Talk:William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke
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[edit] Changes
Just wanted to say what I did. Based on what I've read, and without having sources at hand, I cleaned up the biography in terms of wording, making it more consistent in style and (I hope) easier to read. I put in the headings as well. I did change the description of the tournaments, much as Jane says below (I did it before I read Jane's bit, lol), but that's the only substantive change, I think. Don't know about the Third vs. First Earl of Pembroke bit. They restarted these things all the time, of course. Hope everything is all right. Lordjim13 14:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Now I've incorporated the biographical information from the Earl of Pembroke page, which was originally Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. Adds some good stuff. Lordjim13 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Flower of Chivalry
Removed the "flower of knighthood" bit. It ain't history, ain't really very informative, and it sounds very much like one of them icky 19th century romantic quotes. Sorry, but let's not confuse literature (including plays and film) with history. If this needs to be a stub, let it be an informative one. JHK
- William Marshall: The Flower of Chivalry, by Georges Duby. I remember reading it in college history class. Rmhermen 09:37 Aug 12, 2002 (PDT)
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- I read it too: good book. Lordjim13 14:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] From Jane: marytrary@hotmail.com:
I have made a few edits. Ist: amended William's title, and those of his sons. He was third Earl of Pembroke (not 1st or 4th) The title had been created for Strongbow's father and held by Strongbow. William Marshall was 3rd.
2nd: John Marshall changed sides only once, and this was not the reason that he had to give a hostage.
3rd: it is misleading to say that the Empress had asked John to hold Newbury for her. Newbury was probably in fact Hamstead Marshall, on John's estate a few miles from Newbury, but might have been a temporary fortification at Newbury (see David Crouch). Either way it was not one of the two castles, Marlborough and Ludgershall held for the Empress.
4th: it is also misleading to say that Isabel de Clare brought the title of Earl of Pembroke with her. Although Strongbow and his father had held the title, it was not automatic that William would get the title or all of Isabel's lands, which were in the grant of the king. In fact it was some years before the title was confirmed, and he never did get all of the de Clare inheritance.
5th: I have altered William's job description, when in the Young King's mesnie to tutor in chivalry (see Painter)
6th: I have deleted the reference to Eleanor being placed in William's custody by Henry. I am not aware of any source for this, and since William had been sponsored by Eleanor and had supported the Young King's rebellion, it is unlikely. If true, I think William's biographer's would have mentioned it.
I have left, but am not happy with, the description of the twelfth century tournament as 'bloody hand-to-hand combat'. This is not a good description of a melée. A melée was a mock battle. The main aim was to capture members of the other side (particularly the wealthy ones) so that you could take their armour and horse and ransom your captives. It was not in the knight's interests to injure his opponent, so although injuries and deaths did occur, 'bloody' is misleading.
Sources:
William Marshal, Knight-errant, Baron and Regent of England by Sidney Painter, John Hopkins Press 1933 (available as reprint from University of Toronto Press)
William Marshal, Court, Career and Chivalry in the Angevin Empire 1147-1219, by David Crouch, Longman 1990.
Henry II by W.L.Warren, Eyre Methuen 1973.
For a more sceptical view of William's career, see - William Marshal, King Henry II and the Honour of Chateauroux, by Nicholas Vincent,in The Journal of the British Record Association v.25 n.102 (2000) (this is available on the net - if you do a search - I've lost the url)
