Talk:Wolfsangel

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[edit] Eihwaz, Sigel or Sowilo?

The article currently claims it's a Sigel with a slash through it, but other sources claim that it's an Eihwaz with a slash through it. Going simply on the shapes of the runes, it seems that either could be the case. --Delirium 12:42, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

that's right. it "is" neither, historically, and it's both, since Eihwaz and Sigel have exactly the same shape. The Nazis confuse Eihwaz and Sigel (which they call "Sig") all the time anyway, and it is only in Nazi contexts that the sumbol is associated with runes. dab (ᛏ) 13:20, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not overly familiar with runes, but the Wikipedia articles give somewhat different shapes for the two: siegel is ᛋ and eihwaz is ᛇ. I suppose they're the same thing except for rotation and inversion, though. Are you sure there is no historical connection? Where did the mason's mark and the heraldric symbol come from then? The coat of arms in the image looks pretty strikingly like an Eihwaz with a horizontal slash for that to be a coincidence... --Delirium 13:24, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
? I don't follow. The Wolfsangel is a nazi symbol. What is a non-nazi context for it? Also, its obviously based on runes, Eihwaz and Sigel respectively. I think those 2 articles might well be merged, BTW. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:26, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It predates the Nazis by centuries; the image illustrating this page, for example, is from a coat of arms that predates the Nazis by quite some time. I'd say it's a non-Nazi symbol that has, like the swastika, been associated with Nazism in people's minds. It's also frequently used by neopagans as a variant of the "death rune" (and was formerly used by Boyd Rice as a sort of personal symbol). --Delirium 13:32, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, of course, but isn't "Wolfsangel" a nazi term for it, and variation of those historical roots? (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:41, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
no, see below. The shapes of Eihwaz and Sigel are identical as a Greek Ρ and a Latin P are 'identical': They are letters from different alphabets that happen to have (almost) the same shape. But you are right, Delirium, I should probably have said Eihwaz in the article, instead of Sigel. I just want to make sure we are clear that this is a geometrical, not a historical connection. dab (ᛏ) 16:42, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


A Wolfsangel does not necessarily feature a central stroke. 1 23 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1415 This article is biased.

[edit] Moved from article

The symbol, as well as the name "Wolfsangel" does not originally have any connections with runes or Germanic mythology, as is sometimes mistakenly claimed by Neo-Pagans, probably because it was put in a context of runic symbols by the Nazis. The Wolfsangel appears listed as "34th rune" sometimes esoteric contexts [1], together with the claim that it represent the "solar scythe killing the winter wolf". Both the number (the extended Anglo-Saxon Futhork consists of only 33 signs) and the mythological context have no historical basis.

This seems very POV, and likely wrong. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:31, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sam! can you just read the article, please, where I explained it all? "Wolfsangel" is not a Nazi term, any more than "Sigel" or "Eihwaz". The term is attested as early as 1714 in a heraldic context. I could have written the article chronologically, beginning with heraldry and masons' marks, it's just that today if you encounter the Wolfsangel, it will almost invariably be in a Nazi context. The symbol has also nothing to do with runes, apart from the simple fact that it used to be carved and has therfore an angular shape. Mason's came up with pretty much arbitrary signs, the purpose of which was simply disambiguation from other masons. Now, the part you removed, can you enlighten me what is supposed to be POV about it? Some people claim the "Wolfsangel" as a "34th rune", but they haven't done their research, and we are telling them here that there is no "34th rune", historically. Now what is supposed to be biased about this? dab (ᛏ) 16:42, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought we all agreed Wolfsangel was based on Eihwaz, Sigel and/or Sowilo? Those are runes, no? (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 16:56, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
no, not "based", except geometrically. The "Wolfsangel" symbol originates in the 12th century at the latest, the Eihwaz rune probably in the 2nd century. Until the 1900s, nobody associates them, and they exist independently. The Nazis (or "proto-Nazis") interpret the Wolfsangel as based on Eihwaz. Therefore, logically, neither the Eihwaz rune nor the Wolfsangel are originally Nazi symbols, nor do they have any connection, but the association of the two is related to Nazism. It's just as true that the symbol is based on Z or Ζ. Only, the Nazis didn't choose to associate it with Z, but rather with Eihwaz. dab (ᛏ) 17:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried finding solid information on this, and it seems pretty impossible to come by. Neopagan organizations pretty uniformly claim that it *is* based on the Eihwaz rune, and that this origin predates the Nazis. This is also what the Anti-Defamation League says:
"The Wolfsangel is an ancient runic symbol that was believed to be able to ward off wolves. Historically, it appeared in Germany in many places, ranging from guidestones on the sides of roads to heraldic use in the coats of arms of various towns; there is even a German city called Wolfsangel." [2].
But I can't really find solid evidence either way. No reputable source I've found has claimed that the Nazis invented the runic associations, but no reputable source has substantiated pre-Nazi runic associations either. --Delirium 18:15, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
that's right, but the symbol is not mentioned in any book on runology or Germanic mythology I have seen. Clearly, the burden of proof would be with those who claim it is an "ancient" symbol. These mythologies have sources, mostly Icelandic texts, and runestones. The symbol is not there. It is possible that in 18th century German folklore, the symbol was associated with wolves, or warding off wolves, I don't know, and made no claim about this. But clearly, there is a difference between 18th century German folklore and "ancient" Germanic mythology. dab (ᛏ) 06:28, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Its clear to me that as in all cases of this sort, we cite sources and be done with it. The article narrative should not be taking a stand on a disputed matter. If no source can be found clearly suggesting that Wolfsangel is not a rune, such a suggestion should not be present. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 10:13, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

look, many things are not runes, and it would be difficult to find references to prove it. If I claimed the Apple logo was the 39th rune, what would you do? Fact is that many Neo-pagans without checking repeat the rumour that the Wolfsangel is an "ancient runic sign". It's not "disputed" in the sense that there is any academic discourse going on about it. It's "disputed" because Intenet pagans chose to call it "runic", and I intended to dispel that myth. Find me one pre-20th century reference to the Wolfsangel as "runic" and I'll reconsider.
What is "a rune", after all? It's a sign of a runic alphabet. Is there any Wolfsangel-like symbol in the Elder Futhark? No. The Younger Futhark? No. The short-twig runes, the Anglo-Saxon, the Frisian, the Dalecarlian runes, even? No. The Viking-Age runic ciphers? No. Hell, even the Armanen runes? No. So in what way is it suggested that the symbol is "runic"? It would be very interesting to find the earliest reference to it as "runic". It will almost certainly be Nazi, or post-Nazi (I was wondering if "34th" rune was in any way related to the 34th SS division, but I think that's a coincidence, because the Futhorc has 33 runes, except, if the Nazis theorized about it being the "34th rune", it would explain why they chose it for the 34th division, but it's just as likely to be an invention of some esoteric 1970s runic divination system). You find the earliest reference of it being called "runic", and I'll be all for including it. dab (ᛏ) 10:47, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Im sorry! It was there all along! It's Guido von List's "Gibor" rune. (Armanen runes after all). So there we have it! List dreamed that the symbol was an original rune, back in 1902. I'll include that now. dab (ᛏ) 11:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Quite alright. As is often the case, I had no clue one way or the other, I came to this page not having heard of Wolfsangel before, but I could tell from what was in the article and was said in talk that this was a concern. Plus, it does kinda look like a rune ;) (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

you're being "Socratic" in a good sense now, Sam ;o) dab (ᛏ) 13:06, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, and thank God I'm better looking than he was! ;) (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:53, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's quite clearly "runic" in the sense that it is a variation of a rune. You seem to be claiming that it arose independently of the runic alphabet, rather than being derived from it, a claim that seems dubious and is not held by any other source I can find. Arguing that it is not itself part of one of the runic alphabets is one thing, but arguing that it has "no association" with the runic alphabets is a much stronger claim, and one that seems fairly dubious, as it's positing a pretty surprising coincidence. --Delirium 20:27, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Just curious, but how many different basic symbolic shapes do you think there are? Take out a pencil a piece of paper, and try to come up with a symbol that only uses three or four lines that isn't already duplicated elsewhere in an alphabet/rune/symbol in an existing culture somewhere. If you happen to come up with something that looks like a Mayan glyph, does that mean you got it from the Mayans? No. The rune is fairly minimalist and obvious, especially as it's symmetrical, and there's no reason to assume that one was based upon the other. DreamGuy 21:51, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Except that the claim has been made historically. These false amalogies about symbols we could make up ourselves would hold more water if they were about encyclopedic symbols like the Wolfsangel. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 00:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing false about this analogy. Mere resemblence of one thing to another -- whether it be pictorial, words in different languages, or whatever -- by itself in no way proves that one was derived from the other. If you know of another historical source that claims the symbol came from the rune, especially one predating the guy with the alleged vision, please provide it, but you can't just assume it did. DreamGuy 00:51, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

If I were living in 12th-century South America when I came up with such a symbol, I think it would be very reasonable to assume I got it from the Mayans. The ADL's research claims it is of runic origin. Do you have *any* reputable source that claims the similarities are a mere coincidence? If the Nazis fabricated the runic associations, I assume someone would have said so. --Delirium 01:53, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)


You wrote in recent edit note: "saying that no link has been shown is taking a side, as there is no source that denies the obvious link." That's no argument at all. "Obvious" is a clear judgment call, and it's not "obvious" if people are in disagreement with you. There are lots of things that look similar that don't have similar origins, and these aren't even the same symbol (the wolfangel has an additional line not in the rune), so you can't just assume that they came from the same origin. Asking for a source to *disprove* what you claim as if what you claim is automaticlaly correct otherwise is not a fair argument. The way it goes with any logical argument is that if you make a claim towards something being real, you have to support it. In fact the articles should never be making judgment calls, any judgment calls presented in an article should be sourced by who said it. If you have people arguing for your side, go get the references and cite them in the article.
This is just pure, objective ways of handling articles. Please refer to NPOV for more information. Until you have a source to support your side, the default text is going to say not that there *is* a link, nor that there *isn't* a link, but that a link has not been proven. That's the middle, it's fair, it's obvious, and I really don't get how you think you can claim otherwise. DreamGuy 03:16, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
In addition, the town of Wolfsangel, Germany, used the symbol as a town logo of sorts, and folk mythology held that it warded off wolves. I'll see if I can get a copy of a book on the city (there's at least one published, ISBN 1574882457) in case it gives any information on when it was named. --Delirium 02:00, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think you are basing this on Internet myths. Don't just believe Google. Where is that alleged town of Wolfsangel, exactly? Oh, you mean you didn't check. There is a town Wolfsanger, but Anger means "meadow" and has nothing to do with Angel "hook". That's right, the Bornheim coat of arms evolved into "the German town of Wolfsangel" on the Internet. Now I thought I had cleared the situation with my realization that the runic association originated with Guido von List. Look at his article. I mean, any questions? He dreamed it up in 1902. Show me any pre-1902 runic association, and we'll include that. Otherwise, I think it is pretty clear who came up with the idea. Yeah, it looks like a rune, that's what Guido thought, too. And you should be aware that many people of with an esoteric approach still take him as their prime reference, just read the reader comments on amazon [3], it's really funny, there are two glowingly positive reviews (probably auto-sorted by amazon) before there is one asking "what's wrong with you people". dab (ᛏ) 07:29, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
the book you mention is on the city of Rüsselsheim, and has nothing to do with the symbol. The coat of arms of that town includes a symbol like an inverted Eihwaz rune (again, that's just three lines and doesn't prove an "runic" association", without the central stroke, and is thus very tangential to this discussion. The only coat of arms to my knowledge incorporating the symbol is the former town of Bornheim, and was mentioned in this article from the very first version. dab (ᛏ) 08:34, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, I emailed the ADL to basically ask them whether they researched that origin or not (somewhat more politely phrased). As a reputable organization putting together what they seem to promoting as a sort of encyclopedia of symbols used by hate groups, along with their histories, I'd hope they did research before making claims, but who knows. If it turns out they just googled and summarized the top 10 hits, then they'll be much less interesting to me as a source (although still interesting as an example of how even well-known and reputable groups have accepted the claims). --Delirium 20:26, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

nice. as for "there is even a German city called Wolfsangel", have a look at multimap. They usually have every haystack in their database. The ADL info is also slightly messed up in other respects. E.g. "the symbol was also used by European groups such as the Jungen (Youth)" is mangled for "Junge Front" (Youth Front). There could be no group called "Jungen", that would be ridiculous. So, yeah, their article generally looks like hacked together from google searches. dab (ᛏ) 09:28, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How to word the intro?

The intro currently implies that the Eihwaz relationship is only used when describing the symbol "in the context of Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations", which isn't entirely accurate—it's also described as such in the context of neopagans who have nothing to do with neo-Nazis. I'm not sure how to word this though. "in the context of neopaganism, Nazi Germany, or neo-Nazi organisations" sounds a little odd, because it sounds like we're lumping the three together as being related (while clearly two of those are more similar than the third). But I can't think of a way that doesn't sound strange. --Delirium 23:50, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Whatever you do, make sure you don't insinuate that neo-nazi's arn't neo-pagan, as many (probably most) are. See Nazi mysticism. Cheers, (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 18:57, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a poorly researched claim. Sure, a portion of Neo-Nazis claim to be pagans. However, this is usually restricted to simple usage of scant runes or symbolism. Like the Third Reich, modern Neo-Nazis use aesthetic approaches sometimes taken from both Germanic paganism and Italian fascism. Christianity still remains the dominant influence. Please do a little reading before making these claims. --Bloodofox 18:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Serious Omissions: Thirty Year War, Peasants' War, Possible Bindrune?

This article places a very heavy emphasis on the Third Reich's usage of the wolfsangel with little emphasis at all on the long history of the symbol prior to it. This does the symbol no justice. First of all, I've read that this symbol has had some use in the Thirty Year War as well as the Peasants' War, which eventually lead to it being used by the Third Reich. Also, when you have two runes on the same stave, thit is sometimes considered a bind rune. As it has been noted here, the runes Eihwaz and Isaz resemble this very much, and depending on the exact historic origins of this symbol, it may not be a coincidence, particularly with the eihwaz, which I note is sometimes considered a wolf's hook on various German coats. I added some images of these coats but they were removed by Dab, which is probably for the better. What IS obvious is that the symbol dates before the 1700's, which is stated here. What this article needs is more historic background, which I'd like to assist with. Plus, a decent high-res version of the symbol to show exactly what it is. --Bloodofox 19:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

that's all very well, as long as you remember to cite exact sources for all these things. I've found all of this on the internet, too, but that's not enough. dab (ᛏ) 21:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thirty Year War & Hermann Löns

Alright. After doing a little digging to see exactly what the signifance of the wolfsangel was during the Thirty Year War, I've found some information. Hermann Löns (1866-1914) wrote a fictional novel called Der Wehrwolf (1910) which was apparently set in Northern Germany during the Thirty Year War. The wolfsangel was apparently used by the hero of the book, as a sort of badge of independance from the then ruling classes. Now, either this is a reflection on the wolfsangel actually being used during this period or this book may have sparked a revival in the use of the symbol. Some covers of this book display a wolfsangel:[4] There's an entry here about this: This may be a photo of an image from the book: [5] Amazon.de has two versions of the book for sale: [6] and [7] Anyone know anything about this? --Bloodofox 23:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I should probably note that I can't read much German. --Bloodofox 23:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

that's a good find, and we should definitely mention it. But make sure to point out that this is a 1910 novel about the 30 years' war, and not a source about the 17th century itself. As such it would belong in a "in fiction" section or similar. Note that 1910 is after List's publication, and may already be influenced by List's hallucinations. It's still true that the symbol was in use as a badge in the 17th century, see our 1621 reference, but for the "independence movement" context, you'd need a non-fictional reference. dab (ᛏ) 12:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made the entry. If you are interested, the book can be found online in German here: [8] One English translation of the book can be found here, as The Warwolf: [9] This link indicates that the book was once published as Harm Wulf, a peasant chronicle: [10]Also, a promising new English edition is apparently in the works at: [11] --Bloodofox 06:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

From the original German version of Der Wehrwolf, a footnote is given simply as "a symbol, often used as a house-mark (or private brand), which takes the following forms..." and then there are shown two versions, one with and one without the center crossbar.

In the Hermann Löns novel, the protagonist doesn't really use the symbol as a 'badge of independence from the ruling classes'. It is, rather, the ancient marker (or brand) of his family... there's a scene in which an old cast iron hearth piece (bearing the symbol, along with the date 1111 A.D.) is found by Harm Wulf's houseman among the ruins of a burned farmstead that once belonged to the clan. The band of warrior-farmers adopt it as their insignia, and use it as a warning symbol to "all those of ill intent" by carving it on trees around the borders of the region and putting it on signs which they place in the hands or on the gallows of those marauders and miscreants to whom the "Warwolves" mete out their harsh brand of vigilante justice. (R. Kvinnesland)

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