User talk:William McDuff

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 re: Template:Miyagi 2 Japanese city infobox 3 Miyagi Trains 3.1 Prefecture 3.2 Sendai directions 3.3 Japanese train directions 4 New Map Colors? 5 Map Copyright Tags Needed Immediately 6 List of Railway Stations in Japan: Are these being used? 7 Sendai Subway Template 8 New Japanese City Template 9 Asia League Ice Hocky 10 Sister Cities: List or Paragraph...??? 11 Koganesawa / Koganezawa 12 Image copyright problem with Image:Utatsu-Miyagi.png, Image:Motoyoshi-Miyagi.png, Image:Motoyoshi_District-Miyagi.png, Image:Karakuwa-Miyagi.png, Image:Kesennuma-Miyagi.png, Image:Shizugawa-Miyagi.png 12.1 Response 13 Train project for Japan

[edit] re: Template:Miyagi

Hi William - Thanks for letting me know. I suspect this format is essentially as good as any (I'd prefer something denser), but for my tastes it makes the template too large. I know Taku's tolerance for large templates is even lower than mine (he didn't even want districts in the template). How about just adding a link to the section of the prefecture article that has the town/village listing? I think we should rename this section of the prefecture articles from "Districts" to "Towns and villages" and add " District" to each of the district names in these sections anyway, but if the templates are linking to it we should rename the section first. For example,

Miyagi Prefecture
Cities
Furukawa | Ishinomaki | Iwanuma | Kakuda | Kesennuma | Kurihara | Natori | Sendai (capital) | Shiogama | Shiroishi | Tagajo | Tome
Districts
Igu | Kami | Katta | Kurokawa | Miyagi | Monou | Motoyoshi | Oshika | Shibata | Shida | Tamatsukuri | Toda | Watari
See also: List of all towns and villages in Miyagi

I've recently discovered there's some controversy about the use of meta-templates like Template:Prefecture navobox (see Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates). If editing the prefecture templates anyway, it might make sense to remove the reference to the meta-template (which is really just the table format information and the top line with the link to the prefecture article and the symbol). Another reason not to list the towns and villages in the templates is that this list is changing fairly dramatically with all the mergers going on (and having the list in two places means both must be updated). -- Rick Block 14:05, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese city infobox

Hi, thanks for your help with this for Nagahama. Photojpn.org 08:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Miyagi Trains

William, Thanks for the kind words. For the colors, I used the same as what was on the Japanese wiki for the subway and senzan, and made up something for senseki based on what I remember about the trains. I have no preferences though, so if you have a more official list, then feel free to edit the template.

Originally, I was removing the adjacent stations, but after I thought about it some more, I think that they serve a good purpose -- even with the full list later in the article, and even added it to the new Izumi-Chuo page that I made. I think it should be made to a parameterized template, though (with parameters for the previous, current, and next stations).

As for ", Sendai" I thought it would save some trouble later. If you go to the Japanese wikipedia and search for ja:黒松駅 or ja:旭ヶ丘駅 you'll see the Japanese "disambiguation" page that redirects to the various stations around the country with that name. I think Kawaramachi also has a couple of stations, and, I also think I've seen a Nagamachi station somewhere else (not on Wiki), with different kanji (but, since the romaji is the same, we'll have to deal with that). So, already we know that 3-5 stations will eventually need to be modified in our naming system, once English speakers in other parts of Japan start making their entries. My reasoning was that it makes more sense if all of the stations on the line have the same name. I didn't change "Sendai Station (Miyagi)" because its scope is much larger than the subway.

If ", Sendai" is a problem (maybe it should have been ", Miyagi" or " (Miyagi)" instead), then it is ok to revert the uniquely named stations. But, at the same time, please let me know what the names should be for Kuromatsu and the others.

Kent

[edit] Prefecture

I had never seen Jorudan -- I always used excite.jp for finding train connections for Tokyo trips, etc. I am really surprised that Jorudan also has English. Thanks alot for getting me distracted.  :-)

If I had to choose between (Prefecture) and (Train Line), I'd pick (Train Line), because that is actually why I put ", Sendai" at the end -- they are on the Sendai subway line, and although technically ", Sendai Nanboku" is more correct, I doubt that there's ever a problem between the Tozai line and the existing stations. For train lines that go through more than one prefecture, it could be confusing if they have different suffixes (especially if you don't know that Fukushima is next to Miyagi). Some travelers may not even know that Sendai is in Miyagi, but they know what train line they need to be on. And, while it does make it hard to see that "Matsushima Kaigan Station (Senseki Line)" is in Miyagi, I think that's what the "Category: " pages are for, right?

So, I guess I vote with Nameneko; but am ambivalent about ", XXX" versus " (XXX)". And, if we only keep the extension on the stations which we know are a problem, then we can go ahead and set up the disambiguation pages (with a solitary link at the present) for future-proofing.

Speaking of the new subway line, I saw a list in the paper several months with the proposed station names. Maybe I'll dig a copy of that up online somewhere, and get an early start on things.

Neier 03:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure that JR has an official color list somewhere. The Tohoku shinkansen is dark green. I don't know how accurate this page is, but it looks like a good place to start. http://www.63factory.jp/t3/jnr_colors/jre_color_tohoku.html (The problem is, that some lines have different colors, depending on if the train is an express or not; and also depending upon the exact model of the train car). We may have to find one of those train simulation programs and see if they have any info on their home pages.

I've never seen any publication that lists the Subways in anything but north->south order. Sendai has seemed to avoided the whole 上がり / 下り fiasco by making the directions 泉中央行き／富沢行き. (In Sendai, 上がり would be towards the center, and 下り would be outwards, because the whole Up- and Down- thing doesn't just apply to Tokyo.) I would prefer to see the order put back, because it matches the Ja site, as well as the order of the stations listed on the Sendai transportation page. Neier 04:24, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sendai directions

Inside the cars, it depends on which side's door you look at. If Tomizawa is on your right, then it will be on the right side of the sign above the door. If Tomizawa is on your left, then it will be on left side of the sign above the door. (hmm, that is not the best description I could give... Let's try again. Since the trains move down the left track (except for the two terminals), and you enter from the center, then if you are at Sendai station, and walk into a train headed for Izumi, then the sign of the door in front of you will show Izumi on your right, and the train will move in that direction. If you want to go to Tomizawa, then that train will also move towards the right, and the sign above the door in front of you will show Tomizawa on the right). (If you turn around 180 as soon as you get into the train, then it's the exact opposite, but I think you can get the idea now).

In the stations, the sign at each platform with the "time to XX station" is a diagonal, which goes from Tomizawa in the bottom left to Izumi in the top right. This is invariant between the two sides of the tracks. One side has the numbers (minutes) from the current station up to Izumi, and the other side would have the numbers from the station down to Tomizawa. http://www.donto.co.jp/timetable/citymetro/d_subway.html is a reasonable facsimile.

Neier 04:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm.. Justifying switching the order by saying that Japanese is right->left seems a little out there, especially since all of the other kanji reads left->right on those pages. I think you're kidding, though.  ;-)

Too bad we don't have the new numbers like they put on all the Tokyo stations a couple of years ago. I googled for Sendai station info, and came up with these that list the stations in various formats, but all in the North -> South order.

(These are the two that I use whenever I have to go to Tokyo) http://www.excite.co.jp/transfer/search/line/4/39.html http://transit.goo.ne.jp/timetable/area_code/4/line_code/45/

(These three are new, and I didn't know about them before. So, I guess this thing has some benefits after all) ;-) http://www.ekikara.jp/newdata/line/station/0402011.htm http://www.jikokuhyo.info/sj/sub/index.html http://www8.ekitan.com/norikae/Norikae3Servlet

I honestly tried to find a reference listed the other way, and cannot.

Neier 12:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese train directions

William, this debate interested me for two reasons.

• I would also begin the list from Izumi Chuo Station (because I think I usually see it written that way)
• Because I felt train directions could be rather ambiguous on some lines, such as the Yamanote Line (runs in a circle that includes Tokyo station), the Keihin Tohoku Line (runs from Yohokama, through Tokyo, and ends at Omiya), and the future East West Subway Line that will be built in Sendai.

I poked around to find something that gives the train direction rule in Japan, and managed to find it in this article from the Japanese wikipedia. It's an article for "diagram," which happens to mean "transportation schedule" in Japanese. According to the article,

• Train directions usually are based on the "closest to Tokyo" rule
• However, some train lines don't base their direction on Tokyo station, such as lines in the Kansai area (which usually use Osaka as the starting station). This is because strict adherance to the Tokyo rule would be confusing for most locals.
• When the line's starting station (or base station) is located in the middle of the line (such as the Keihin Tohoku Line), the "nobori" "kudari" names are usually not used in the first place. (If you don't know, "nobori" means a train is going towards Tokyo, and "kudari" means a train is going away from Tokyo) For example. the Yamanote line uses "uchimawari" and "sotomawari" (inner track, outer track), and the Keihin Tohoku Line uses "kitayuki" and "minamiyuki" (going north, going south)

Since the Sendai North-South Subway Line clearly falls into these exceptions, (the starting/base station would probably be Sendai Station, which is also closest to Tokyo in terms of train line connections - however, it's located in the middle of the line), I don't think it would be a problem if we begin the list from Izumi Chuo Station (actually, I would prefer to begin the list from Izumi Chuo). The Sendai City Transportation Bureau (which operates the subway) seems to prefer starting with Izumi Chuo Station, fwiw. I think this is probably because lisitng the northern terminus on the top is the least confusing for people. Atsi Otani 15:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

As much as it offends my sense of uniformity, I guess I'll go along with it. (Darn it! Everything else in Miyagi is south first! Or Tohoku line first. :) Izumi-Chou first it is then. Yes Sendai is the base station, and will be for the new line as well. (If it gets built, that is. Have to check out who won the Sendai City election, as one of the candidates was running on a stop building the east-west line platform.) -William McDuff 13:16, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

William - sorry for offending your sense of uniformity. To comfort you, I'm going to tell you a weird fact that I found out while researching the "base station" rule. The base station for the Yamanote Line isn't Tokyo - it's Shinagawa Station. I suspect that this is because Shinagawa was the first station in Japan (with Sakuragicho Station (... darn, red link - I think it's on the Keihin Tohoku Line), which was, at that time, called Yokohama Station). The ja. Wikipedia diligently lists Yamanote Line stations beginning from Shinagawa, which is pure madness, IMO. I prefer the current listing in the English Wikipedia much better (it starts from Tokyo). Another thing - JR lines should generally stick to the "base station is Tokyo" thing, but I have no idea what the private lines (eg. Hankyu, Kintetsu) do. You don't find many non-JR lines in the Tohoku region, but the Kansai region has tons of them (actually, you can't go anywhere without the private-owned lines). I rarely use trains (with the exception of the Sendai City Subway), so I pretty much suck on trains, but I'll help out with the train project when I can. Currently devoting my time to the Sendai article - killed two red links tonight.

Are you still trying to make Karakuwa a featured article? I can read Japanese, so I might be able to help write some missing things if necessary. Give me a hoot if you need help. Atsi Otani 20:29, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Map Colors?

I know that the colors for Japanese city maps were changed recently, but what if we were to change it to these colors instead of these ones to match other maps around Wikipedia. I'm just bringing this up for the sake of doing so. I'm not saying that we should go off and change everything immediately. If this is okay, then it will make coloring for individual prefectured a little easier, as the water and prefectural lines don't have to be added separately (Hokkaido map coloring is taking forever!). I was also planning to redo the city template to make it look a little cleaner, but I haven't finished that yet. I'll make sure to post it here when I do.

-Nameneko 20:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map Copyright Tags Needed Immediately

The map for Sendai, Miyagi has been deleted due to the absence of copyright information. I'm seriourly conptemplating uploading the maps under GFDL from now on. What do you think? I haven't gotten solid responses from anyone yet, but if the ja.wikipedia user isn't going to answer any questions about copyright information, there isn't much of a choice.

-Nameneko 06:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I saw that the maps were deleted. I have a solution (I think). The government ministry of land has a bunch of files available for download that includes GPS coordinates for most of the major boundaries (including the -kus inside Sendai). I managed to take that data and write a program to make a PNG -- there is a slight problem with making sure the X/Y proportion is accurate, but besides that, it is pretty simple. On the download page for the data, it states (in Japanese) that I can't pass on the coordinates in the same format, but I can make derivative works and do anything I want with them, so long as it is not in a way that is illegal or anti-government, etc. I have no problem with making my png in the GFDL, and the Japanese gov't doesn't care that I used their data to do it. Seems like a clear-cut case to me.

I can get a basic map to either of you by tonight or tomorrow, and you can color it however you want. I was also going to write a routine in the program to color it, but that will take a little more time. (part three is to encode the pngs so a click in Ishinomaki on any page's map will take you to the ishinomaki page -- but I don't know for sure if that is even possible).

Neier 10:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

My User:Neier/Sandbox has two samples. Both are 300x300, but I can make the size whatever we want.

Neier 10:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh -- and, there are also map data points for train lines and highways. I haven't looked at them yet, but it may speed up the whole process. I only got the files for Miyagi, but AFAIK, the entire country is available. Neier

[edit] List of Railway Stations in Japan: Are these being used?

Are the lists under Category:Lists_of_railway_stations_in_Japan being used by anyone? I have two concerns -- The first is the aiueo,kakikukeko, etc ordering. This makes little to no sense for the target audience of English speakers, I think. Second, it looks like the list maker got tired after A and SA because the others are mostly empty.

I think that having the categories that automatically index are better than the list with red links. For tracking which stations need to be created and whatnot, then I think the line info pages is usually a good enough indicator (or, the templates, if they're expanded to cover a large enough area).

So, do you think these pages are a good candidate for deletion?

Neier 07:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that they should all be scrapped and be replaced with lists similar to the ja.wikipedia ones, which lists them by region. In my opinion, a category (or in this case, subcategory) would probably be more fitting than trying to compile a list by hand. I'll be sure to watch for an AfD listing!

-Nameneko 05:01, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, though this has little to do with this discussion, please check this page about a dilemma with the 4000-article japan-geo-stub category.

I agree. Junk 'em for categories. In a similar vein, how about junking the Adjecent stations for pages that have a template? It seems silly when they can just look for the black link in the list below, and it's no harder... -William McDuff 09:16, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Railway_Stations_in_Japan is where I've proposed the deletion.

I mostly agree with you for stations like Sendai (where all lines have been templated), to trash the adjacent station table. The one thing I wonder about is for marking a distinction between local and rapid lines on the Senseki, for example. Showing the next stop on the express from Matsushima-Kaigan might be useful (maybe???) but, it would have the potential to balloon out of control, too. Tough question, I guess. I will support a consensus to remove the adjacent sections.

Also, is there any comment about how the Tohoku->Yamagata (and soon, Tohoku->Akita) Shinkansen template has been made? I don't think that the Tokyo->Fukushima stations need to be listed in the Yamagata template, since it would clutter stations early in the line like Tokyo and Ueno. On the Yamagata Shinkansen page, I'm going to put the template at the bottom, since the list of stations doesn't have any useful info. I didn't put the template on the Senseki Line or Tōhoku Main Line pages, because the info like distances and transfer lines is useful in the existing table, and the template would be redundant. Neier 12:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Agree on the template not being on the line page, since the table is there. As for the Yamagata and Akita Shinkansens, I'd just start both with Tokyo - As Tōhoku Shinkansen - Fukushima - Yonezawa. Though the way you did it is good as well. :) (Idle note: could you do the Kesennuma Line next? It's one of the few lines I've managed to photograph the whole thing. Need to to Matsuyamamachi and out to Fukushima as well, as I have pictures for those... -William McDuff 12:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Already started on Ōu, but I'll do Kesennuma after that. Any color requests?Neier 14:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Blue, no yellooooooow....

Ahem. Sorry. :) The Kesennuma trains are just a basic green...actually, how about a beige-y color? If you look through the doorway on Image:Eki-Wakuya.JPG, you I'm thinking the color of the top half of the train, roughly. -William McDuff 01:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Aren't there set colors for trains, though? Like, when you go to a station, how they have a strip of color next to a train's name? I know there's something like that, which is why I'm a little discontent with the current coloring (Jōban line is black??). Although this might create a little redundancy (I think the Tōhoku Main Line and Tōhoku Shinkansen share the same color...), it is a template, so I think it would be okay. I don't think the colors should be dictated by personal preference in this case.

Also, do you think it would be good to link all the stations in each template? It would create a lot of red links, but it would leave some sort of goal or reference. Besides, it alleviates having to go back and change it every time a new station article is created.

Regarding these templates, though, do you like the way they're arranged in Sendai Station (Miyagi)? I think giving each one its own subtitle is horrific. I think they should all go at the bottom without any title or division since they're already labelled and will be split apart if put right under each other anyways.

And finally, I approve of getting rid of the "Adjacent Stations" sections.

-Nameneko 05:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

If the beige train weighs the same as a duck, then the conductor of the Kesennuma line is a witch?? </python_levity>

Having the red links would be good. I haven't done them yet, because I'm not quite industrious enough to check if a given station needs (Prefecture) after its name or not. It shouldn't be too terribly difficult to check the ja site for that... And having the red links also helps prevent pages with bad station names from being accidentally created.

I originally tried to make the colors the same as the strips on the signs that I could remember. But, the color system may only be in Tokyo. Most of the smaller stations may only have JR-green. Even with as many train otakus as there are in Japan, I couldn't find a web site with a complete list of what I was looking for. (I happened to find a site with mp3 clips of every station's "train arriving" song, etc, if you're interested.)  ;-) Joban is black because I wanted it to be orange, but Tohoku honsen was orange. William and I both think that the honsen line is orange on the sign in Ueno. Like you said, they're templates, and easy to change. Nice modification on the Akita shinkansen, by the way.

And, yes, the stacked "All trains of the xxxx line" heading was atrocious. If you look at the subway template history, you'd see that I actually had the heading in the template before I realized how bad of an idea that was. Partly, the headings were left because of the stations where half of the lines are finished (Omiya Station, for example). Sendai is finished, and your modifications look fine to me.

- Neier 09:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, they're all JR green up here. So feel free to expiriment! As for making red links, I'm actually against that. I'd be happier to add them as I go along, as those red links are dang ugly, in my not so humble opinion. :) -William McDuff 09:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Template:Kesennuma Line is complete. And, because I was feeling extra industrious tonight, so is Template:Yamanote Line. I think the circle works out pretty well, but I only viewed it in Safari and Firefox. I wonder how it looks in IE. Bedtime, it is. - Neier 14:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! If it's sunny this weekend, I think I'll go finish picture taking the Oofunato Line, getting the Senmaya -> Ichinoseki section. And the Yamanote template looks fine on Safari, at least.

I think I have Oofunato and Ichinoseki ready to templatize (before Yamanote distracted me... Did I mention my short attention span? I think that's a common trait at wp though). - Neier 01:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sendai Subway Template

I redid the Sendai City Subway template. How does it look? Feel free to change anything.

-Nameneko 00:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks fine -- I like the logo in the corner. Except, William's centering doesn't look right (Firefox on Linux). I'll check other browsers when I get home. - Neier 01:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks fine on Safari, where it didn't before... ^^; -William McDuff 03:19, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

IE on a PC at work looked fine, and Safari at home is fine too. Firefox on Linux at work and my Mac at home looks bad. I'll have to see if it's a FF bug, or not.

As for the template in general, I wonder if the logo will work in the Template:Japan Railway Line template.

And, on a related note, I also opened up the Template_talk:Yamanote_Line page so we can decide if the loop gets to stay or not.

[edit] New Japanese City Template

I've created a new template for Japanese cities based off of Template:Infobox City but reformatted similar to the current one. See the example I put up at Sendai, Miyagi and put feedback either on my user talk page or the template talk page. Please don't use this template as it is currently a test and has not been approved as a replacement by anyone. Thanks!

-Nameneko 06:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Asia League Ice Hocky

Hi, I am thinking to start writing the zh version of Asia League Ice Hockey. Hopefully a native speaker will be able to do the heavy lifting. User 老尺 on zh knows a lot about sports; though he is in Hong Kong. He knows a lot about soccer, or football. I will write a note when the zh Asia League page looks ok. It should take a while. I played up to Junior Varsity Massachusetts hockey, in case you are wondering. Pothier on the Senators grew up near my town. I like the ECAC, the Oilers and the Mighty Ducks. Hope Japan is treating you well. --McTrixie 08:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Just saw the work you did on the Ice Bucks entry. I'd been thinking about doing them myself for a long time, but you did a better job then I could ever hope to have! Great work...how did you find out about them? (I used to live about an hour down the road, so made it to a few games in my time there) Kurohone 04:22, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sister Cities: List or Paragraph...???

User:Derek.cashman wants to change, and thinks, that all "Sister cities" lists in articles should be converted/changed to "paragraph" form. I don’t want to. Can you imagine a lists of 26 sister cities, like for Istanbul, and trying to read it in paragraph form? Please read my opinion and info and vote. I would really like your input! WikiDon 03:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Koganesawa / Koganezawa

William -- I'm going through the Miyagi stations to make sure all of them are named correctly at List of Railway Stations in Japan, and found a discrepancy. On the Japanese side, Koganesawa Station has hiragana こがねざわ (Koganezawa). Which is the correct English spelling? From the pictures, I can't make out an s or z on the station placard. Thanks! Neier 11:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I swapped those names. I'm now up to Iwate-ken stations, and just put Nītsuki to Niitsuki. MoS only mentions ō and ū for long-vowel macrons. Since the topic of macrons in article titles is contentious anyway, it seemed like a good idea to demacron this one. Feel free to change it back if you think I overstepped my bounds. Neier 22:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Utatsu-Miyagi.png, Image:Motoyoshi-Miyagi.png, Image:Motoyoshi_District-Miyagi.png, Image:Karakuwa-Miyagi.png, Image:Kesennuma-Miyagi.png, Image:Shizugawa-Miyagi.png

Thanks for uploading the images above. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you.

Sorry to dredge this up, but I couldn't find a {{GFDL}} tag on the jp.wiki site. Regards, Dethomas 07:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response

I'm intentionally letting the above images expire because out of April 1st they'll be out of date. After, I'll create new images from the Sendai, Miyagi one. -William McDuff 01:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Train project for Japan

FYI, there is a new project for trains in Japan at Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains in Japan. Neier 12:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)