and made with minimal contention.
#s 5 and 6 are the issues that cause reverts. #5 is a misrepresentation: the article does not claim that WFG emphasizes recruitment, etc. The article notes that critics claim WFG emphasizes, etc. This is an important distinction. The claim is sourced and objectively presented without attempting to say whether the claim is correct. However, perhaps the counter you note should be added for balance; I would find this in line with keeping a neutral point of view. For #6, I just don't understand your point. Other companies sell similar products, so the statement can't simply be written off (it is, of course, open to verification). — Lomn Talk 17:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

This keeps getting reposted even though it only contains rumors, does nothing to explain the company, is poorly written and poorly cited. Regardless of whether you are a critic or support WFG this article does nothing other than say it may be certain things. Why do we keep having to revert to this? Can't we have some actual information on both sides included and maybe just maybe some cites??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gelfling (talk • contribs) .

As for this statement, I would give it consideration except that it comes from a user with minimal history who has removed citations from the article under the guise of "reverting vandalism" ( [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]) as well as leaving {{blatantvandal-n}} on the user page of the user who reverted said removals ([7]). — Lomn Talk 17:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Attacking me does nothing to improve this article. I removed some of the libel from the article and also attempted to make changes, which were immediately reverted. As pointed out below, this article has major problems with it. Rather than waste your time discussing me I suggest you spend it on making the article better--Gelfling.

[edit] WFG not unlike any other MLM

As long as MLM companies have existed, there has always been some sort of issues with how they handle things internally, aswell as how they handle dealing with the public. I've spent a well over ten years dealing with several different companies, including Amway, Quixtar, Equinox, Cognigen, ACN, and within the last few years, World Financial Group. No, I haven't been a part of all of these companies, I think two, maybe three to be honest, but I have spent alot of time on the outside looking in. Here is my take on what the issues really boil down to. First and foremost, it's the people you deal with. Quixtars biggest issue involves and outside of the company "Tools" (Support material and seminars) business. These money from this "Outside" business is not controlled by Quixtar in any way. The people in control of the "tools" are free to do what they want with this business. You do get the good with the bad. In many cases, there is much more bad than there is good, but that really boils down to the people you end up dealing with. Crooks are all over, especially in the Quixtar business. But that doesn't means everyone in Quixtar is a crook. My most recent involvement with Quixtar that lasted until 2004, I actually searched out who I wanted as my sponsor. It ended up very good. I can honestly say from the relationship we had, and my "Inside info" that I got from this guy, that he wasn't one of the crooks. I'm not going to say his name (I'm not trying to advertise for this guy, I'm just trying to make a point based on my experiences), I will however say he is a Diamond distributer, and has much control over his form of the "Tools" business. He ran things with the "tools" business in a very fair way, unlike many of the other people in control of any "Tools" business. There was no strong arming, or talk of "If you want to succeed, then you will buy this". Instead, If he thought you should hear something on a CD, he'd loan it to you for a week. If it helped, great, if it didn't, great. IF you wanted to buy it, cool. If not, cool. After spending 3 years in Quixtar/Amway previously, this was a huge change. The group in the past did basically force feed a direct connection of "your success is linked to how many tapes you buy". Well, as for that tactic I can say this. The group I was a part of years ago is all but gone now. They are dealing with many lawsuits, and many issues. The group I was most recently dealing with, was also around the years before, and they still are now. No lawsuits, no issues. Just basically running a business "Selling soap" and other various items. Two different groups, dealing with the exact same business. What is the difference? The people involved are the difference. You will run into this in any sort of MLM or network marketing business. It does not make the business bad, it does however make the people involved bad. People can easily avoid any sort of issues by simply doing what they are told. Time and time again it is preached by the people who are trying to bring you in, that it is a "huge business", a "Multi-Million dollar business" or various other statements meaning the same thing. Since that is the case, why not take the time to research it, just as you would if you opened your own business franchise such as "McDonald's" or a "BP Gas station"? People often don't read all they have handed to them, and then cry foul later. Please don't put yourself in that boat to begin with. When the information is handed to you, please read up BEFORE you sign up. It will save you time, money, and stress. This does really apply to all MLM type businesses, including World Financial Group. Be aware of who and what you are getting involved with. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.143.136.44 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Problem with Article

The following was emailed to <helpdesk-l@wikimedia.org> Fatal problem with article: World Financial Group I understand there are many people trying to obtain information about World Financial Group (WFG) and the article about this company on wikipedia.org is not providing an accurate description of this company. Unfortunately, the article has been protected, so no changes can be made. However, it seems that even when changes are made to this article, the changes are never permanent and are removed even when it is accurate. There's several things I want to point out: 1. The image used is for World Group Securities, a separate but affiliated company. WFG logo can be found on their corporate website at www.WorldFinancialGroup.com. There should be a separate entry for World Group Securities and their logo accordingly. 2. World Lending Group (WLG) is not co-own nor affiliated to WFG. WLG is not even a registered broker dealer. Please check it under www.NASDR.com (National Association of Securities Dealers website). In fact, WLG by corporate contract cannot be in the securities business. WLG is a completely different company. 3. WFG is affiliated with World Group Securities (WGS), a registered broker dealer. You can find this information on their corporate website at www.WorldFinancialGroup.com. WFG does not own nor co-own WGS either. AEGON is the parent company of both WFG and WGS. 4. WFG offers more than "variable life insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds". This is an incomplete list of products offers by the firm. 5. The wording is confusing for the reader: "Formerly known as World Marketing Alliance (WMA), the company was founded in 1991 by Hubert Humphrey, who subsequently founded World Lending Group. Humphrey sold the company to AEGON in 2001." Which company was founded by Hubert Humphrey? Is it WMA or WFG. Which company is sold to AEGON? Is it WMA, WFG, or World Lending Group? I hate to see Wikipedia getting sued for misrepresentation by a $320 Billion company. This email has also been posted on the discussion page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.11.247.132 (talk • contribs) .

There is also no proof as to why Humphrey sold WFG. Why does this libel have to continue to be added? If this is a true comment then it needs to be far better cited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gelfling (talk • contribs) .

I'll quote from above:
The article does not say why the sale was made. It asserts that the sale was made following a nationally published mainstream magazine article painting the company in a negative light. "Compromise on neutral language" is what we've tried to do here -- both positions are summarized and neither is espoused or denigrated beyond noting that, as yet, the various criticisms and allegations have not led to meaningful legal action.
If there's legitimate libel, then please point it out specifically. Alternately, if you have a better means of citing the Money article, then by all means implement it. — Lomn Talk 18:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

How about the changes made? This makes it clear that the reason for selling was not necessarily the Money Magazine article but it does but the events in sequence. I cleaned up the NASD fine reduction addition and made it a little more neutral. However, is there any cite that shows there has been a reduction in fines?

[edit] MLM yes/no

I recently made a manual reversion of edits asserting that WFG is not MLM [8]. I did this because (1) we have sources in the article to the effect that WFG is MLM and (2) both old and new descriptions of WFG fit the general style of MLM outlined at multi-level marketing. I noted these concerns with the editor in question ([9], [10]) and, after several days without response, proceeded with the edit. Of course, it can be hard to cross paths with an IP-based editor, so I'm noting this bit here as well.

I am by no means an expert on WFG, MLM, or much else in this article. I'm merely trying to balance all the POV-pushing that this article seems to attract. To that end, if we can provide well-sourced evidence that WFG is not MLM, I'm all in favor of moving the article in that direction: certainly the existing sources have a high degree of bias to them; its just that the fundamental assertions seem to match up pretty well. — Lomn Talk 19:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third external link contains libel

This article contains the line: 'Because multi-level marketing has a bad reputation arising from its confusion with illegal pyramid schemes' Unfortunately, this article is helping to add to that confusion. By that line it would appear that the article is indicating that WFG is not a pyramid scheme. However, the external link: Rip-Off Report forum on WMA/WFG indicates, wrongly, that WFG is a pyramid scheme.(Point #4 on the page that is linked to).

This article, while having a reference to a website with obvious libel against WFG, is one that helps to discredit Wikipedia a base of encyclopedic knowledge.

I suggest that that external link be removed. - Veers

Per our policy on maintaining a neutral point of view, we seek to write articles that present all relevant viewpoints fairly without being unfairly sympathetic to any. There is a reasonably large segment of the population purporting that WFG is a fraud, so it is appropriate for us to include that viewpoint. However, since no court has demonstrated that WFG is a fraud, it is also appropriate for us to treat it as a legitimate company.
As for the external sources being biased -- that's the nature of partisan sources. We believe that valuable information can be gleaned from a biased source without accepting all information so presented. As a quick example, consider Microsoft, another controversial company. Our external links include MS's own webpage, obviously partisan in favor, and a site called "Microsoft Versus", obviously partisan opposed. — Lomn Talk 17:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-Promotion

This article seems to have quite a bit of self-promotion. The first line states they are one of the fastest growing financial services distribution and marketing organization in North America, yet there is no reference indicating this in the article. The Industry Outlook section seems only to provide validation for use of WFG. Every single line makes statements relating to some statistic, study, or forecast without any verifiable reference. The first section should be rewritten and the Industry Outlook section completely removed. Arzel 05:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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