Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Voting systems

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It has been proposed that every WikiProject choose a single article which represents what the Project members hope each article will eventually look like, so that interested onlookers can see where a Project is heading. If this project is ready to choose such an article, please do so and link to it after the Project name at Wikipedia:WikiProject. If there are no articles ready for this yet, you may wish to focus as a group on an article which is close and/or will be relatively easy to research.

See also: wikipedia talk:WikiProject Voting Systems/archive 1, wikipedia talk:WikiProject Voting Systems/archive 2

Contents

[edit] Dispute resolution requested

Me and User:Electiontechnology have a dispute if in Election fraud there's a need for an own section for "fraud possible with electronic voting".

he/she has been deleting several paragraphs and called it "Sorting new info into correct categories": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electoral_fraud&diff=84935850&oldid=84882340

i reverted it, he reverted it. i organized it differently, he reverted it: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electoral_fraud&diff=85165101&oldid=85154959

i believe there is a number of election fraud methods unique to electronic voting and they deserve their own section, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electoral_fraud&oldid=85154959#Tampering_with_Electronic_voting


Electiontechnologys very biased deleting and editing pro voting machines without paper trails can also be seen here:

also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Electoral_fraud#What_i_am_missing

[edit] Response

I almost don't even want to encourage User:Taintain, but he just seems be ignoring facts, and I encourage any oversight. I invite anyone to see the full good faith coversation I had with [User:Taintain]], explaining his fundamental misunderstandings of electoral fraud: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Electoral_fraud#Recent_Edit His edits, much like his post here are missleading and use poor grammar. User:Taintain and I do have a dispute in Electoral fraud, but I was hoping we could clear it up rather easily. As you can see there has been dialogue and concessions on both sides so far.

In defense of my example edits so carefully picked by User:Taintain:

Notice the comment Expanded, moved some stuff, linked to VVPAT, see talk, see that talk page comment http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:DRE_voting_machine&diff=83922897&oldid=76428542
I'm not sure what this example is supposed to show. But judge for yourself!
Again, I'm not sure what this is supposed to say.
I changed: DRE systems additionally can produce a paper ballot printout that can be verified by the voter before they cast their ballot. They are sometimes referred to as Black Box Voting machines.
To: DRE systems additionally can produce a paper ballot printout that can be verified by the voter before they cast their ballot.
The wikipedia entry for Black Box Voting says "Black Box Voting signifies voting (usually on electronic systems that don't print paper ballots) which reports a result without allowing proper verification or auditability of the votes and totals." How can you say "they print a paper audit trail. They're called black boxes."

Please take at a full list of my contributions. I have no bias towards voting machines without paper trails, and I think that the most important part of any voting machine is independent verifiability and auditability.

Also, feel free to post on my talk page: User_talk:Electiontechnology, which User:Taintain has not... - Electiontechnology 20:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Response again

Very nice of you to play mr. good faith who does the oversighting and doesn't understand why i complain about you deleting and changing stuff. Yes, i do have bad grammar and no talk page but at least i'm not editing totally biased, just look at the links above.

Anyway: the only thing which i would like to be solved is a section about voting machines in electoral fraud which does not get deleted after some hours.

User:Taintain 21:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Response

I sincerely apologize if I came across in any way as disingenuous. I don't feel that I have any bias other than one towards factual information and honest coversation. I think we should continue our discussion about integrating a discussion of voting machines into electoral fraud. - Electiontechnology 23:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Example

I am really impressed with the Tennessee voting example Rob added on Condorcet's method. It's brilliant in so many ways, in providing a (visible!) rationale for the different groups of voters to have their preferences, and most importantly in providing different outcomes for different systems. I would like to transition all the single-winner systems pages away from the Andrea-Brad-Carter-Delilah examples to the Tennesee example. Are there any objections?

DanKeshet 19:46 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the Tennessee example draws away from the essential concepts of each voting system. I think a simple Candidate A, Candidate B, and Candidate C model would better explain each individual voting system. Reading the Tennessee model for Instant-Runoff Voting I thought had too much tangential content to explain IRV to a newbie. --Leep4life 01:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My work, and more examples

First, I would really like some feedback on the single-winner systems. Do you feel that the pages are better now after the work I've been doing on them? Are they accurate? Thorough? Understandable to people without a background in the subject?

Second, I want to create more examples, that, similar to the one Rob used, help demonstrate tactical voting behavior, and highlight differences between systems. It would be my preference if, like the Tennesee example, this one gave a rationale for the voters' preferences.

For the runoff pages (Instant-runoff voting and runoff voting), I would like to introduce an example like so:

41% A > B > C
20% B > A > C
10% B > C > A
29% C > B > A

In this example, there is an incentive for a few voters from A to falsely put C at the tops of their ballots, lifting C into the final runoff, where it will lose to A. Does anybody know a made-up but plausible or historical example where this could or did happen? I think the made-up examples without any reasoning really fall flat.

DanKeshet

[edit] Praise and suggestions

Slowly, but surely, I feel like this area of wikipedia has started to become very useful. I believe that it is currently the second-best all-around resource on voting systems on the web, behind the ACE Project, which is quite excellent. (And, of coure, there are tons of pages on individual systems or criteria that are much better.) Google searching finds that outside people are starting to link to Voting system as well as Duverger's Law and Condorcet's method, especially on Usenet, but also on the WWW.

So, I'd like to suggest two quick campaigns to improve the project:

  • Images! I think the Image:Sample-nz-ballot-small.jpg complements the written explanation very well. If anybody has pictures of real ballots of different kinds of elections, I think that would be a really great addition.
  • A thorough review of 142's contributions. Particularly: disapproval voting, tolerances versus preferences and the many links to these two in other articles. I have previously had these pages deleted, because I believed they were incomprehensible, though seeded with facts. (142 then rewrote them.) It's mentally grueling to be in an edit war on this alone, so I would feel much better if a few of us got together and either edited them or decided they were unworthy of editing and agreed to delete them and keep them deleted.

DanKeshet

I don't think they should be deleted. Pages with those titles should exist, and they are probably not the worst pages on wikipedia. Besides, deleting them would just be picking a fight. Rewrites would be cool, but I don't care enough about those two topics to try and help there (I'm more of a maintainer than a creator of wikipedia content, coming up with lots of new words in a row is hard work). I agree about the exessive inbound links, and have moved or removed a couple of them.

pm67nz

Images! You are so right, Dan. I hope it doesn't break local laws to take pictures of ballot papers! :) I'll see what I can find.

Regards 142 - I'll take a look at the two articles you mention for starters, certainly. If I recall, they're biased, but just about better than nothing at all - so hopefully we can tweak rather than delete. Martin 18:23, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi Dan -- Sorry for taking so long to respond. I agree fully with pm67nz. As long as the excessive inbound links get curbed, this seems fine. -- RobLa 08:02, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Complexities

Articles about voting systems should also mention their time and space complexities. -- Dissident 03:22, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I added some basic computational complexity information to the Smith criterion and Schwartz set articles. CRGreathouse 02:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My vision

Let me make my vision clear here: I want to produce occasional WikiReaders out of all these articles using the wiki-to-pdf script. It would open with Voting system, then move on to the criteria and theory, the systems themselves, the theorists, the electoral reform organizations, et cetera. In all, it would probably be about 50 pages printed. We could distribute it to voting reform groups, and they could adapt it for their purposes. For example, I could imagine an "electoral reform" caucus within a political party distribute a selected set of articles to convention delegates as a way of informing them of their options when it comes time to vote on a platform or on a reform proposal. Alternately, these could empower smaller electoral reform groups (small town reformers, say) to have correct, NPOV information on the different systems to distribute. Cool? DanKeshet 06:26, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

Nevermind, the image and table parts of wiki2pdf aren't working yet. When they are, it should facilitate easy creations of such a reader. DanKeshet 19:43, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Adjustment suggestion

As you are more familiar with voting pages structure, I suggest you take look and merge/move/list those pages where it is appopriate: Vote Simple Majority Voting Qualified Majority Voting --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:36, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] At-large voting

While adding an article on City Commission government, I noticed that at-large is a red link. I've been trying to figure out if this is already described in an article somewhere or, if not, which article would be most appropriate to include this in. Any suggestions? (cross-posted to Wikipedia:Reference desk#At-large voting). older≠wiser 19:27, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A cool example

Here is an example election which elects different winners by different methods using the same data. I found it on the Center for Range Voting puzzle page, where it is listed as "Warren Smith's improvement of one found by a high school teacher named (Brother) Patrick Carney." Perhaps we should use it somewhere.

#voters Their Vote
5 A>D>F>E>C>B
4 B>E>F>D>C>A
3 C>B>E>D>F>A
2 D>C>F>A>E>B
1 E>C>F>D>B>A
  • A wins plurality,
  • B wins plurality plus top-2 runoff,
  • C wins sequential runoff (IRV),
  • D wins Borda count,
  • E wins Condorcet,
  • F wins Approval (assuming the top-three candidates are "approved" by each voter).

(posted by Scott Ritchie)

[edit] Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles on voting systems? I know of Single Transferable Vote and Voting system as FAs, are there others? Please post your suggestions here. Cheers, Walkerma 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, certainly those two are worthy of inclusion on paper. I'll begin looking for others, and tagging them with {{ga}} Scott Ritchie 07:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IRV

Just a quick punt for Instant Runoff Voting. A lot of work has been done to this article since it was first listed here in the "articles which are a real mess" section, and I think it is now in its final stages. A few more man-hours work and we should have a featured article on our hands, so any support or contributions would be very helpful. Happy-melon 10:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Referendums in New Zealand

Hi. Currently the NZ collab of the fortnight is Referendums in New Zealand. Any body care to have a look at it and see if they can add anything? Cheers --Midnighttonight 08:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Additional Member System

Can people have a look at Talk:Additional Member System? --Midnighttonight 00:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Single Transferable Vote

Single Transferable Vote is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 22:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stablepedia

Beginning cross-post.

See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team#Stablepedia. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 03:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.

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